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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Our 5th visit to the Stately Home

1000 replies

Nabster · 23/02/2009 10:59

Here we go again.

OP posts:
ActingNormal · 07/05/2009 19:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

PinkyMinxy · 07/05/2009 20:53

AN I think maybe he has been trying to 'stir' me up a bit, which angers me. I HATE being manipulated, or 'managed' by people- maybe becuase of my parents and my siblings.

He also said my parents are not bad people, they are just very selfish and manipulative. personally think they are VILE.

The thing that upsets me is that I have realised I am almost purely motivated by fear. Fear of anihilation, fear of retribution, fear of failure, fear of rejection.

It may be that I am actually beginning to trust him. Which brings along a whole other heap of fear, and I am looking for reasons not to.

Bop Softly softly- you are absolutely right. I am finding that so many of the things I handle in our house have a connection to them. I can't see how I can untangle it all, I can do nothing about the things they have given the children, for instance.

I rang my therapist yesterday because I really didn't know what to do, about my parents 'demands' and he was very helpful- said I was to let DH talk to them. We have given them 2 dates where we could pop over to see them, at a local park. DH said all they talked about was seeing our son. They are obsessed with him. It is quite creepy.

SO thye have effectively bullied us into seeing them. They can't just say 'oh I really miss seeing you, perhaps we could meet up at xyz, what days wouls suit you?' That would be normal, wouldn't it. They are not normal. And they don't really want to see us. DH says it's like they want something in order to have it but they don't really want it, IYSWIM.The really do suck the pleasure out of life.

PinkyMinxy · 07/05/2009 21:27

I wrote that a lot earlier in the day.

Now I feel like crap. I fel like I am back to the old days with my DH ringing my mother for advice when I have had a bad anxiety attack and she tells him all the toxic stuff about how I am needy and selfish and childish and poor him, see what we had to put up with all these years.

I feel like they are all colluding again.
They are all sensible gron ups and I am not allowed to be innvolved because my feelings always get in the way.

I feel like my therapist thinks I am either making a big deal out of nothing, or as bad as them.

Maybe I am. I am. I am a hopeless case. Emotional vamppire. Narcissist, creating a 'victim'persona for myself they way my mother does.

DH has put the phone down on me tonight. I was struggling to get the children to bed- major anxiety. He is, I know, too busy. I felt like I was my sister ringing up harrassing people.

I don't know what I was thinking of having children. They are so perfect and I'm just making a mess of it with my shit.

I don't want ot argue with DH any more. I don't want to fight anybody anymore. I am too tired. I am tired of life. It is too hard and I am too spineless. Waste of space.

Oh god listen to me going on with myself.

I had a very strange dream the other night. I dreamt I was a man in a suit flying over a forest (no aeroplane, just flying) and I came to a clearing which ahd a large building in it. It was night and the lights in the building were glowing.

I cam into land, but I knew my enemies were there, and a big gang of henchmen came after me. I took off again but knew I had to go back.

Next I was flying through the building with the men chasing me. I made it to the big glass doors but knew I had to get rid of the men, so I blew myself up.
Next I am a girl- teenager maybe. I am helping people whos have been injured in the blast. There is a man holding a little girl who is bleeding from the neck. I help them and they get to an ambulance.

I am walking around and people are staring and pointing at me. I then realise I have three huge pieces of glass embedded in the back of my head.

A rescus helicopter picks me up and a man and a woman in flight gear take a look at my head. They show me a picture of it, saying, 'there's three other big scars from a previous injury, too, but we'll have to see what we can do'. And there are, three big rutt-like scars in my head. ANd then they start taking the glass out, and big clots of blood and water start pouring out of my mouth.

Then I woke up.

Sakura · 08/05/2009 03:12

Oh god, just lost a huge post Have to come back later

ActingNormal · 08/05/2009 09:24

Can't work out whether I have been bad towards DD this morning or whether any normal person would have got cross. She went into school obviously angry with me and I'm worrying that she might feel unloved. On the other hand if I let her do exactly what she wants all the time that wouldn't prepare her for the real world would it.

When I shout at DS I don't have the same guilt, I feel more certain that I've told him off for a good reason and that it was necessary for teaching him how to behave. Then I forget it and move on and feel loving towards him.

The difference must be that I feel generally differently towards her than towards him and I'm conscious that I must be careful not to show favouritism towards him and careful not to treat her as a scapegoat. I can't never tell her off though and let her get away with everything can I.

One minute I think I'm not being nice enough to her and the next I think I'm turning her into a spoilt brat by giving her everything she wants. She does get told off more than DS because she is naughty more often than him. But then I feel I'm treating them unequally.

It must prove that I do actually feel differently about them because otherwise why would I have this uncertainty and guilt? I'm thinking each time I tell her off - is it because I don't feel so much for her as for him? What if it is this and I am being wrong? How do I know if it is because of this or because she is genuinely naughty more often than DS?

I thought I was getting over putting her in the role of the bad sibling and DS as the one who must be protected from her (from my feelings about roles in my childhood) but maybe I'm not. I feel disheartened.

PinkyMinxy · 08/05/2009 09:56

AN I can understand how you feel. I am at a loss sometimes.
I get in such a state when DH tells the children off- I think I must project my Dad onto him.
Have you read that 'siblings without rivalry' book? It has some very helpful advice on how to handle feeling different towards your children.

I think feeling different is quite normal, FWIW, and I think I am far too soft with my children - I think I over compensate for feeling inadequate a lot of the time.

smithfield · 08/05/2009 11:15

.One minute I think I'm not being nice enough to her and the next I think I'm turning her into a spoilt brat by giving her everything she wants. She does get told off more than DS because she is naughty more often than him. But then I feel I'm treating them unequally.

I dont know the answer but this is exactly how I feel about ds.
The fact is I am triggered by him. I feel like he is 'so' demanding and Im sure that makes me feel like a child again who could never get anything right. I also feel controlled by him.
The other day MIL said that she thought it was his way of getting attention.
When I think about it i wonder if ive set this pattern up- He behaves in a way that secures the biggest reaction from me. I also think part of it is developmental and ds (just like your dd) is as all pfb's, having to pave the way constantly. i feel like I know where I am with dd and it doesnt phase me because its a path I've already been down with ds.

smithfield · 08/05/2009 11:37

Thank you all for your posts re my situation with dh. Everything you all wrote makes sense. that is why this thread is so vital. I dont know anyone in RL who would understand on this level, the way you ladies do.
Bop- Yes this is what my gut tells me, that I feel that uloveable inside that DH must be 'mad', bad or stupid to be with me. Its not a concious thing.
I always chased men before who did not care for me at all. Men who did care for me I found them to be flawed. Speaks volumes doesnt it.
AN and OPO- Yes definately I saw DH as my rescuer (my mother figure). He is very 'nurturing' actually, for a man and I think I saw that quality and wanted him to mother me.
Now there is seething resentment whne he cant protect me from basic things in life. Like the stresses of balancing work and motherhood...a challenge many women face.Before I returned to work I was angry he couldnt rescue me from the overwhelming demands of being at home with two kids. He can never win when I cast him in this role, becuase I am not a child and he should not have to play the role of my parent.
Just writing and acknowledging this though..Im n ot sure it's enough.
The biggest problem is that once the '..scales fall away' will dh be the man I want to be with?

I have been supressing my emotions again. I think I was trying desperatley to keep a lid on it all. Living in my...'Im alright Jack' persona. Except Im not alright.

I think a couple of the posts triggered me...someone saying about our parents being cut of from us and their GC's and just carrying on as normal, while 'we' struggle to come to terms with it all. Its 'so' painful and so sad. I dont think I can bare to face up to it.

roseability · 08/05/2009 13:47

Sorry will start by being self indulgent and getting my phone calls with my adoptive mother off my chest.

She phoned on Wednesday and before even so much as a 'how are you?' (I am 36 weeks pregnant), she started having a go at me for not phoning for a while. 'Are you going to wait for the phone call to say we're dead?' she said.

My immediate response was don't phone up and have a go at me when I am 8 months pregnant. Do loving mothers do that? I tried to explain in a calm, rational manner that I have a busy life and a three year old to look after, that I can't spend hours on the phone. Fair enough I have limited phone time for my own sanity. She complains that I used to phone her often and for long periods. However those phone calls were often fraught with tension and conflict. My DS picks up on this, knows immediately it is her and starts to play up (asks for biscuits, breaks things) and I end up having to put the TV on so that I can deal with her shit. It is not fair on him. When I raised this with her, she brought it back to herself as usual. About how it disrupts her sleep and sets off her irritable bowel. So that is more important than your 8 month pregnant daughter getting stressed and most importantly my innocent 3 year old son.

My counsellor suggested I change the way I react to them (as I will never change them, they are far too damaged) but rather than just putting the phone down, I once again tried to explain why there are difficulties and why I don't phone as often and have restricted visiting.

My father's bullying - Once again this was denied. She did admit he had on occasions said wrong things but said a lot of it is in my head, I am melodramatic. That I had a 'rosie' childhood. That in all photos I am smiling and happy and that I used to write them lovely letters about how I would repay them one day (for adopting me). She admitted she was scared to bring it up with him (because he bullies her as well). I asked why she hadn't stuck up for me. Because she wanted to 'keep the peace'. Also the fact that he bullied me into being a runner, to live his dream through me was my fault. I was a teenager, I could have given it up if I wanted.

The lies and manipulation about other family members - she once again said horrible things about my Aunty (her daughter and my birth mother's sister). I am trying to build a relationship with my aunty and she can't stand this. She feels my aunty has wronged her and should of helped her to bring me up. I pointed out that my aunty was a young woman trying to raise 2 children. My mother should have been there for her as well. My mother thinks everyone should be serving her needs. I said she stood back and let my father say horrible things about her own daughter (that she and her husband tried to poison him!). She denied she was there or that they were said.

She said my birth mother wanted me to call her (adoptive mother) mum. I know through others this is not true and probably traumatised my birth mother more (she was mentally ill). I challenged this.

She is bitter because I am about to give birth and she feels left out. This is because when I had my DS and was too weak to stand up for my own needs, I put them first. It was awful and nearly ruined the birth of my first child. It won't happen again.

Pinky Minxy - It is good to recall dreams. I definately feel they reflect our subconscious thoughts processing. You are not spineless or a waste of space. There is a huge difference between having a bad patch and needing help and being toxic towards people. Would you be able to take a complete break from your toxic family? I think you need complete space to do some healing. Do not let them manipulate you. I think a lot of us who have had difficult childhoods are driven by fear. It is because the most basic human need, of a loving mother/family has been denied. Security was pulled from under us like a rug and we have been treading water trying to obtain it ever since.

Wildandfree - absolutely right about dysfunctional families and set roles. I was 'the sporty one' - to fulfill my father's lost dreams. It is because damaged and selfish parents don't know how to conduct normal relationships with their children, through unconditonal love and seeing them (really seeing them) so they have to construct fake roles. Either to fulfill their own needs or to live lost dreams/hopes etc. It is about smashing this fake role and finding who you really are. Stuff them!

AN - I really empathise with the parenting issues. I feel guilty everytime I tell off my DS, because I fear he will hate me for it. We project our own childhood onto them, finding it hard to believe we can do what our parents did not. Due to pregnancy, tiredness and hormones I have really lost it with DS a couple of times this week. Dare I admit I smacked him on the leg, although not hard . I don't believe in smacking and hate myself. I just lost control and plan not to again. However he also gets a lot of love and attention which I didn't so I hope this will carry us through. Your brother bullied and abused you, thus you want your children to have a good realtionship. We are so influenced by our past. I know this baby is a girl and already I am placing huge expectations on a mother/daughter relationship that I have never had. This could produce difficulties in my parenting. Will I favouritise her over my DS? God I hope not. Rather than seeing it as you treating your son and daughter differently, I see it as you trying to foster a good sibling relatioship between your children.

OPO - Are you any further forward in your thoughts on dealing with your MIL/sisters? I really feel for you after what you have been through with your own parents, to have to deal with a toxic MIL as well

A few of you have mentioned difficulties with DHs. It is so true about wanting to see them as rescue figures, which might sometimes hinder us seeing them for themselves.

roseability · 08/05/2009 13:53

OPO - your Dr Suess quote is a revelation! I will remember that!

roseability · 08/05/2009 16:59

Beginning to think I should cut them out completely or restrict contact even more . At least until I have had this baby

OPO - how did you go about this? Did you just stop phoning? Did you tell them you didn't want contact anymore?

I am aware my post is so terribly self indulgent. You guys have been a lifeline for me throughout this pregnancy

smithfield · 08/05/2009 18:20

Roseability- just lost a post to you.
I've been in the same place as you are now. My mother's presence at my first birth caused no end of stress. I still believe she sent me in to labour and all the stress she had piled on me during her stay led to a very traumatic birth.
Like your mother mine is a complete narcissist. It is all about her.
I decided to keep her at bay when I got pg with dd. That was a year and a half ago and its just extended in to no contact at all. She still sends b'day cards and presents for me and the kids though.
If you decide to do it you have to think about yourself first. As in do it in whatever possible way causes the 'least' stress to you and the baby (and ds of course).
Although ultimately however you 'do' go about it your mother will more than likely up the anti (just as she is now...but with even greater force and intensity).You have to be prepared for the added stress that may cause you.
Im afraid I was not very brave and just refused contact with her. Screened calls, and when she took to calling dh, asked 'him' to tell her on my behalf, she was to back off. He acted as my buffer, and I was incredibly grateful for that.
Whatever you decide, I can tell you that 'for me' it was less stressful 'overall' to cut her out completely. I think the birth I had with dd (my second) without my mother's presence mentally was living proof of that.
Whatever I did, and however I did it my mother was never going to get it...that for me was the most painful bit.

roseability · 08/05/2009 19:14

thanks so much for your reply smithfield. Sorry I haven't replied specifically to your earlier posts, I was trying to respond to everyone.

I am so looking forward to the birth of this baby but I still don't think I can cut her out completely. Not because I think it is wrong but because I still have the fear,obligation and guilt I suppose.

However she will not get to me like last time. I am severely limting phone contact and they are only coming up for a very short stay and staying in a B&B rather than with us. Last time I spent a lot of time on the phone to her trying to justify myself and my decisions. They came and stayed in the house and it was terrible. I am more confident this time.

Sorry you are having a tough time at the moment and with regards feelings about your DH. How are you feeling today?

BTW - you absolutely did the right thing cutting your mother out so that you could enjoy your second child

PinkyMinxy · 08/05/2009 19:25

Rosability I think you are doing so well at standing up to your mother. I feel as though I am letting go of my family. Definitely my sister and brother. My mother is the 'big' issue with my family, too. The only reason my father has waded in is because mother will have been laying on her sob-story. Therapist thinks it is her upping the control stakes, but I think it is more than that- I think she genuinely believes her dramas to be real.

I guess I am doing what you suggest, smithfield, and DH is helping to keep them at arms length. At least he has put to bed the whole visiting every week notion. I am getting quite stressed at the thought of meeting them together next week. I am clinging to the thought that they are going away for a good few weeks after that. I am hoping to avoid seeing them fro a few months afterwards.

It is really strange to read you converrsation with your mother, as it sounds just like the kind of things my mother says. Especially the saying nasty things about other family members my mother knows I really like.

FWIW I think you are doing absolutely the right thing in keeping her away for the birth of your baby. I really wish I had done this. My mother made a misery of my last baby's birth. It was all about her.She genuinely convinced herself I was trying for a VBAC so she wouldn't have to 'help out' afterwards (big joke, the helping bit )

PinkyMinxy · 09/05/2009 09:29

Things with DH are not brill.

I have so much going on I think he feels I have nothing for him. Which is prolly not far from the truth .

But we knew when I started this it was going to be hard, and a new baby. This morning he was joking that I 'bullied him' into having her. I said I wasn't going to play that game anymore. Haha yes pinky is a bully lets all laugh, poor mrpinky he's so put-upon. It's the sort of thing he does in company- plays the badly done-to saint routine and I hate it. I am fed up of being cast into negative roles.

He knows he can get his own way by making me feel guilty. He pretends he doesn't do it deliberately, but he knows.

He thinks I am selfish. That it's all about me. I am actually struggling with keeping going at the moment.I was makign breakfast with the children this mnorning and at the same time I was having an internal discussion with myself that my life is worth living- that I do deserve to have a life, that my children would be better off with me still around. But it is hard to fight the negative thoughts when they are soo deep set.

SO I suppose I am selfish. It all about me. Am I a narcissist? Am I only half a person? I wish I could escape my own mind. I can see why people drink. I just want to sleep the whole time. It's a way of hiding, I suppose.

I am sorry I am talking about myself the whole time. I am just so fed up of carrying all these thoughts around by myself. Feel free to ignore

oneplusone · 09/05/2009 10:10

So many new posts since I was last on. Have had a quick read through and the thing that has jumped out at me is the frequency with which people use the word fear. Fearful and scared of saying how we really feel, because we are scared of the reaction of the person to whom we open our hearts.

That is how I feel right now. Have just texted my sister and told her how she has made me feel recently (hurt and upset) by not telling me about her pregnancy til quite late on and lying to me about her actual due date because she thought I would pester her nearer the time ie asking constantly "Have you had it yet". I have had 2 children, and am 6 years further down the line from her wrt having DC's and I am also 5 years older and wiser than her. I think I deserve to be treated with a little more respect and consideration by her, especially since I have supported her many times in the past when she has broken up with boyfriend's etc.

So I sent her a text but felt terrified whilst doing so. Terrified of what though? I was simply telling her how she had made me feel. Why should I feel so scared about doing that? Scared of her reaction? Possibly, as she can be quite venomous when she wants to be, even though she puts on a 'nice' benign exterior most of the time. (Reminds of MIL actually).

I am going to go away and think about why I am so scared of being honest about me feelings with my younger sister. Logically it doesn't make sense. I shouldn't be scared, but I was. But, "I felt the fear and did it anyway." (Haven't read that book but might look it up).

AN, it sounds like you had a "feel the fear and do it anyway" moment when you thought "sod it, i'm gonna to do it" in relation to your brother. It's only now I realise how courageous it was of you to do that, as it's the first time I have done it myself. It's a first of many for me unfortunately. Am going to have to do the same with MIL and younger sister as well and probably DH.

Middle sister has just replied to my text with mixed messages. ie saying sorry that I'm hurt but telling me it's actually my fault because I have jumped to the wrong negative assumptions. She said she told younger sister first because they are neighbours. So has the phone not been invented then? Or text or email? The days are long gone when news travelled slowly, news can now travel as fast as one would like and distance is no problem. Also she has now made up a story re her due date saying hospital gave her a range of dates and she told me the latter date but it has now been changed. But she specifically told me when she was here that they had told people due date was early oct when it was actually late sept in order to try and avoid the pestering phone calls towards the end of the pregnancy.

I could respond and get into a bit of a fight with her but I have a feeling it will get me nowhere. Her response has confirmed to me that she is very toxic. I suppose I now need to go away and work out how to set some boundaries with her in my head. I think I will probably just keep telling her how she has made me feel if she upsets me, but without any expectation of an authentic response on her part. It's a bit like the chapter on 'Confrontation' in Toxic Parents. It is more about me having the confidence to finally say how I feel rather than hoping to initiate any real sort of change in my sister or our relationship. She will only change if and when she begins to have some insight into herself and her behaviour.

PM, from reading your posts about your therapist, my instinct, based on what you have said is to feel slightly wary of him. He should reinforce what you already feel ie you are being melodramatic, making a fuss over nothing, but he should be 100% on your side, and validating how you feel. I get the distinct sense from AN's posts about her therapist that he completely supports her and validates her feelings. PM don't be afraid to find another therapist if your current one continues to make you feel uncomfortable. And I don't think he should be doing things eg to trigger you, especially if you're not ready, I think that is not right or helpful to you.

You sound in a similar situation to me and DH. DH keeps on about being sidelined by me and my issues, and neglected and that I have been setting the agenda for too long and now it is his turn to get some attention. It is very hard for our DH's to understand how it feels for us, to be looking after young DC's which is all consuming in themselves and also to be dealing with our own issues with our brains constantly in overdrive, thinkiing, analysing, realising. I'm afraid I have no real advice on how to handle DH. I have tried to give him little bits of attention when I have felt able and I suppose it has kept him going and nowadays I feel i have more energy in general as the DC's are older. But rewind a year or 18 months ago and I had NO time for him whatsoever, it was all ME ME ME.

Rose, i think it was you who asked how i went about cutting out my parents. It's a long story but basically it was actually whilst i was staying at their house just after I had had DS. I felt something had unleashed inside me and I had this enormous gut feeling that when i left their house i would never see them again. I told them this whilst i was staying there but they just thought i was hormonal and within 6 months of leaving i would be back in touch with them. It's now been 3 years and I have not contacted them at all and have never felt the urge to (apart from wanting to go round and murder them occasionally). I don't know if that helps you in any way, probably not. I just felt driven by some inner force to get away from them forever.

oneplusone · 09/05/2009 10:31

PM, I meant to say your therapist should not reinforce what you already, feel about being melodramatic etc.

It's strange how all these toxic people use the same terminology with us. ie telling us we are being 'melodramatic' when we talk about how they have hurt us so deeply. DH has used that word with me, he clearly cannot or doesn't want to understand how his behaviour towards me has deeply hurt me and he always tries to redirect the conversation to focus on all the good things he does for me. I see a real pattern and similarity emerging between all the toxic people in my life. It does help actually as it makes it obvious that it is them and not me and they all fit into the various toxic catergories described in the books, even if they are not parents but DH's, sisters and others.

PinkyMinxy · 09/05/2009 15:42

OPO I'm sorry you feel your DH is toxic. I am so unsure about mine at the moment. I want to think hee is just a normal human being and I am expecting too much. But I fear that because we have been together so long he has fallen into line with the rest of my family and tyheir opinions of me. The thing that makes me beliieve otherwise is that fact that he has always told me there was something not right with my family and how they treat me and I have defended them.

MIL are a difficult issue. It is hard to find a son who will openly criticize their mother, nomatter how awful she is. As the mother of a son, I suppose that is reassuring! But if you have a toxic MIL it is very hard.

Regarding my therapist. I know what you mean. I got an impression last week that he was hoping to reconcile me with my family in some way, that my perceptions of how they behave now are merely distorted by my chiildhood. He didn't say that overtly,it was just the impression I was getting, from comments like the one abotu my dad just making a sarcastic 'joke'.

I think this is why I have been having the thoughts again that it is in fact me who is the problem. I just wonder if he has really paid attention to what I have told him. Or maybe he just thinks I am being-as you say, melodramatic.

I do know that my family are still very bad for me, and my parents are trying to get their claws into my son. I only have to scan my old posts on here to see that they are not normal.

Maybe he is trying to force a reaction from me. Because I am getting to the point where I have so little fight left in me. The only fight I have left really is for my children. And if it's all down to me the best thing for them would be for me not to be here. And so round and round I go on the loop again.

oneplusone · 09/05/2009 18:43

PM, sadly I do think DH is toxic, he has been poisoned by his mother and her warped way of thinking and doing things. But because I can see it all so clearly it kind of makes it easier to deal with. He himself is blind to himself and to his mother, he has no insight at all.

My sister is saying I am overreacting and she has not been keeping things from me or mistrusting me. But i know what she said and am not lying about anything.

But I suppose there is an element of supersensetivity on my part about my sisters being close and leaving me out or me being an after-thought or 'add-on' to their plans. I assumed this was another example of that and am still not entirely convinced otherwise. I think my sisters need to make an effort to allay my fears of always being left out or excluded from their little twosome but I have no hopes that they will make the effort required. I think i should just steer clear as much as i can. Easier said than done.

Was thinking about the Dr Suess quote. It sounds so simply and easy but is actually very hard to put into practise.

"Be who you are...." I had no idea who I was until i had got quite far down this journey. Before that i was just acting at being me without even realising it.

"Say how you feel.." Again hard for me as often i know i am feeling something but find it very hard to identify and articulate exactly what I am feeling and why.

"Those who matter won't mind.." Ok that one's easy....

"Those who mind don't matter." This is actually very hard as the people who are likely to mind and reject what you tell them are going to be parents/siblings/DH's. ie those that do matter or have mattered most of your life. To then come to terms with the fact that they should not matter to you because they have rejected your feelings and not taken them seriously is very very hard. I for one cannot just tell myself I don't care if my sisters for examply don't take my feelings seriously because I do care and I do feel very hurt if they don't seem to care about me. It takes a lot of hard work to detach enough from somebody who you want to care about your feelings but who doesn't, to truly feel they do not matter to you.

oneplusone · 09/05/2009 18:47

Actually I was not even acting at being 'me', I was acting at being a random person, acting how I thought a female of my age and background should behave, there was nothing of me in it all because I had no idea who me was. Gosh, that sounds truly mad doesn't it?

smithfield · 09/05/2009 21:30

PM- You sound really down? I dont know if this will help, bur I want to say that having read all your posts it most definately is not you!
It is dreadful having to wade through all these feelings. It is especially hard wwhen you have such young children and are feeling so unsupported.
Even without all the issues surrounding your old family, being a mother is not easy. You do well to cope as you do.
Even now I have issues grappling with the emotions that arise from emotionally seperating from my family. I still have my.. 'is it them or is it really me moments.'
It helps me sometimes when I am feeling like this to 'make' myself rationalise. Ask yourself if you would behave in the same manner towards your children, as your mother does to you.
Take a look at the facts as well. I mean if it was just you then why is your sister the way she is?
I agree wholeheartedly with what OPO said. If this therapist isnt making you feel supported then find another. You are paying him to do a job and that job is for him to make you feel supported, understood...to feel right and validated.
With regards to your DH, do you feel you could put issues around him to the side for the time being? I just feel you have so much to cope withy atm. Could you just think you dont know where the land lies with him but will come back to it after you begin to feel more detached from your family?

roseability- Do not feel like you have to or should reply to me. I just hope my post helped you.
I really feel for your situation because it is not easy.
Your mothers behaviour is not normal (as you are aware). The phonecall you had reminded me of the kind I would have with my own mum. I would beg her to drop certain topics because I could feel myself getting more and more worked up (when pg) she would not stop would just carry on like a dog with a bone. Her only concern is, and always will be for herself.
I understand only too well the FOG, still get it now (although no where near as bad now as before).
You dont have to see it as cutting her out altogether, even now I dont see it as that is what I have done. Instead I am 'taking a break from her'. Could you think about it that way? That you are taking a 'pause' from your relationship with her for the time being.

roseability · 10/05/2009 12:18

Hi all. I am so tired and irritable today. I know a lot of it is to do with the late stages of pregnancy but people are really bugging me. I am home alone after driving from MIL's (we stayed there last night) under pretence that I had to let cat in! DH and DS are still there. Just needed head space and a good cry after an insensitive comment from MIL. I normally have such a good relationship with her and I truly believe she is great but she was bugging me this morning.

Maybe I am projecting what happened with my mother onto her? I am taking a break from my mother. I will be getting caller ID so that I can ignore her phone calls if I choose.

PinkyMinxy · 10/05/2009 13:06

Smithfield Thank you.

I am feeling quite down, yes. I have been readingover some of my old posts and it has made me realise how far I have come in such a short time. For instance today we are packing up to stay with a friend whilst our house is rewired, and I am up to the brim with anxiety. But at least I know I am, now, instead of just thinking I can't do it, I can't cope etc. I knwo they are 'bad thoughts' instead of the way things really are, IYSWIM. DH has asked me to pack the clothes and things and go to our friends with the dc whilst he sorts all the rest out- as he also knows my anxiety is through the roof.

re my therapist I am a bit unsure, too. I have one more session with him until he goes away for 3 weeks, so I will put my worries to him and see what he says? If I have the courage, that is.I think I am scared he will say he can't help me and I feel take it as rejection, or confirmation that I am in fact a narcissitic loon like my mother.
My NHS referral is still going ahead, I just have to wait til my name comes to the top of the list.

Rosability I think it prolly is a hangover from that very stressful exchange with your mother. Well done you for making your excuses and going home for a break- I don't knoiw about you but I would feel obliged to stay in situations like that- and 'soak it up', so it is good that you are taking care of yourself and diffusing the situation. Is this what is meant by 'knowing yourself' do you think?

I have that caller ID thing on my phone, and it has taken quite a bit of my telephone phobia away.

DH and I have been talking a bit about my sister. SHe has had lots of different sorts of therapy- but as DH says, we only ahve her word for it, adn we don't know how much she actually attended. There are so many lies. Little ones- like the fact that she used to say she bought the clothes for the DC and DH's presents, when actually her DH had told mine that they came out of surplus stock from his old shop! The amounts of money she earnes from each job she does varies from convo to convo too. And she tels DH one thign and me another. And how much of what my mother says is true?

BopTheAlien · 11/05/2009 00:19

Interesting how many people on here talk about feeling bad to the core, or words to that effect. I thought it was only me for a long time. Having worked on it, I've realised that that feeling of being truly bad is what my parents should have felt, because they were the ones doing something truly bad, but it ended up being me feeling it instead of them. So I took on their guilt, as well as being the victim of their cruelty and neglect.

Wildandfree, I was very interested in what you said about the roles in your family and how rigidly defined they were. Denial of who you and your sibling(s?) really were, even when confronted with evidence to the contrary, eg your IQ test. To me that was a great example of just how solid and impenetrable denial is, how it resists all logic and reason and even irrefutable proof. There's a documentary called "Capturing the Friedmans" about a guy who was ultimately jailed for abusing a lot of young boys he was tutoring. There was a stack of child porn magazines about two foot high in his home, but when they first arrested him and showed this to his wife, she actually, literally couldn't see what they were, even when they were put right in front of her. She herself said this, later on (once divorced), that at the time she just couldn't see what these images were, her denial about her then husband was so complete. And I think that same phenomenon happens in a lot of families, in an invisible, intangible way. The truth is completely irrelevant, when placed next to the need of the family group to keep the status quo intact, if the existing family dynamic is beneficial to most members of that group.

Which I think is one reason this stuff is so absoulutely crazy-making. I feel like I'm dealing with a bunch of people who in the rest of their lives place a very high premium on the truth, on provable reality, empirically tested facts - but who in the context of their own family are dominated by an unconcsious lie so huge that it beggars belief. And they have convinced themselves that that lie is the truth and nothing will persuade them otherwise. This apparent adherence of theirs to the truth really had me coming and going for years, because I really thought that if I could only find the right arguments, put things into the right words, give them enough reasons, that then they would understand and believe me. NO! They will never deviate from the course they are now on, and while it still breaks my heart some of the time, having recognised that fact intellectually at least is very, very comforting and useful to me.

Another thing about them is that they are champions of the dispossessed in every other arena - strong sense of social justice, fair play, on the side of the underdog, campaigning for various things, trying to right wrongs etc - my father now volunteers for a human rights organisation. He cares about people in China, but he refuses to recognise my suffering or his major part in it, not to mention my mother's and brother's. It's so screwy it's absurd: there he is writing letters to foreign presidents about some poor bleeder he's never met, getting all hot under the collar about how they treat people unfairly, saying what other people should and shouldn't be doing; but he's got no interest in justice for his daughter whatsoever. He in his own home was a pathetic little tinpot dictator of the worst order, accountable to no one, and always, always right, no matter what the evidence to the contrary.

I don't need these people in my life. I did actually tell my father I was ashamed of him the last time we met/spoke, but the words bounced right off him, less effect even than a fly. He doesn't have to listen to anything I say if he doesn't like it because I'm just a stupid little girl, and he is my big, strong father-man. Wanker. Oh, sexism was another thing they were big on in theory - anti-sexism that is (though back in the day of course the word hadn't yet been invented, we were still in "women's lib" territory then) - and again it was laughable, my mother worked full time AND did all the housework and cooking and childcare, and got treated like a moron by my father; and they totally favoured my brother and let him walk all over me - but they believed in equality, of course they did.

AN, thank you for your comments about my mother, you're absolutely right - she does need or did need to keep me dependent on her to compensate for her own feelings of inadequacy. She needed me to be small, because she has no genuine self esteem at all, it's all front. Also I've been thinking about how the family needed me to be a loser. There was all this trauma, really bad trauma like the death of my "sister", but they didn't want to face or feel any of it themselves - they wanted to be "normal" at all costs. But the trauma had to come out somewhere, so in order for them to all be very functional (and in everyday life they all are), I had to be completely dysfunctional. I was the "trauma container" as well as the poison container. I really was their safety valve, I've known that for some time now, but it's still coming home to me just how deeply set this pattern was/is in me. Someone else talked about imprinting - good term. My imprinting was definitely to take on all the trauma and almost to be it. My life was a perpetual trauma. I had to feel it, try to contain it, and take responsibility for it. Even though the traumas I was coping with weren't actually my own. So I couln't actually ever resolve them, come to terms with them - how can you recover from a loss that you never actually had but that you carry with you and feel in every cell of your body? I grew up - I probably even grew in the womb - knowing on some level, feeling on some level, what it is like to lose a child. I have that knowledge, that sense of deepest, ultimate loss, hardwired into me. I lived with that as my daily bread all through my childhood and for decades beyond. And it wasn't mine.

It's very late. There is so much more I want to say on this subject but I'm glad I've managed to get this far (and I know it's a long, long post already!)

Rose - I have to say that whenever you say something about your adoptive mother (biological grandmother, is that right?), something inside me shrivels. It all sounds so, so dark, really bad. To me it seems like first she compromised her daugher's/your real mother's sanity, and now she has the same disregard for your wellbeing, and that of your DCs. I just really - oh, I just hope you can keep as much distance as possible between her and you. I'm worried about writing this, it may be clumsy of me, but - I know you're fighting to get some space from her and I really, really support you in that.

Pinky, I always got called melodramatic too. My mother is superbly melodramatic and it sounds like yours is too. PROJECTION PROJECTION PROJECTION!!! No, it's defnintely them, not you! I would say the same to every single person who posts on here, in fact. And also, re the melodramatic thing - if I got upset when I was a child, they called me that and so completely invalidated it - and then when I tried as an adult to bring up my childhood unhappiness, they told me I was a perfectly happy child, I think Pinky you have said the same - and yet we DID try to show them the unhappiness, even with all the pretending we had to do (and I was in denial to myself about the vast majority of it), and they just rubbished it, like they rubbished everything they didn't want to hear. It's that family denial again, sees and hears and remembers only what it wants to.

Big hugs to all you brave women on here. Rah!

Sakura · 11/05/2009 04:31

onepluseone, I am in exactly the same place as you regarding your DH. I confuse him with my father and my parents. I am totally confused as to how much I see the real him and how much of him was constructed by me ( I met him on the rebound and was in a very bad place at the time). I also feel quite certain that he has no idea who the real me is at all and so I feel sure he can't really love me for who I am, when he doesn't know who the hell that person is. MIL is a psycho so I know this must have influenced him.
He will say strange things that are relevant to the converstation but just not correct, such as: "your handwriting is very neat, isn't it", when I have atrocious handwriting, like a scrawly spider. So who on earth is he talking about? Who has the neat handwriting? Its not me!
After DD was born I also came to the realisation that the person full of honestly and integrity was someone I had constructed in my head; the real DH is a little different. I think that if we divorced for example, and his mother fought for custody of DD (God knows what rights the father's family has here in JApan) I suspect he would support his mother rather than consider what is best for DD i.e to be with her mother. The horrible irony is that if we divorced I was would never dream of cutting DD off from her father, because I understand how important that bond is and how much they love each other.
But then there are other things he does that makes me see he is not my parents. For example this writing competition. The award ceremony is about a month after the birth of my second baby and DH has been totally supportive of me going back to the UK, he thinks its a great opportunity for me. He has taken time off work to come with me so he can help with the kids and look after them so I can maybe do some workshops or something. So I feel he can actually see me as a person in a way that my parents never could.
On the other hand, I do wonder how much of this support has come about because he is playing into his own image of being a fantastic husband i.e how much of it is for his own ego. I very often get the sense from him that he thinks he is pure white and I am the mad, bad one in our relationship. SO when he helps me, like in this case, there is always a lingering sense of something not being quite right, as though he is forced to suffer my whims and he does so much for me and he has to put up with me. Then again, all of that could just be me and my suspicious mind. However it is what I feel and I am starting to trust how I feel a lot more than I used to.
Someone else wrote that their DH thinks they have turned all feminist. My DH thinks that recently I believe I am always right. But I said, no, its just that these days I don't automatically assume I am in the wrong, like I used to. I believe there is a possibility that I could be right, and DH finds this new certainty of mine difficult to handle.

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