Asked DH for a Separation, baby due in 2 months, not sure I can cope.

[BadhusbandsWife]

This all started with this thread here by BADHUSBAND

In summary DH has been depressed for about a year and a half, came on MN to ask how he could make up for his bad treatment of me during this time and got some valuable suggestions. He showed me the thread, made lots more promises, and then promptly forgot all of them and did nothing. I added an update at the end of the thread.

So last night we talked and I calmly explained that we were trapped in this cycle of "he does something hurtful"-"I forgive him"-"he does it again" over and over ad infinitum. The problem is that we can't move forwards without me forgiving him and my forgiving him enables him to keep doing whatever he feels like. It's a Catch 22.

Now I am depressed. For the past year I have been constantly giving of myself to support dh, and he cannot be there for me. He told me last night that the reason he avoids me and spends no time with me is because I am not pleasant to be around at the moment. Which is true, I am no fun, I am prickly and short-tempered, and I make him feel bad by crying.

In an ideal world he would now be returning the favour and looking after me. But this is not an ideal world and he finds it too difficult.

I knew he was avoiding me, but to hear him tell me it's a conscious decision was hard.

Extra info - 2 dc already, baby due in 2 months, dh works, I am housebound with SPD, I have history of depression, he had never been depressed before this is now on ADs and seeing a counsellor once a fortnight and has recently been diagnosed as Passive Aggressive as well.

I'm off to the GP this afternoon to try and get counselling for me.

My plan is for DH to move out for a few months to work out what he wants and make the behavioural changes he needs to, while going to relate every week or two to keep communication open.

I so wanted this all to be better before the baby comes, but I don't think that's going to happen, he has been promising change for 9 months now and things are still the same.

Please, any advice, support, shared experience etc. welcome. Not sure I could cope with being berated, but alternative suggestions are welcome if you can come up with something less drastic than separation that we haven't tried.

TIA

I'm sure I'll manage to say it once a day if we happen to see each other on here

Sounds like he has had big issues with the mother, and is taking it out on you. Domineering mothers can make veyr angry little boys - and grown up men - who are afraid to stand up to them, hence the only option being passive aggression - its a learnt behaviour.

This is probably not even about you - it's about the primary woman in his life, but it needs to be sorted out and therapy will go towards doing that, however can take several years or more.

He can change if he wants to - but it will be v difficult. Did he instigate his therapy or did you arrange all that for him? If he feels it was for you, he will definitely feel furious with you about anything it uncovers or any pain in him it engenders. It'll all be your fault iyswim.

BHW: you don;'t need counselling so much as you need him out for a while. End of. His depression, etc, may not be entirely his fault, but it doesn't give him the right to drag you and the rest of the family down. I know how hard it is to walk away from a self-obsessed, manipulative depressive, but what you have to remember all the time is that YOU MATTER TOO. You don;t exist purely to look after him and manage his moods. You are a human being with a right to feel comfortable in your own home, not permanently consumed with worrying about what mood he is in and how you can make him feel better.
Have you got any friends who can help you out for a while with the practicalities? If not, are you able to afford to pay someone to help out a bit on a temporary basis?
Becausae what you need most of all is a break from this man and his problems. Please remember that no matter what he says, you are entitled to take a break from looking after him.

Flightattendant, that's interesting. One of his major problems is that his motivation for doing anything is "for me", according to him. He wants to get better "for me". He wants to be the man I want "for me".

It doesn't matter how many times his counsellor and I tell him that he needs to do it for himself, he still argues that doing things "for me" is the best motivation.

Unfortunately "for me" often means for a mythical me up there on the pedestal, not for the RL me in front of him. And it gives him more licence to be angry with me, because I should be grateful that he is doing everything "for me". He doesn't have to take responsibility for his actions because he was doing it "for me". It's all really screwed up.

He did arrange counselling but only under pressure (to avoid going on ADs because he didn't want to, and to make up for being nasty) and only "for me".

His counsellor is very aware of this and has tried to break it, but of course this often gives him licence to come home and be nasty to me - because his counsellor says I'm not the be-all and end-all of everything. He doesn't click that the "me" she is talking about is his own construct, and not the woman crying in front of him.

When I explain all this, he does agree, but still sees doing things "for me" as a pure and worthwhile motivation.

Sadly that pure and worthwhile motivation is ruining our marriage and making me into an object of scorn and hatred.

Can I just be a pregnant lady wrapped in cotton wool for a few minutes, please? That'd be really nice

I agree, sgb, but I think counselling might help her see that none of this is her fault or responsibility.

I think taking the process slowly and making sure it gets done properly is a good thing. I think making sure you have support (professional or otherwise - good idea getting your mum on board) will help, too.

solidgold, thanks for the straight talking. Can't even afford for him to move out but I'm ignoring that fact for the moment, we will make do. But certainly can't afford any more help. I'll just do the bare minimum for the next few months. We'll manage somehow.

EXACTLY. You have it in one and I'm so glad you can see what he;s doing.

In his head you have taken the place of his mother - giving him carte blanche to play out all his conflicting emotions regarding her, within the relationship betwene you and he.

It's awful and if he can't see what he's doing, you really are in trouble - I think you will have seriously to consider walking away for a long time.

Self awareness is the only thing that will pull him out of this and without that he's (for the time being) a bit of a lost cause

Yes a bit of pampering would be good for you right now. I wish I could magic him into the kind of partner you need. I don't think it's possible to get what you need from him though, not now and not for a while by the sound of it.

He's really classically relating to you as his parent. wanting to please you but at the same time really really cross about it.

You need to just switch off from it completely and not stand for any more. I think when you have some time alone finally you will feel a lot of anger towards him for having done this to you - and towards yourself possibly for having allowed it.

Be prepared for that. But it's way, wayyy better than staying any longer and allowing any more of that anger to build up iyswim/

Yes, do it sensibly and don't rush - but maintain the boundaries at all times- he is in charge of what he does, but you are in charge of what you do, and you are the one taking measures to protect yourself and the children from this weirdness.

Don't take a single ounce more nonsense from him.

BHW, it sounds like you have a really good understanding of his depression. The doing it 'for me' stuff.

My Dad was depressed and my mum has spent her life being his crutch. He's a lot better now, right meds I guess, but she literally hasn't had 20 minutes to wallow, ever, because that's my Dad's role. she's a strong person and she's coped.

I really agree with what solid says. Get him to leave to give you a break. It will be like a dark cloud lifting off the house.

If he does get his medication right, and sort out his thoughts, he could recover well enough to be a husband, but at the moment, you have 3 children to consider.

Salmon, thanks, I don't want to be a crutch, I want to be an equal partner. I'd quite like to wallow sometimes too TBH.

Flight, I might have to print that out and stick it on the fridge.

My parents are coming up this weekend. I might just use them to take the dcs out and spoil them rotten. I'm a little bit worried about what my dad's going to say. Last time he got in the middle of a disagreement, and took dh's side telling me to calm down and that we all make mistakes so really undermining all the work to get dh to take responsibility for his actions. He followed it up by saying I get too worked up about it all and the way to get dh to do things is to use my "womanly wiles"

BHW: has your dad raised you to think that women should manage men and indulge them, by any chance? Because that could explain why you have been so very forgiving and patient with your DH when quite a lot of women would have told him to fuck off and not come back till he has grown up.
Because your DH doesn;t have a right to drain all your energy and take up all your time with his problems, his moods, his neediness indefinitely. You have done a hell of a lot for him already, and he is doing bugger all to help himself - unfortunately he is seeing his counseling as even more justification for putting himself and his needs first. You are so right about him relating to you not as a person. Which is another reason why you really need to get away from him for a while, just to get some breathing space and time to think about yourself and your DC.
When you get this break, remember, no contact with him (for at least a week, say) because otherwise if he is weeping down the phone, following you around or sending long I'm going to kill myself emails it will be no break at all.
TBH it might actually do him some good as well if he has to spend some time without being able to make you look after him.

Oh god, the 'for you' business sounds mad and tiresome. He needs to do things right for him - but of course if he's depressed and tangled up, he won't think he deserves to do anything for him ... gah ...

Welcome to my life NQC it's crap!

solid, brought up in a family like that? Yes? Major ructions in my teenage years when I found the joys of equality and feminism? Oh yes! I do recall my father telling me I would never get anywhere in life with the chip I had on my shoulder (IIRC he had been telling me why women shouldn't earn as much as men).

In general I'm not someone to lie back and take it, but I guess I thought that by putting up with the crap I would get my nice, caring dh back. The one who didn't need to say he loved me every five minutes because it was blatantly obvious that he did. Now all I get are words.

Just one more quick question (and this one may come across as really stupid) but what should I say to my GP this afternoon?

If I start talking then there's no way I'll get the info I want to across in 10 minutes.

What are the key points I should be making? My head is so full of crap that I can't think straight, and I'll be much less likely to go in and say "I'm fine really, just a bit tired" if I have things straight beforehand.

TIA

bump

Hi BHW just got in, not ahd time to read through since I went offline, but basically I think you need to ask for some counselling and also if he can put you in touch with any women's services - ie orgs that help single mums dealing with awkward relationships etc. Possibly even womensaid - anything he can give you that might add support, really.

Tell him the focus has been entirely on your husband until now and you're not coping too well, are about to separate, need help - he will prob offer you ad's yourself, but you don't have to accept. I don't know if you'll need them anyway once you have a bit of space.

Good luck and let us know how you get on xx

Don't know if I'm the right person to help, but you bumped so...

o Your husband's depression and behaviour has pushed you past breaking point and you need support while he's out of the house and sorting himself out.
o You don't know whether you're definitely depressed or just very down because you've been living with a thundercloud, but you know you're prone to PND - would he think counselling would help
o Your SPD is adding to the burden - does he know of any physical assistance that can be offered?

Stuff like that? Is he your DH's GP as well?

PAAA has good advice, particularly about asking if there is any physical assistance you can have (because without physical assistance it will be tempting to let your DH stay on - though I would not be at all surprised if he's actually bugger all use at practical help even though he's there.)
If the GP treats both of you you might need to keep repeating that this appointment is about you not your husband, and that you need assistance.
Best of luck.

Thanks Flight and Per,

So, support, counselling, separation, PND, SPD, dh's depression.

Same surgery, but different GP. I'm quite sure I don't want ADs as long as I'm not a danger to myself or others.

DH has just sent an email suggesting I go away with the children during half term, then we have a week away together to talk about separating or staying together.

Does that sound like a good idea?

DH is a help around the house it's the one thing he has been able to support me with.
Thanks solid.

Appointment at 4.

Not sure if it's a good idea or not. Maybe DH should go away for the week, and you can see how well you cope without him? This has to be about you now...

I don;t think the week away with him is a good idea. I think such a thing should take place only after he has MOVED OUT for a while and done some work on sorting himself out. Because (and I know I keep repeating this but I get the impression he is repeating the opposite) what you need is a break from him, becuase while he is there, it will be impossible for you not to be focussing on him, his moods, his therapy, what his counsellor said and how much better/worse he feels than he did five minutes ago.

I'm wondering if maybe he should go away with the children and I have a friend to stay for the week.

I definitely don't want my world to revolve around his illness anymore, I need something of me back. Talking to a friend the other day she said I seem so quiet, and that terrifies her (very un-me).

I might see if anyone's free to visit.

That's a much better idea - as long as his depressive issues don't stop him being able to look after the DC properly. (Not that I think that will be a problem: if he can hold down a job OK then it's less that he has no control over himself, more that he;s decided it's your job to take shit from him).

No, not a good idea sorry

In his present state he's not any help to you, and you have decided he needs to move out for a while - stick to it, he is probably quite scared about coping on his own - but I'll bet you he copes fine.

There's no way you are ready to make a decision like whether to stay together or not at this point. You would have done so otherwise - what does he think will have changed within 2 weeks from now??

Stick to your plan.
He has to move out and you get to see what it's like coping on your own with the children. It doesn't matter how helpful he is around the house, he's abusive emotionally and that's the issue here - I briefly considered keeping my ex because of reasons such as that - not that he was any use, but you know the kind of thing - then realised that sort of thing wasn't beyond my capabilities, really...you need a house that isn't under a cloud. I can't tell you how important that is, you'll realise it once he isn't there. Trust me!

You and he can have time together after a few months. He isn't going to change that quickly iyswim. It can take a person years in therapy before they really alter their behaviours.

Looking back though, can you see his behaviour gradually changing before he reached this point? Or was it a sudden change?

Cross posts - my lasat post was in response to the one about you going away for a week then having time to make a decision with him afterwards. Sorry!

Yes second idea much better as SGB says.

It might help you find out what happened to the old BHW, where she is hiding.

As long as you feel he is not a threat to the kids in any way (not bringing them back, perhaps, or threatening to harm himself while they are with him)

He was always irresponsible and we always had a bit of an adult-child thing but it wasn't like this. We've been together more than 10 years, we met quite young and were close friends first. I already had dc1 and he made me feel young again.

I enabled all his behaviour because I felt (and my family encouraged this feeling) that I owed him for taking on a single mum and that dc1 was ultimately not his responsibility. In every other way he was dc1's dad - loved him and treated him as his own - but I did feel that anything he did he was doing as a favour, not because it needed doing IYSWIM.

When we had dc2 that changed. It was no longer a case of dh being kind changing a nappy, it was now equally his responsibility. I stopped praising him basically. He lost his motivation for doing things. I couldn't understand why he wasn't taking responsibility (hindsight being 20:20) without prompting - basically I wanted him to grow up.

So it is all my fault, because all this happened when my expectations changed and his didn't. This was all about 4 years ago. Then last year after discussing moving closer to family and friends where we would have more support, he suddenly started blaming everything that was wrong in our lives on himself. Yes, there were some sacrifices I had made for his career, but I was aware of that when I made them and didn't blame him at all. Unfortunately he quickly went from blaming himself to projecting it onto me, and so from Sept 07 until July 08 I was told daily that it was my fault he was so sad and that I had all these issues (issues that with good-old hindsight are frustration at his Passive Aggression). He has always been PA, but I never knew it. He would always lie to avoid taking responsibility, but it was so stupid and laughable that it was hard to take seriously - never about anything big (his mother does exactly the same). It would drive me crazy that he would say one thing and do another, but he just seemed scatty, not vindictive or malicious (unlike now ).

Oh God, have just written another essay, sorry.

Never ask me any questions!