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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Relationships

Our 5th visit to the Stately Home

1000 replies

Nabster · 23/02/2009 10:59

Here we go again.

OP posts:
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ActingNormal · 24/02/2009 16:13

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twoluvlykids · 24/02/2009 20:33

Thank you for the links, Attila.

I really dare not post, I cannot lift up that plaster to see the evil festering mess.

It's too hard to do it.

I've been coping (sort of) for over 30 years.

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PinkyMinxy · 24/02/2009 21:22

Twoluvlykids. I am nearly 40 and only just beginning to deal with things. If that helps.
I thin it's just to do with when you are ready. My new little family has been my trigger.

AN thank you.

I don't know about your questions, I am not qualified to say. My gut feeling says no, thye don'tget 'cured'. I think some learn they can't trust themselves and live very carefully.

I have suspicions, about my bad feelings about myself. I have questions.

Everything is very strange for me at the moment.

The feelings that the faults are with me are so strong.. so embedded in myself, in who I am. I cannot imagine what it would be like to not feel this way.

I too feel like my childhood tatooed and invisible 'kick me' sign on my forehead. I cannot set proper boundaries, and those who know how/want to exploit this have done.

And I have always blamed myself.

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AttilaTheMeerkat · 24/02/2009 21:39

twoluvlykids,

Re your comments that I have put in quote marks:-

"Thank you for the links, Attila"
You're very welcome

"I really dare not post, I cannot lift up that plaster to see the evil festering mess".

The sticking plaster needs to be changed to let the air get to the wound and start the slow and long process of healing and reclaiming your own life. You are truly deserving of reclaiming your life back from the toxic parenting/abuse of whatever nature that you received. It was not your fault that this happened.

"It's too hard to do it".
Small baby steps are needed, you posted here and that was a small baby step. You can do it!!. You deserve a happy and fulfilled life.

"I've been coping (sort of) for over 30 years"
Over 30 years is a long time to be alone with all this from your past.

I hope you post again.

Attila x

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toomanystuffedbears · 24/02/2009 21:41

Thanks Pages,
I am glad you are doing well. (Contact with emotional detachment.)

I ordered the book; thanks for the suggestion.

I completely get what you mean about being treated as if you are invisible. As my mother treated me and in the process trained Middle Sister (why do I capitalize that??) to treat me that way...except then I got into a belief pattern where I thought everyone treated me that way. So I behaved invisible.

I don't do that any longer, but it seems like the role of my life has been cast with in the community and I don't know if anyone will notice that I've changed. I guess it doesn't matter if they notice or not, but it might go a way towards getting RL friends, iykwim.

My middle sister has not called me for nearly a year. I mentioned before that I called on Christmas and had a superficial chat for 10 min. Everyday that goes by is more validation and clarity that I was invisible to her and only there to be degraded for her superiority complex. I put a stop to being used that way and in her black and white world-I am out. The truth still kind of stabs a bit, but I'd rather be out than treated like a child/doormat.

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Pages · 24/02/2009 22:28

Hi Attila! And TMSB! Not sure what you meant about contact with emotional detachment... do you mean me or you? I am very emotionally attached to you all even though I don't make it on here very often. You all propped me up when I was falling over big time, and I won't ever forget that... hope being here helps you too, twoluvlykids...

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electra · 25/02/2009 11:05

Hi everyone. I haven't posted for a while but do tend to lurk. I need to get some counseling to deal with my issues but I'm thinking expressing stuff here is probably very helpful.

'I please her when I do something that reflects back well on her, when I agree with her about something or when I praise her. She rejects me when I behave in any way that does not support her good opinion of herself.' - this is exactly true of my mother too.

'Were anyone else's parents adept at 'bursting your bubble'? If I felt good about anything my folks would see it as their role to make sure it didn't go to my head, they felt duty bound to put me down.'

Yes! Absolutely. I was never allowed to feel too good about anything - there was always someone better apparently. They wanted me to do well, but if I was doing too well, or developing any kind of self-confidence I was soon brought down a peg or two.

'Nice people are good at things, but they don't know it' - was something I was often told.

Lately I have seen my mother doing the same toxic stuff to dd2, who is 5 For example, sometimes dd2 gets upset and won't tell any of us why and my mother will say in a loud voice 'It's ridiculous' to which I repy 'It's NOT ridiculous to her and I will not let you deny her the right to her feelings and for her to feel able to express them'

I am hoping that if I undermine her behaviour in front of dd2, she will not be damaged by it like I was. I was treated the same way. I remember being 9 years old, and one day I felt very introspective and sulky. I wasn't even behaving 'badly' but was just very quiet and clearly not in a good mood (probably just hormones!). I was called 'a miserable cow' and treated with contempt all day. Why couldn't I be like so-and-so who was always cheerful.

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ActingNormal · 25/02/2009 12:27

Electra, I think this is brilliant:

"I repy 'It's NOT ridiculous to her and I will not let you deny her the right to her feelings and for her to feel able to express them'"

I think you are brave to be able to be assertive and say something like this and it is wonderful that you are protecting your DD and standing up for her rather than giving in to some kind of fear of your parents and avoiding confronting them to protect your own feelings. You have put your DD first and I think this is really good. (I wish my parents could have done the same for me).

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PinkyMinxy · 25/02/2009 13:51

electra it is seeing the way my lotehr interacts with my DC that lifted the veil from my eyes.
This is a good example:
one time when walking down the street, DS didn't want to hold her hand, he wanted to hold mine. My mother said 'well I don't love you anymore and I don't want to be your friend.' DS was very confused. I said to DS don't worry, gran is just having a tantrum. This mad mum v. angry. she said I was undermining her authority ..WTF??

DS is 3, BTW.

My mum says strange things like - it doesn't matter what you do to small children, they won't remember.

I was always told what a happy child I used to be- they don't know what went wrong etc. etc.

Sorry got to go bacl later.

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ActingNormal · 25/02/2009 14:13

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PinkyMinxy · 25/02/2009 15:33

AN don't feel bad about writing so much.

Does it come back to the fact that he is not your responsibility? Is that not just part of the messed up relationship between the abuser and the abused- 'I need you to keep me sane, to protect others from me?' that is making you feel this way.

I have realised that 'normal' families do not feel this conflict- ie guilt over persuing your own life. It has been a recent revellation to me.

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toomanystuffedbears · 25/02/2009 15:36

Hi Pages,
I meant detachment for contact between you and your mom; but thanks for your message and same here.

I really, really, really don't think I could have figured out any of this with out your (and everyone's) insight and support and a bit of a kick in the pants: I still remember your comment to me: "Why on Earth would I continue to put up with that?" You will always be in my thoughts too, with best wishes for you and your immediate family.



I am happy now.
I am going through all of the stuff in my house and getting rid of the junk that has been depressing me for years just by being there (I want to use the space in my home better). A lot of things from my parents...it is just time to get rid of the past. I know what you mean, Acting Normal. I want to live in the present with new expectations for the present that have nothing to do with the past but everything to do with "now".

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wildandfree · 25/02/2009 16:56

Gosh, took ages to get to this thread because of the title. My father was narcissistic and my mother was very unassertive and insecure. They spent a large part of my childhood involved in dranatic arguments, break-ups with my father disappearing for years on end to pursue other relationships. Strangely, they came back together in their mid 50s.

I kind of came out of the other side in my 20s because my mother started finding a way of coping with my father, principically by completely getting on with her own life. Also she loved us kids even if she found it hard to show sometimes.

Anyway, the past has come to haunt me following the death of my mother a few years ago. It is bitterly ironic that my father is the surviving parent and I find myself daily fighting with the (mostly negative) emotions that thinking about him provokes in me.

I have tried so hard with my own children to put their needs first and not let them go through what we went though.

My siblings are sort of in denial about what we all went through, probably because it is so painful to deal with the fact that my father was such an appallingly immature selfish man. On the few occasions when he came to my school, he flirted wildly with the attractive teachers and made fun of me.
Arrggh!!!! I have almost forgiven him as I now can see that he was driven by huge insecurities. Even so, he was a crap father.

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oneplusone · 25/02/2009 20:02

AN, i doubt very much if a year of group therapy in prison will enable your brother to change. The only way he will change is if he goes through a process similar to the one you and I and all the others on here are going through. Intellectually and emotionally and I suppose systematically going through our histories and feeling the repressed pain and anger and hurt and releasing it forever. I think it is the same with our parents, my counsellor says my parents will never change unless and until they address their own childhood issues because it is these issues which underpin their abuse/neglect towards me. My counsellor thinks, and I agree with her that it is probably too late for my parents to start addressing their own issues, but I think it is not too late for your brother. Perhaps you could point him towards reading some of the books on toxic parents and Alice Miller? I don't think he is your responsibility, but if you can at least point him in the right direction, that would be something. It is then up to him whether he has the courage and determination to endure what we are going through in order to recover and heal from the damage done to him as a child.

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oneplusone · 25/02/2009 20:17

wildandfree, welcome to the thread. Well done for posting. It's hard at first but please post as much as you can, absolutely everyone on here thinks at first that their 'stuff' is not as bad as other people's, or it's trivial and they are fussing over nothing.

PinkMinky, my blood ran cold when i read what you wrote here:"My mum says strange things like - it doesn't matter what you do to small children, they won't remember." As that is the rule i think my parents have lived by all their life. And also the thing about always being a happy child and your parents not knowing what went wrong later. That describes my situation EXACTLY. I am sure my parents thought I wouldn't and didn't remember what they had done to me when i was younger and i too must have appeared as a happy child despite all the abuse i was suffering. And so because i appeared fine and able to cope with it all, they really couldn't understand why, years later, at the age of 36 I decided i never wanted to see them again for the rest of my life.

It is one of the things that has always bewildered me, how they seemed so non-plussed when i finally did the right thing (for me) and cut them off completely. As if they hadn't actually been there whilst the abuse was going on, as if somebody else had been abusing me and they were completely unaware of it. But they were the abusers and the perpetrators, they were there during every second and every minute of the horrible terrifying memories i have of my childhood. And I really do think that they believed that i wouldn't remember what was done to me, especially if they never mentioned it and i was never allowed to mention it later when i was older, i think they thought it would all just be forgotten. It would have been very convenient for them i suppose if somehow it all was forgotten, it's like getting away with a murder, because somehow it has been forgotten with the passing of time.

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geordieminx · 25/02/2009 21:48

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ActingNormal · 25/02/2009 21:53

OnePlusOne, thank you. What you said seemed really obvious when I read it but I hadn't thought of it! If my experiences are similar to his and therapy has really made a difference to me then maybe it can to him! (If he would do it, and if he would say the things he needs to say to a therapist.) Do you think men are different to women in what helps them? He does seem to have some scarily similar thoughts and feelings to me sometimes though. (Scary because I am not like him in that I would NEVER do the type of things he has done.) This has given me more to think about. Thank you.

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oneplusone · 25/02/2009 22:49

AN, you're welcome. It's easier for an outsider like me to see things more clearly than you can yourself perhaps. Alice Miller has an article on her website, under 'Flyers' I think called "The Roots of Violence Are Not Unknown". Have you read it? It may be of help to you and your brother.

I have wondered about whether men need different types of therapy etc. I wonder also whether it is harder for them to 'access' their repressed feelings in the first place. I notice that for many women having children often is a 'trigger' for releasing long buried childhood emotions, but of course men do not have that particular 'trigger'. I'm just thinking aloud, I don't have any answers. But, i regularly read the 'Reader's Mail' section on AM's website and there seem to be equal numbers of men and women writing in with all the same types of queries/experiences etc, so men can be helped by therapy I'm sure.

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oneplusone · 25/02/2009 23:05

I have a weird kind of realisation tonight, that I don't need to see or be in regular contact with my sisters. And I have realised that being in contact with them/seeing them is like a form of torture for me (sorry to be melodramatic, couldn't think of another word), in that they are a constant reminder of what I didn't have as a child but what they did have from our parents, about how much I have suffered, both as a child and now, including in a physical way because of all the various physical symptoms i have had which they do not have. Sorry, i know i'm not explaining myself very well, probably should think it over before posting, but seeing or talking to them is kind of like re-opening the wound i am trying to heal. Everytime i have contact with them, even if it is pleasant, i am reminded of how different 'they' and 'I' are even though we are all sisters and grew up in the same house with the same parents. The reality is they and I are worlds and worlds apart in every way and we are never going to meet, in the middle or anywhere else.

I think i am gradually working my way (emotionally) towards accepting that my life changed forever when my dad started abusing me. Or probably even before that when my middle sister was born and my mother abandoned me in favour of the daughter who she found easier to love.

I have said already seeing my sisters is bad for me, i think now it's not because they are toxic like my parents, but just because seeing them and knowing they haven't been through any of what i have been through, either as children or now, is a constant knife in the wound. I always feel upset in some way after seeing them, or even receiving a text/email from them, no matter what is said. I think now it's because they are a constant reminder of the unfairness of it all, that it was only me who has had to suffer and not them, when i was no different to them as a child and had done nothing wrong, nothing to deserve the abuse from my dad nor anything to deserve to not be loved by my mother. Sorry, I know i am not making a lot of sense, just needed to get some stuff out of my head.

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ActingNormal · 26/02/2009 11:35

OnePlusOne, I will have a look at that Alice Miller thing, thank you. I could print some of it off and send it to my bro as well couldn't I, because I'm allowed to send in papers with letters (when I get a printer that doesn't keep stopping working!).

Your last post really does make sense to me about contact re-opening wounds! That is exactly how I am feeling about contact with my parents and brother at the moment, but it is all a bit raw since I've been having therapy. If we come fully to terms with what happened and start feeling ok about it will it stop being painful to have contact? Maybe seeing them could be a kind of useful measuring device of how far we have progressed depending on how bad the contact makes us feel (or is that masochistic gibberish born out of me not having the guts to cut anyone off!?)

And I can really see how seeing your 'normal' sisters with their 'normal' lives who don't have to live with and contain the same 'demons' as you would make you feel a lot of bitterness and feelings of how unfair the world can be. Especially if their attitude is 'oh get over it, it wasn't as bad as you make out and we haven't let it affect us' because they find it hard to see that it could have been any different for you because they can't feel what that feels like because it never happened to them.

When I was a teenager and I started to realise that other people's families were different from mine and other people didn't have to go through the things that I did which I had come to see as normal, I started to become angry. I wonder if seeing your sisters makes you feel the way I did then.

Other people seemed confident and happy with their self image and I felt that some of them looked down on me for being a 'weirdo' or not as confident as them and were laughing at me and not understanding why I would 'choose' to be the way I was (I think "I don't choose it you idiots (them), what would you be like if the same things happened to you?!"). I felt angry that they would think like that when they had a 'head start' over me by having loving families in which they weren't being humiliated or hurt or touched inappropriately. I thought of course you are going to be more confident when you don't have to go through all that and your parents are being loving and telling you how great you are all the time and bolstering you up rather than ignoring you even when you are asking for help and dismissing you and never expressing any positive feeling (or any feeling). I used to think if you knew what it was like for me you might not think the way you do, but I didn't feel I could talk about what it was like for me back then. It seemed sordid and something that should be kept secret that I was ashamed of. I was always trying to act like I was as 'cool' as the others but with the feeling that they might find out the real me and be disgusted and full of contempt. I couldn't relax and let my feelings show too much in case they saw the real and crap me.

I was angry for a long time that everyone else seemed more important than me, it was in their 'aura' and mannerisms and they were being treated with more respect than me. This 'aura' makes people less inclined to target them for abuse, but like PinkyMinxy said recently, when you have been taught not to value yourself by crap parents your aura gives off some kind of 'scent' or something, some kind of sign that says "Kick Me" and people who are abusive pick up on it and target you. I could never work out why I seemed to have gone through several bad experiences of a sexual nature with different people and why this happened to me but didn't seem to happen to other people. It seemed like they could see that I was so shit and unimportant that it was ok to treat me that way and it reinforced this view of myself each time it happened. And I did think it was my fault for allowing it to happen because I was weak. But I now think it is because of the vulnerable 'aura' which abusers look for in people and target.

I feel more angry towards my parents for this than the people who did it, who just seem like irrelevant people not worth thinking about. If they had instilled a confident aura in me I wouldn't have been targetted! I really did believe that I WAS less important than everyone else, not just that I had been made to feel that way when it wasn't true. I've just had a comforting thought actually, that if I bring my children up with plenty of love and praise and encouragement and treat them as though they are important, they will have a confident aura and it is less likely they will be targetted by abusers. I am really scared of the thought that this could happen to them and have a horrible view of the world being full of abusers everywhere you look.

You can see you are doing better with your own children than your parents when you think back to things you have done in the last week with your children eg cuddling them and making them laugh, and think - did my parents do that - No. Or when you praised and encouraged your kids eg when they were doing drawing or going up a climbing frame in the park and you think, do I remember my parents ever doing that - No. Or when you explained to your oldest child that if they do x to their younger brother then that is bullying and doesn't make them feel good and you know how it feels from what you told me happened to you in the school playground the other day and you didn't like it so it is not nice to make your brother feel like that is it. Did my parents ever talk to us about how you should treat other people and explain anything like this - No. Maybe if they had explained this to my brother from a young age.... Or what about when your child tells you about another child being horrible to them and you ask questions to find out exactly what happened and then say to them something like It was wrong of her to do that and it is bullying, if she does that again, say to her Don't do that, I don't like it, and if she doesn't stop, say If you keep doing that I will tell a teacher, but if you are scared to tell a teacher you could take a friend with you, or tell Mummy and I will talk to a teacher for you. Did my mum ever try to find out exactly what happened - No, she was too 'scared' to find out. Did she ever explain to me what I should do to protect myself - No. Did she ever offer to do anything herself to help me - No. She just said in an annoyed voice "Oh, take no notice" and didn't want to talk about it any further.

Wow, people's posts seem to be sparking off loads of thoughts for me at the moment! Thank you everyone for sharing your stuff because it makes me think of new stuff all the time from different angles and sometimes useful ways of thinking come to me which I wouldn't have thought about otherwise.

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electra · 26/02/2009 12:59

ActingNormal - thanks for your kind comments I'm prepared to do anything to make sure my dd doesn't end up like me - lacking in confidence and direction and with a skewed self image. I think any kind of negativity is bad for a child in any context, but the damage is most potent when the parent is treating the child like cr@p and the child believes the parent is perfect but it's all they know.

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electra · 26/02/2009 13:00

I meant 'because' rather than 'but'

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ActingNormal · 26/02/2009 16:47

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vezzie · 26/02/2009 16:55

Acting Normal - sorry to hear about this turmoil.
How could he know to look on here for stuff about you?

I don't know enough to advise you about your questions about risks, but I just wanted to answer your post and let you know I am thinking of you.

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ActingNormal · 26/02/2009 17:04

Vezzie, he doesn't know to look on here! That is how stupid I am being! I feel so paranoid and scared and I'm thinking he could. I used to have nightmares about thinking I was away from him, having left home and moved away, but then in the dream he would suddenly walk through the wall and be there in the room with me and I felt that I would never be able to escape from him. This makes me sound like a deranged nutter doesn't it!

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