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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Relationships

Our 5th visit to the Stately Home

1000 replies

Nabster · 23/02/2009 10:59

Here we go again.

OP posts:
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sparklycheerymummy · 19/05/2009 12:04

Hi everyone, I am new on this thread and am ploughing through some of the stuff on the other threads. LAst year I had computerised CBT after realising that my toxic parents had created a woman who was not actually the person she wanted to be. The CBT was a fab starting point and reading the book 'Women who love too much' helped but what has helped me most is finding my brother after 33 years. We were never very close then he finally opened up and admitted that he was having therapy for an adiction that was rooted back to our parents and he needed to know how I felt. After many tears and discussions we realised that though our addictions were different we both had the same deep rooted issues..... our parents. I WAS a relationship addict..... in and out of bad relationships looking for what I had never got as a child, finding men I could 'fix' who were already 'damaged' (and usually abusive) so that then they would love me forever. I am still daily dealing with my parents but things have changed and I no longer seek their approval or really want much to do with them. HOwever its an ongoing battle as they will not admit any fault.... when I told my mum I was having CBT she simply said 'well at least you will have someone to listen to who might be able to sort you out'
Oh and I always get the 'But we put you through university to get a good degree and now you are throwing your teaching away to just be an assistant!' grrrrrrrr
I love my job and it means I can also be a good mum so stick that up you bum!!!

I am reading what everyone ele is posting so please dont think I am not bothered..... just wanted to say hi and that I am here!!!!

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oneplusone · 19/05/2009 11:41

rose, I know how you feel. The other day when MIL was over and so were my sisters, when MIL was saying goodbye to my sister, she said to her "Give my love to your parents" whilst I was standing right behind my sister. I was so annoyed as it was so tactless of her and what made it worse was that she was being so fake. She has never had a good word to say about my parents, from long before i cut them off and to make out to my sister which she did from her tone of voice that she was so sad that she didn't get to see my parents anymore because of evil OPO, I was just fuming afterwards.

Sorry, that is actually quite different to your situation with your friend's wedding/grandmother, but what you wrote just reminded me of what happened to me.

It's har to deal with, i don't really have any advice. I just know that MIL is a nasty, evil, false, toxic, bully and I am so much better than her. Your friend was probably just being polite and felt she had no option other than to invite your grandmother into the wedding, i'm sure she wouldn't have wanted to cause a scene at her wedding. But i can totally understand you feeling hurt; however it is your grandmother at fault here, not your friend, i think she only did what any polite, decent person would do. Your grandmother should not have been there and certainly should not have phoned you afterwards in the way she did. It just shows how selfish and toxic she is, you would be quite justified in being very angry with her. Don't be down, be angry with your grandmother.

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roseability · 19/05/2009 10:51

So sorry I am not replying to posts the way I would like to. I am reading them but my brain just doesn't seem to be able to engage at the moment.

An old school friend of mine got married at the weekend. I couldn't go due to being pregnant and it was in my home (I use that term loosely) town 200 miles away. My parents decided to hang around the registry office, to see the bride. They weren't invited but were there 'just by chance' (a load of rubbish!).

My grandmother/adoptive mother just phoned and made a point of telling me what a fuss my friend's father made of them, that they were all pleased to see them and they insisted they went in to watch the ceremony.
I feel like phoning my old friends and telling them how upset I am. I have talked to them about my issues. Why do people insist in being nice to them when they know how much they have hurt me. It really gets me down.

It also fuels their belief that it is in my head, that they have done nothing wrong and shouldn't apologise. It really sets me back when I begin to feel like I am making progress

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roseability · 19/05/2009 09:53

RCB, welcome to the thread! It has helped me hugely so I am sure you will get a lot from it. Keep posting

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Sakura · 19/05/2009 01:04

RCB, yes welcome to the thread. You sound as though you have done a lot of thinking things through already but I hope this thread can help.

Oh, I too have to comment on what Bop wrote about being forced into the confrontational role. This was me too! The image of my mother following me around the house to pick fights and then pointing the finger at me when I'd react. My father does this too. He HAS to have an argument with me. He is an intelligent man but honestly-the lengths he'll go to to have an argument with me are astounding. He's even argued points he knows are wrong, just to get me to argue back at him.

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ActingNormal · 18/05/2009 14:56

...I feel like I am becoming more like my DD the more I feel better and happier with my life! So maybe I can try to identify with her in that way?

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ActingNormal · 18/05/2009 14:47

Sorry, I am going to type loads about today's therapy session just in case any of it is interesting/useful to anyone and to 'revise' it into my mind by writing it.

A letter from my brother has made me feel deeply sorry for him again and his feeling of loneliness and abandonement and unwantedness. It makes me want to forget everything bad he has ever done and love him like a mother could whatever bad things he did or does. Then I 'tell myself off' because I realise this would probably not be healthy for me. I feel there would be times when it would get too hard and I would feel angry and resentful (the 'what about me' thing).

I have had the urge to rescue people for most of my life, who seem lonely, unloved, unnoticed, misunderstood, unappreciated and excluded from 'the cool gang'. I want to give them all that they never had. This may seem kind and caring but deep down I think it is something I feel will make me feel better. The things I want to give them are the things I want myself. I think I've felt unable to do it for myself because I feel unimportant and undeserving but it has seemed easier to do it for other people. It was the next best thing to doing it for myself. I think I've also done it as a kind of statement to the rest of the world that "people like this deserve to be valued even though you think they are inferior to you because they don't have a 'cool' image/'peergroup status'. Maybe you wouldn't have the self confidence you have if you had been through the same experiences as them". I used to have such anger at all the other 'normal' kids who seemed so much more important than me, especially if they acted like I was inferior. I think it is also a way of telling myself that people like this - people like me, deserve to be valued. If I think they deserve it maybe I will convince myself that I deserve it.

Several times I have got into 'rescuing' friendships and have given a lot of myself at the beginning, but then I have found that the person got very demanding, wanting more than I could comfortably give, and I felt a lot of pressure and felt overwhelmed. I've felt they were controlling my life, taking over my life and manipulating me. I'm wondering whether I was trying to do an impossible task because probably nobody CAN give them all that they never had. I'm always saying the only people who can give you unconditional love are your parents and if they didn't then you have missed out on it permanently. I have started out intense friendships thinking I can give unconditional love and then realised that the person is doing things I don't like and I DON'T want to act as though that is ok. I don't want to not help people at all so I suppose the thing to do is to help a bit but not do so much that the person becomes accustomed to that level of giving and then starts expecting it all the time and more until it gets too much for me. In some cases I feel what I did was wrong by them because I ended up having to detach from them when it got too much for me and this has been hurtful to them. One of these people I feel I have hurt is my brother. I should never have promised him so much and made him think I would do so much when as it turned out it was too much for me. I feel like I've partially abandoned him and the guilt feels hard. I have to remember that there is a limit to what I can do and I shouldn't make people think I will do more/be more than I am capable of.

Therapist said "Rescue yourself". But, I said, "How?". I would have to talk to myself like some nutter! Then he started asking me a load of questions about where I grew up and what sort of house I lived in and what my bedroom was like. I see now that he was getting me to visualise the scene. Then he got his EMDR buzzers out, got me to hold them and then started describing a scenario. He told me to imagine myself the way I am now, strong, confident, capable, knowledgeable etc, getting in my car and driving to the village I grew up in (the driving would be a problem but he said we will talk about that another time). I park outside my parents' house, let myself in to their house, go upstairs to my bedroom, and there in my bedroom sitting on the floor as I did for hours is a small girl - the girl I was. I sit down next to her, put my arm around her and tell her everything is going to be ok and I am going to look after her now. I am not going to let anyone hurt her any more.

People have talked about imagining this sort of scenario in books I've read and on here but I haven't been able to focus enough to do it properly and couldn't feel it before, but when Therapist took me through it the PAIN I felt shocked me. I also felt SCARED and really sad and so alone. In the scene the girl didn't see how anything was going to change and couldn't see that being rescued was something that would ever happen. She was bitter and in despair. I said to Therapist "I've got to get her out of this house and away from these people". He said, "So take her away from it". I took her to my car and drove her away, back to my house, and she lives with me. I said to Therapist "Won't they try to get her?" and although it was only an imagined scenario, I felt scared. He said "You won't let them". I would do everything I could to protect her and keep her with me and if anyone bad came near her I would "Scream and shout and fight" and there would be things I could do which I can do as an adult with knowledge and power. I started to feel relief coming over me. I was thinking of this little girl, as a separate person from myself and seeing her and I felt "I can do this for her and I will! It is what she deserves and it is what I want for her". I have felt courageous and confident in helping other people in my life and I can feel this for her too. I can give her such a nice life, so much better than where she has come from and it will be the hugest relief. This feeling of strength and certainty that I can rescue that small girl and I WILL rescue her seems to make me feel less fearful generally - that is how I feel in the world - generally fearful and anxious, but when I was visualising that scene the fear eased! How has Therapist managed to make me feel it when I just couldn't when I tried to do this kind of excercise myself! I wonder what effect practicing this visualisation will have.

Therapist then asked me to think of a place where I felt safe and relaxed and good and inspired. This was very difficult because I just couldn't think of one. He suggested the top of a hill with nice views but this thought made me feel fearful and lonely and angry. Eventually we came up with a nice imagined place that I would like - a trendy art gallery with a mixture of different art styles which is a mixture between a gallery and a cafe because you can sit comfortably and drink coffee and a small snack/cake while looking at the art around you. I want there to be some people there who are interested enough in the art to talk about it with me and enjoy it with me. DH and my friends are in there with me and I feel part of a lovely group, just being together and not alone. All our children are in a play area section where they can't damage themselves or the art or knock over drinks etc. There is somebody nice who I trust watching the kids. I can see them from where I am and hear their happy and excited voices while they are playing with their friends. Occasionally they come over to see me then go back and play. I'm thinking there should also be a music room there where you can go off and practice your instruments with people for a bit, playing together and discussing the music and an art area where you can do some art. Therapist said there are big strong bouncers on the doors and they won't let anybody in who I don't want to be there. He also made me hold the buzzers while we talked about this scenario. It felt nice. He was talking about learning to self soothe so I think he means for me to imagine this scenario when I want to feel soothed. I know it probably sounds like mumbo jumbo but the buzzers do seem to 'get it into my head' more.

After that he wanted to show me a diagram he has shown me a few times before. It is about a baby or young child, playing, then occassionally going back to his/her mother for reassurance that she is still there to look after him/her and that everything is safe. if the baby gets the reassurance he/she goes back off to play again, feeling secure. If the baby doesn't get the reassurance he/she feels panic. Therapist thinks I never got sufficient reassurance and therefore feel the world is unsafe and feel anxious. I imagine this is true for lots of you on here as well. He said you were born looking for this reassurance and continue to look for it if you don't get it and some people try to fill the gap of not having it with drugs, alcohol, sex, abusive behaviour towards others etc. There were some other bits in the diagram but we started talking about sex and then time ran out. I think his point which links this to the EMDR stuff was that if you didn't get this reassurance then you don't learn how to self soothe and you feel anxious etc.

So that was all today's session (sorry if that is boring for other people).

When Therapist said "That little girl lives with you now" during the imagined scenario, my DD came into my head. Except she does not fit into the 'role' of that girl in the scenario. The one in the scenario is very small for her age, timid, quiet, scared, has little confidence, feels unimportant and sad. My DD is tall for her age, loud (at home, quieter at school), expressive, confident, feels important enough to DEMAND what she wants ALL the time, she explodes with anger sometimes and gets moody but in between those times she is happy and excited, not sad and despairing like the girl in the scenario. She IS in the 'cool gang' at school. She does not need rescuing! I can see that this is all good! BUT, I don't know how to love someone like this! I DO love her, but I don't feel I know how to show it. She is like the other 'normal' children I felt jealous of and angry with when I was a child. And I've always felt that the 'sad' people in my world were the ones who were deserving of my attention. But my DD is NOT 'sad' but she IS deserving of my love and attention. I find it easier to love my 'softer' DS who Therapist says I identify strongly with. Maybe DD is so different from the way I was that I find it hard to put myself in her place and feel who she is and this makes it harder to bond with her. I wonder if it would help if I thought about rescuing that small girl in the EMDR scenario, bringing her home to live with me, then her confidence grew and grew and she became like my DD and I feel so relieved that she is the opposite of that scared, lonely, sad, unimportant-feeling little girl now. She now has everything I wanted her to have.

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oneplusone · 18/05/2009 14:31

RCB, hello and welcome to the thread. So glad you have been courageous enough to post on here. It sounds like you are on the right road. x

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oneplusone · 18/05/2009 14:29

So much food for thought on here since I last posted.

Bop, thank you for your post, so much of it struck such a loud chord with me. It's almost as if reading your post pulled some of my subconscious thoughts into my consciousness if that makes any sense.

I totally understand what you said about having grown up as the scapegoat. You don't realise you are a scapegoat, you think all the things your parents think and say about you are actually true. I grew up thinking I was inferior and not as good as my 2 sisters, that i was 'defective' in some way because i didn't get on with my parents like they appeared to. I can also relate so much to what you said about your parents, in my case it was my dad, making me appear to the rest of the family as if i was the angry, confrontational, bolshy one and that it was my personality to be like that and nothing at all to do with the way he treated me and provoked me into having arguments with him.

Thinking about him in this way brings out my anger once again and my guilt at hating him because he went through a difficult time with his own family just fades away. Even if he did go through a hugely stressful period with his siblings was no excuse to take out his rage and hatred on me, when i was only 10 years old. And the one thing that always stops me feeling totally guilty and sorry for him and what he went through was that years after his difficult patch, when he had clearly gone past his acute psycho phase, he didn't go back to his quite kind, loving former self pre his psycho phase, he became a very cynical, cruel man and would always make nasty little digs at me every now and then to ensure i never shrugged off my role as scapegoat/black sheep within the 'family'.

Sakura, we do sound like we are married to very similar men with very similar MILs. The last line of your post made me think. As I'm sure DH considers himself the 'favourite' within the family and in theory it makes sense that he would be the favourite as he is doing well in his career, unlike his younger brother who is going nowhere fast, his sensible, responsible and his parents never have to worry about him doing something silly or stupid, unlike his younger brother. And yet, from what i have observed over the 9 years of knowing him and his family, I feel it is DH's younger brother who is actually the apple of his mother's eye. For all his silly and irresponsible ways, I can see that DH's mother is besotted with his younger brother in a way she is not besotted with DH although she clearly does love and respect DH. And I do think DH was very scared that by standing up to his mother he would be no longer be the favourite 'obedient' son that he has always thought of himself as.

Smithfield, you do make a valid point about whether DH only said what he did to keep me happy. But I am 100% sure that he only said what he did to his mother because deep down inside he knew i was right about his mother, because she had also treated him the way she had been treating me, even though he was extremely reluctant to admit to any nasty behaviour on her part towards him. And whatever his other faults, i know DH to be the sort of person who would never say something to simply keep me happy. He has never once done this in all the time I have known him and i do not believe he would do it now. I am sure he knew though that our marriage was at stake if he did not step up to the mark and do the right thing ie put a stop to his mother bullying me, and perhaps this is what finally made him find the courage he needed to tell his mother that he could see the truth about who she was.

What you said here is true for me too :"He is a very kind and loving man and I am lucky in that respect, but that still doesnt mean I made the right choice." But I simply could not bring myself to leave him now because I would feel like I had simply 'used' him as a safe haven when i needed him and that once i had largely recovered and healed from my past, i cast him aside now that i no longer need him in the way I originally did.

But I suppose it's not just due to guilt that I want to stay with DH, i do still love him and i think he has the potential to be an amazing man if he was able to develop some self awareness and insight and allow so much more of his true self to show through than he has done until now.

My counsellor thinks DH may allow his true self to show through more as she thinks DH's inner child feels safe with me and takes strength from my own courage in my willingness to stand up to his mother (as if DH hadn't spoken to her, I would have myself and DH knows this, that I am not scared of her). She thinks deep down DH knows perhaps that I am also a safe haven for him and this makes sense to me as it explains a bit about why DH has stuck by me throughout the nightmare of the last few years.

I feel closer to DH now but not in a 'co-dependent' sort of way which I think i was before. Because i was so needy and had so many empty gaps inside me that had been left by my parents, i was for a long time totally dependent on DH and his love to help fill the voids in me. But these days I don't feel I need him to love and respect me like i used to. Because I love and respect myself and the person who I am inside; I even like myself and I no longer need DH or anyone else to love me or like me or respect me. That shift in me means I am no longer dependent on DH and gives me a strength and courage that I have never felt before. And I do hope that my counsellor is right, that DH will now be able to take strength from my new found strength and use it to face the truth about his own childhood and to face the truth about how his own parents did not give him what he needed as a small child.

Sakura, i truly hope the birth of your second child will mark the birth of the real you. ie any vestiges of the fog that descended after the birth of your DD will completely lift and you will be free to be and express yourself exactly as you are. My DS is now 3, and so whilst after his birth I did feel on such a 'high' for quite a few months, I did descend quite far back into the pit and have been clawing my way out ever since.

Just one more thing to add, going back to what Bop said about growing up feeling i was born defective and that there was something wrong with me. In my case it was not just that i felt i was defective in my character and personality but also in my body because i was prone to these horrible and unsightly flare ups of eczema. I just seemed to accept that this was my lot in life, i had terrible skin and i was a nasty horrible person. I feel so angry when i realise i was made to feel that way all my life and yet it was so not true. The truth is that there is nothing wrong with me, not mentally, emotionally nor phsyically. My skin has improved so much recently, without the use of any medication at all, and I can see that the state of my skin is simply a totally accurage reflection of the state of my mental health and self esteem. And the more i recover and heal mentally and emotionally, the more my skin recovers and heals. It makes me so angry that I have had to suffer for so much of my life, not only with feeling unloved and hated by my parents and that this was due to me and how i was, due to my character and personality but also i have had to suffer as a result of my eczema, which made me feel different to my sisters who don't have it, and different to most other people that i knew. I just accepted it, both my parents hatred of me and my skin problems as if it was all i could expect and it was all i deserved given that i was such a terrible person, unworthy of love or good health.

So many years of my life have been wasted, so many times i have been held back and not taken up opportunities because of my health problems and now i realise even this was all, solely due to my parents. They have so much to answer for and they have no idea about any of it.

I no longer feel the need for revenge or murderous of my parents like I used to, instead i use my energy to take care of myself and look after my inner child and make sure i always listen to her and take her seriously. ie i do what my parents never did and they simply do not matter any more, i don't need them, they have no hold or influence over me anymore and for me that is revenge as i am making sure that i have cast off every last shred of the legacy they tried so hard to leave with me. My parents will not live on in this world through me, I have made sure of that, and that my DC's are safe from their harmful and toxic ways.

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RedCharityBonney · 18/05/2009 11:52

smithfield, he's four now lol!

My problem was not just my mother but her partner. They're a right pair. Mum's deeply selfish and passive-aggressive.

What she really wants is to be left alone, and not bothered by things. Her partner is a dreadful bully. The payoffs for mum are that she finally has someone to be a proper martyr to, which she's been after all her life, and she lives with someone so utterly vile that no-one else can 'get to her' in her own home. It's like protection for her, like having a guard dog.

The partner is an alcoholic, which works out well for mum. She has someone she can feel sorry for and superior to, and who keeps people away from her and makes her feel like she must be a really good person since she's so good to the horrible person in her life.

It's grotesque actually.

They're both pitiable up to a point, in that they had really dreadful childhoods. But they take no responsibility for changing. They like to like they are and they are happy to be miserable together.

So, there's nothing I can do, no possibility of a relationship, and really, no reason for me to keep banging my head against a brick wall trying to find ways to help them - even cure them (yes, I have been that deluded).

As lots of you have said, the sadness is in knowing not that you've lost a parent, but that you never had one.

I'm hopeless and helpless and doubly abandoned. But this year I start making my own life properly and truthfully and stop hurting myself.

They aren't quite as irrelevant to me as I am to them yet, but I'm working on it - and that feels good.

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smithfield · 18/05/2009 11:32

RCB- Your post reminded me so much of how it was for me. I totally empathise. I think the difficulty can be that many people in RL just cant understand the feeling that it gives you when the one relationship in your life which should form the very foundation for all your relationships...just doesnt exist.
At least not on the basis that it should. An image of a loving nurturing mother? Not for me I've never had that not ever...Sounds like you are in the same boat.
How is your baby now? I really hope things have improved and you have your little one at home with you.

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smithfield · 18/05/2009 11:27

opoI think there is a difference between your DH saying what he did because he finally 'got it' as opposed to keeping you happy. Do you feel he finally 'got it'on any level?
For my part whenever DH has listened to me with regards to his own mothers' behaviour I am still left with this empty, deflated feeling,because deep down i feel as though he has feigned understanding in order to keep his realtionship and keep the peace, but there is no real insight there at all.
SIL said to me Y'day that she could not get her DH (bil) to buy a new TV. The reason being their current TV was a gift from MIL.
I think that is very telling.

Bop I could have written that post myself. All of it. The wedding especially. Wow Im grateful for that because it has brought greater clarity to my own feelings.
At the end of our wedding myself and DH had learnt a dance routine. It wasnt perfect but beautiful. All our friends screeched and clapped with delight when we did it.
Afterwards I went up to my mother and said 'well? did you enjoy that'. She just looked at ,me and said something along the lines of DH 'couldn't dance' and considering that had been quite brave to have done it as it '..obviously wasnt really 'his' thing'.
Yep there was the '..blind ally'.
Also where you wrote this;

'...another role they pushed me into - the bolshie, confrontational one, always arguing, always challenging. FGS, I just want to rest sometimes, but I realised on one of the last occasions I saw my father that he HAS to argue with me, find something to pick a fight about, and then say it's me, I'm awkward. And yet me and DH are very happy not arguing most of the time. Of course we have our moments, but neither of us seeks out that drama; my parents on the other hand do, but they still like to make out that I'm the one who can't live in peace with other people. And in fact they crippled me so much I couldn't live in peace with other people (or myself) for a very, very, very long time. '

Thankyou again for claryfying something for me. It was my mother I think who pushed me into this role but my father would often collude with her. It was exasperating to literalyhave the woman follow me around the house picking fights and then pointing at me and screaming that I was '..the aggressive one', '..the problem'. Grrr.
From your posts you are not what they painted you as at all. I can see that as clear as day Bop.

rose - Im a bit shocked actually that you didhave doubts that your adoptive parents were abusive. I guess its par for the course though, the normalisation thing again.
I agree with what others have said about mental illness and the role of the family.
I do think that when it comes to an illness
like Schizophrenia there may be a greater propensity to it in some individuals but it is well documented now that 'stressful' environments are an influencing factor. I also dont think its by accident that in most cases the illness appears in the teenage years.
Ive known several people with this illness and both cases had abusive , higly stressful upringings. Of course there are always exceptions.
I think the idea of you writing the story of your mother is a beautiful idea. I think it could be incredibly healing for you. A lovely way to honour your own mother for who she really was. probably an incredibly 'senitive' young woman brought up in a stifling and oppressive environment over which she had no choice or control.

---
Re the safe haven thing- Me too I think
And yes I think I was badly depressed when I met DH and certainly when we married.
He is a very kind and loving man and I am lucky in that respect, but that still doesnt mean I made the right choice.
Im not sure I feel the way I should for him and that 'is' a problem in itself.
Yet I could just feel like this because of my 'fucked up' upringing and I guess its for me to work out what feeling is the authentic one.
One thing that does play on my mind is that my mother always made it clear that she didnt think my DH was good enough. she was quite dismissive and rude to him and said some awful comments implying he was unattractive. I do think I project myself onto him but does some part of me on a subconcious level still want a seal of approval.
I know conciously of course that will never happen. Even if I had married Tom Cruise she would have found a way to undermine me.
Looking at me with her blank look '...He's a bit short though isnt he dear...oh well so are you!'.

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Sakura · 18/05/2009 01:54

oneplusone,
OMG, reading your posts about you and DH I know I am in exactly the same situation as you. I also wonder why on earth I married DH, but I understand that, despite his faults, he too has offered me a "safe haven" where I have been able to recover from my family. In fact when I first moved in with him I didn't have a job and I just slept and slept. Like Jenny in FOrest Gump when she stays at his home. I felt like I was having the first rest of my life. LIke I was just recovering from life being so hard.
THen I too had the big problems with functioning after having DD. It was great to read that you felt revitalised after having your DS. I am due a DS (I think) in a few weeks time.
I sank into a low pit this week but I isolated my feelings and realised they were about MIL using this vulnerable time of pregnancy and birth to attack me again. I really really hope DH can defend me from her this time.
AS you say, he is not strictly oblivious to her bullying, he is just in denial. I remember once shouting at him "SHe's your mother, you must know what she is like", meaning that it was just ridiculous that he had no idea what I was talking about when I gave him specific examples of bullying behaviour. But, yes, she must have treated him like that as a child. SHame is a big tool for control in Japan (rather than smacking) and I do believe DH carries around a certain amount of shame within himself, instilled my MIL. SHe used to snigger and laugh at me a lot- my choices, my decisions, my cooking, things i thought and believed. She must have done the same to him. He is in no way ready to see it. Maybe when we have a son he will see his own vulnerability in his son and understand that her treatment of him was wrong. Who knows- maybe he prefers to be in denial. He is the "favourite" son after all. Why on earth would he rock the boat and risk being treated like his elder brother is treated within the family!

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BopTheAlien · 17/05/2009 23:57

Thank you Smithfield - "It is such a difficult role being the scapegoat because your whole self belief system is based on being bad, worthless, a failure.." - you have really hit the nail on the head. And, like you say, you just can't challenge it as a child because it really is about survival. It's great that you had that inner nurturing voice. That's what we need more than anything i think. Our own internal counterforce against all the evil lies and propaganda they shoved down our throats and forced us to carry and believe.

Sometimes I think I sound so angry in what I write on here and it makes me sound like this hate filled bitter person, but I have to be angry at them a)because of what they did to me and b)to protect myself from them. I need the anger to remind me that they are NOT safe for me to be around. Thanks Smithfield too for what you said about me sounding like I'm safe now, and not replying to her. Very helpful feedback.

Anyway, that was another role they pushed me into - the bolshie, confrontational one, always arguing, always challenging. FGS, I just want to rest sometimes, but I realised on one of the last occasions I saw my father that he HAS to argue with me, find something to pick a fight about, and then say it's me, I'm awkward. And yet me and DH are very happy not arguing most of the time. Of course we have our moments, but neither of us seeks out that drama; my parents on the other hand do, but they still like to make out that I'm the one who can't live in peace with other people. And in fact they crippled me so much I couldn't live in peace with other people (or myself) for a very, very, very long time.

A little while back DH said that I'm the gentlest person he's ever known - even given how angry I can get (and he's seen the worst), that was perhaps the most wonderful thing he could have said to me. To have that affirmation that that gentle, loving side of me is the one that is real and authentic and seen by the person (adult) closest to me in the world is wonderful. And it would have been unimaginable not that long ago.

Sakura, thanks too for saying what i said made sense to you. I wish that like you I'd been aware of their agenda before my wedding; I was aware of a lot but hadn't yet clocked just how much they needed to keep me down and thwart my happiness and how desperate I still was for them to do the opposite, and make me their number one at least for that one day. So I nearly killed myself trying to organise the perfect wedding, unconsciously trying to make them love me, and of course they managed to make me feel the same way they've always made me feel. Really not important. Not loved. And not actually connected to them in any real sense. There was one bit where my mother was on the (very small) dancefloor, quite pissed already, and dancing away with this slightly manic look on her face that she often gets when out. Things had alreayd gone badly askew but I made one last attempt to turn it into something real; I was dancing just a couple of feet away from her and so I tried to catch her eye so we could dance TOGETHER -each doing our own thing but aware of each other, iyswim? And she just totally blanked me and carried on dancing away in her own little private world. It was my wedding day, I was right there in a big white dress, but she just didn't see me - to her, it was just another big party with her family and her friends, like so many others, and the significance of the day for me, for us, for our family meant nothing to her. Or maybe with retrospect it did and that was what she couldn't stand - it meant I was getting away from them. Finally. That was just one small detail, they're all small details really but it's the way they add up - it absolutely broke my heart that I'd put so much energy into wanting to be their princess that they truly loved for a day and the day WAS perfect in every other respect, even the weather obliged, and it was all a blind alley.

That was a real scales falling from my eyes moment for me, after my wedding - that's when I realised both how much I still had invested in wanting to win their love, and how committed they are to blocking my happiness. So in that respect it was very postitive, but I've wished so many times since that we'd just had a quiet do or gone abroad - that's with hindsight though... I needed to learn it I suppose, and without having put everything on the line like that I don't know when I would have "got it", so I'm glad it happened like that for that reason at least. It pissed me off though to realise that although I'd thought I wanted it to be perfect for me and DH, and I wanted to the day to be a celebration of OUR love and commitment, I still had this unconscious "hidden agenda" where it was still all about them, damn! And in fact that hidden agenda is still there, it keeps reappearing with every significant event, but I think I'm starting to recognise the signs a bit now. I hope that next time I get into that "got to make everything absolutely perfect" state I'll remember that what I'm actually trying to do is please them and win their love, and it's a hopeless task.

I had a realisation a couple of weeks ago that I still actually feel more unhappy than happy, and it was dreadful and liberating at the same time. Dreadful to have come so far, and worked so hard and achieved so much and still be unhappy, above all to have married my soul mate and to finally have achieved our dream of becoming parents and still feel so unhappy. [skihorse, if you're still reading - because of all the shit I had to shovel I didn't meet DH and start ttc till the age of 40, and it was a very long hard struggle for us to get to where most people get pretty naturally and easily. So I do know where you're coming from - there is a lot of support out there around infertility, if you're not already accessing it, and I'm more than happy to share info etc with you, and I wish you all the very best on this journey, I know how heartbreaking it is.] It made me feel really guilty towards DH and DS, like I'm not appreciating them enough. I ended up saying it to DH, and he was upset, naturally, but that was also very liberating - I felt like I'd confessed the awful, ugly truth that had been lurking in the shadows for a while, and now that it was out I could start dealing with it.

Maybe I should add that we had to go through four cycles of IVF, remortgage our home, max out our credit cards etc; I did get pregnant first time in fact but then miscarried; and all this was in my 40's so the prognosis was never brilliant and you're living with the slenderest of threads of hope all the time - but we got there. You don't feel like you're allowed to be unhappy with your lot after all that; it feels so fucked up to have given everything you've got to make something happen and then not to be able to enjoy it once it happens. Well, obviously I do enjoy some of it - masses of it, in fact, but coping with the ongoing damage from the past and the misery of my relationship with the rest of my family, and the reality of becoming a mother without my family in my life, and dealing with their attempts to restore the status quo, has been draining to say the least. And as I think most parents would agree, however they become parents, becoming a mother opens up a whole new pandora's box of things - I really thought I'd dealt with so much already that it was going to be relatively plain sailing once I'd actually managed to get pregnant and stay pregnant. For me, the big challenge was to get anywhere near a normal life in the first place, the dynmaics of my family having dictated I had to be the outsider, the freak for so long, and so conclusively.

And then of course it turned out there was yet another big bloody challenge as soon as we'd got here. DS is a gift from heaven and I really do treasure him and DH - I often still can't believe we've been so lucky, to have this wonderful, adorable little boy, to have the child we dreamed of actually here with us - it's hard to put it into words when you have come so close to missing the boat entirely. But as people on here know, being a mother takes up an awful lot of energy, and brings up an awful lot of issues, and I have felt so far in over my head, so often, and I suppose the biggest thing is that the core issues obviously didn't go away when I had my son. In some ways they ballooned even more, getting to a deeper level of the onion, so they're even darker and scarier. I have a little girl inside who needs so much love and protection and mothering, and I can't split myself in two and look after them both; I can't do the work on myself when I'm with DS. But I have to do the work for his sake as well as mine. Their voice is still so strong - I'm just not allowed to have anything easy, it all has to be a great big struggle. Oh, and DS has clearly inherited issues from me - he carries a really deep distress in him that just kills me, I was so sure I could protect my child from what I'd been through but - he grew in my womb, and I've never lived in safety, so how could he not absorb that unsafety himself? I am absolutely committed to working on my stuff till he is out of that distress too. In the meantime, he wakes several times a night, and cuddling alone won't comfort him.

Having said all that, it really was liberating to voice that thought out loud, and I actually feel happier since I did. And as far as the present reality of my life now goes, it's pretty good. I am happy being at home with DS, I don't hanker after anything in particular, I think I am doing a good job of being a mum, even with all the crap, and I am not nearly so isolated and marginalised as I was for most of my life till I met DH, and even thereafter - our lives were so dominated by ttc that I still felt very much like an outsider to the rest of the world, a spectator. And I have all this because I removed myself from my family.

Whew. Very long post, I know. Done me good to get it out! Hello and hugs to everyone, reading all your posts as usual, even if I don't respond - I'm responding in my head but just not always on here!!

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RedCharityBonney · 17/05/2009 22:19

My mother came to stay and 'help' when my ds2 was born 6 weeks prematurely. I say 'help' but she spent most of her time on the internet having an affair with someone whom she then left us a day early to go and meet in a hotel in Oxford.

She stayed four days. She treated every request for help as some kind of affront and basically wor a face like a slapped arse the whole time.

I had to go thirty miles each way to spend time with my baby at the scbu every day for a fortnight, and she abandoned us early because she had hot pants for a web stranger.

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roseability · 17/05/2009 22:03

Just back from a weekend away so lots of posts to catch up on.

Firstly having read again the letters that my birth mother wrote to my grandmother when she was in hospital, the letters that my grandmother wrote to social services and the official social work documents around the time of my adoption, I have no doubt that my grandmother was trying to undermine her daughter's ability to be a mother.

Maybe for some of the right reasons i.e. concern for my well being, but also for some very wrong reasons.

I thank you from the bottom of my heart for seeing my viewpoint. I know the truth now and feel liberated by it. My adoptive father is an abusive bully. I was abused. My grandmother is a narcissist, who wanted to take on the role of my mother for her own controlling, selfish reasons.

The FOG is lifting! I feel strong and positive about the forthcoming birth of my daughter.

OPO - I am so glad that you are enjoying clothes more. My adoptive parents often criticised the way I looked/dressed and my weight. I internalised the belief that I had to be thin in order to be worth something. Like you, I have found a new enjoyment in clothes. I don't have to look perfect
to enjoy feminine pleasures such as skirts and make up. I am bigger than I have ever been, yet free from my father's tyranny about weight, I can feel good about myself. If I ever dressed up before, it was to attract attention from men (when I was younger!). But in a really shallow way, to make myself feel worth something. Now I dress up for me (and DH!). Your clothes reflect your new found belief in yourself? I know there will always be that grief for what you missed in your childhood, but you have made such good progress.

Your comment about sometimes wishing it was just you and your DC struck a chord. I too find great comfort and joy in DS's innocence and love. Whilst his demands on me as a three year old can be trying, he doesn't come with all the baggage! It has helped my bond with him actually.

BOP - Your comments about your mother needing you to be unhappy also struck a chord. My grandmother thrives on unhappiness and drama. She doesn't understand happiness. It was mentioned a while back about wanting revenge on abusive parents. The best revenge is to be happy and to have good relationships with our children I feel.

Smithfield - Your mother was wrong to make you feel guilty when you had your first child. Those words sent shivers down my spine because it could have been my grandmother you were writing about. When DS was born, it was all about her unhappiness. I didn't phone her enough. She was devastated because I didn't want her to stay longer than a couple of nights. She didn't get to hold the baby soon enough or often enough.

Finally to link back to OPO when you mentioned about feeling sorry for your father and the blame he got for his brother's death. I have great difficulty dealing with the FOG because of this. I know my adoptive parents have had terrible things happen to them and therefore I feel I should be more understanding. My grandmother/adoptive mother lost a baby boy at three days old. He was born the same day of the year that my DS was (what are the chances of that?!). She never had another son. I had the DS that she never could have and I believe that is why she couldn't be happy for me when he was born. I have mentioned before how she had a go at me the first time I phoned her when DS was born and didn't even say congratulations.

Now the cold, selfish part of me still cannot forgive the way she treated me when I had DS (as outlined above it was all about her and not what I was going through). Yet part of me feels the guilt still. I should have been more understanding about how the birth of DS will have triggered her grief. I do believe this is a large part of why she is the way she is. Why she took over the role of my mother

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oneplusone · 17/05/2009 15:46

AN, I know you are right again and I suppose I have known all along that what you are saying is true. Perhaps because I was never really seen for who I was by my parents, nor appreciated by them, it is yet another unfulfilled need from childhood that I am looking to DH to fulfill. But of course you are right AN, it is not really part of his job description as DH to fulfil in me needs that my parents have left unfulfilled. So I suppose I am putting unrealistic expectations on him. But if not DH, who then will recognise my qualities and appreciate me for who I am inside? I suppose the answer once again is nobody. If my parents didn't do this then it is very unlikely that I will find somebody now who will fill the gap they have left. I do have friends who seem to appreciate me, but it's not enough, I need more! I am beginning to realise this is yet another loss I have to accept, accept that my need in this regard will probably always remain unfulfilled to a degree, and no doubt one day I will be hit with a wave of grief over what I have missed out on forever. Like Alice Miller said, this process can seem like a never ending mourning/grieving process and once again she is totally right. Just when I think I have cracked it, yet another layer reveals itself with yet more issues to process and losses to face.

Smithfield, I am sorry you feel the way I do. It is not a nice feeling and makes me feel very isolated. If I met your psychologise, I would have to say the same thing to her as you did ie I have nobody, not a single person in RL with whom I can talk freely and openly and bare my soul without fear of being hurt by them. Once again, the people we should have been able to talk to like this were our parents, but of course i was certainly not about to confide in the very people who were abusing me as a child. Like you it is just so normal for me to bottle up all my feelings and not let them out, to not reveal them to anyone.

I am changing a bit now, I am finding it easier to open up and confide in people and so I do now have one or two people i talk to quite openly.

My DH, like yours would like me to be more wifely too. With DH I don't show any vulnerability, I keep my protective shell on and I know to him I come across as hard and tough when he would rather i was soft and feminine. But I think the reason i don't show any vulnerability with him is because I don't trust him to treat my feelings with the care and respect they deserve. He has shown he can be, at times, quite uncaring about my feelings, they do not seem important to him and so i don't reveal them to him. The whole saga with his mother has proved this. It is only now, after 9 years, that he has taken my feelings about her seriously, that he has finally heard how much she has hurt me over the years. I have told him how she has been to me a number of times over the years and each time he has ignored or trampled over or dismissed my feelings and so now i do not trust him anymore. And of course without trust you cannot have a meaningful relationship. I trust him in other areas eg he would never have an affair or be untrustworthy with money, so it's not there is no trust at all. But in the important matter of being able to talk and confide in him about my deepest thoughts and feelings, no I do not trust him. His phone call to his mother has gone a little way to restoring my trust in him but there is still a long way to go on his part before I can fully trust him again.

There are also a number of incidents from the past where I feel it must be clear to him now, that he, like his mother, completely misjudged me and hurt me hugely and I feel I need to talk about these incidents with him. I want him to acknowledge that he did misjudge me and that whilst it was not entirely his fault that he did misjudge me, there were a lot of factors which caused his error, he now needs to acknowledge his error and consciously acknowledge that i am not the person he thought I was. Some of the things I mean are things like the fact that due to my severe depression after having DD I was pretty hopeless at housework and looking after him and even myself. And i can see now that even once the really severe PND lifted, i was still left with a low level sort of depression which interfered with my ability to cope with everyday domestic life. I remember at times feeling like my brain just wouldn't work, like it had been frozen and no matter what I did it just would not function properly. I would go shopping and forget what I needed to buy, for eg. I must have appeared totally incompetent and useless to him and I used to get so frustrated and annoyed with myself as i knew what i must have looked like to DH and yet I knew inside that i was actually a very capable, bright and intelligent woman and would be good at anything I put my mind to. The problem was my mind and brain were in a fog and unable to function properly.

I feel that the fog only lifted completely after I had DS. I remember after I had him I felt so alive, so full of energy and vitality in a way I hadn't felt like for years. In fact looking back now i think i was depressed even when DH and I got married, if not before. Sometimes i wonder why on earth I married him . I wonder now if somehow my inner child recognised that being with DH would provide me with a safe haven away from my family in which i could heal and recover from all the hurt and damage they had caused me. And to a large extent this has been true, it is partly due to the security and stability that DH has provided me with that I have been able to do the hard work necessary to recover and heal from my past. But DH of course did not come without his own issues and of course his own family. And so whilst being with him was good on the one hand, on the other, i became a target once again for his mother who has always reminded me of my father and who DH himself has now labeled as a bully. And DH has also been bullying me to a degree; I am sure he was hurt and bullied by his mother as a little boy and so he had a repressed need to take out his repressed feelings on somebody and I of course was the perfect target for both him and his mother.

It is well known and documented that children who were bullied within their own families often go on to find themselves with bullying partners and that is exactly what I have done. I was fortunate in that DH is nowhere near as dominating or bullying as other partners I have heard and read about, but the underlying principle is the same.

The whole cycle of abuse has only come to a stop because I have taken steps to recover my self respect and self esteem and am now willing and able to stand up for myself against anyone who tries to bully me or treat me badly. I have stood up to my parents, MIL (via DH), DH and my sisters.

The only problem now is that DH himself has no self awareness or self insight. I am sure he has deeply buried any feelings of hurt and pain caused by his mother's bullying and nastiness when he was a child. But her treatment of him is what is driving him now even though he doesn't realise it. And i cannot open his eyes for him, he has to want to do it himself, but his blindness puts me in a very difficult position.

I know he thinks now he has spoken to his mother as i wanted I am now totally happy and have nothing left to discuss with him. But i have loads and loads that i need to talk to him about and resolve so that we can move forward in our relationship, but he is so defensive and not at all amenable to discussing where he may have made mistakes in our relationship i am reluctant to try and talk to him. And yet if i don't it will be a barrier between us which i don't want either. Will have to ponder it for a while and work out the best way to approach this.

Sorry for this huge ramble; I guess I have just been thinking aloud and writing it all down. No need for anyone to respond, writing it all out has helped clarify my thoughts.

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smithfield · 17/05/2009 12:37

network not nestwork

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smithfield · 17/05/2009 12:35

oneplusone- I totally empathise- as this is exactly how I have been feeling lately. It is to feel like this.
I recognise to some extent it is how I have felt internally all my life.
I had a meeting with a psychologist on Friday and during the meeting she asked what support nestwork I had. Questions about family, friends. She looked quite shocked and said '...so who do you talk to about stuff, important stuff...you know how you are really feeling inside'. I just shrugged.
At the same time it dawned on me that it wasnt normal to be that isolated or lonely. Yet this is how I have always felt...
Some of it for me is that its normalised and some is issues with trust. TBH I think it is the resverse in our relationship though of yours. I am the one with the inpenetrable shell. If there is a part of me that I hide it is my vulnerability.
I definately think DH would also like me to be more 'wifely'.

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ActingNormal · 17/05/2009 11:53

I think this is likely to be true for most lots of men - about wanting their women to do the things their mother did for them. My DH seems to feel loved if I iron his work shirts and do some housework and cook him a meal (even when it is crap!). His mum did these things for him (although better than me) and he felt loved by her so he must have learnt (or he interprets) that these things are an expression of love.

And I don't think my DH cares too much how intelligent I am either because, sorry to be so sexist, but I think men have basic and simple wants/needs - they want a woman who shows them love, is an enjoyable companion and gives them sex and does a bit of housework and this is enough for them!

They can still notice and appreciate other qualities that you have (if they are nice people who see people's good points) but I don't think it is essential to them that we have them.

I suppose if you look into it more, if we didn't have other interests we would become bored and discontented and then be moody for them to be with and boring so indirectly they probably would think less of us if we were "dumb as a doorknob"

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oneplusone · 17/05/2009 11:04

Sometimes I really do feel I would be happiest if it was just me and the DC's. No DH, no sisters, obviously no parents or PIL. My DCs are the only peoole around me who are authentic, there is no agenda, no lies, no manipulation, no saying hurtful or nasty things to me. Of course, being 3 and 5 they can be quite trying at times, but apart from that, their company seems preferable to any adult in my life.

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oneplusone · 16/05/2009 21:03

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ActingNormal · 16/05/2009 11:47

I felt triggered this morning when DD woke DS up at 6am by sitting on his legs and wouldn't get off him when he complained. It reminds me of stuff and makes me feel so intense that I find it hard to feel anything positive for DD for a while after something like that. At least I recognised I was being triggered immediately and have got over it fairly quickly.

I am different to my parents because I will notice the smallest thing like that and I will do something about it. I explain to the children how they should treat people and what is not ok. My parents didn't 'bother' with any of this. Writing this helps me feel some reassurance that my children won't go through awful things. Therapist said I am even more likely to notice bad things happening or signs in the children's behaviour of bad things happening because I am "raw" about it from my own experiences.

I'm scared I won't notice bad things happening to the children but logically I will. I'm still working on feeling this though as well as knowing it logically. To me, the 'normal' thing seems to be failing to notice because that is what my parents did and they acted/act like this was completely normal. I have to get it into my head that they were wrong.

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ActingNormal · 16/05/2009 11:34

Smithfield, I don't think I like your boss! What a bastard, getting you to spend time with someone who he thinks is 'better' than you - what for? to 'rub your face in it'? He thinks you should be more like her - well bollocks to that, you are fine exactly the way you are. You don't have to achieve a mega status in your career to be any good. If you did that you are more likely to neglect your children anyway as your mind would be all taken up by work. You don't have to work towards his standards. Think about what you think a good person is and then work towards that, or realise you are that already.

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smithfield · 16/05/2009 11:12

Yesterday was a bit of a first for me. I had been beating myself up over a very unproductive week at work.
I think it was brought on by the fact I am due to spend some time with a work colleague.
She has 4 children the youngest is the same age as dd. She works full-time.
She is doing really well at work currently, attending some management courses.
That is why my boss wants me to spend time with her.
After giving myself a hard time over things a voice suddenly popped into my head and said that I was being too hard on myself. I know it doesnt sound like much but this was huge for me. Instead of a critical voice I heard a nurturing one. It felt good and I could feel myself relax physically afterwards.
So she (my colleague) 'is' doing well...so what! Maybe work is just not my priority. A means to an end, yes. Right now my children are my priority and that's ok.
Two fingers up to my mother

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