Is this rape/sexual abuse?

[QuickNameChange1]

Please picture the scene and give your opinion...

a woman is having sex with her husband. After a while, she asks him to stop as she just cannot get in the mood. Instead of doing as she asks, he carries on alhough "speeds things up" so that he still gets what he wants out of it.

5 minutes or so after she asked him to stop, he does.

Is this still classed as rape/abuse?

Sorry for the name change, wanted to ask this anon.

It's such a horrible, difficult area; I'm glad it is something I don't come across professionally because I really don't know who is entitled to judge these sort of situations.

I think Swalesie does have a point actually and saying "you presumably aren't pushing him off at this point" is irrelevant surely - are you implying that it is only 'rape' if you are pushing him off?

The problem with saying "oh yes X is definitely rape" is that it makes a lot of women think OMG I AM A RAPE VICTIM. The fact is that generally when engaged in sexual congress both parties are usually rather in the moment and not worrying about whether consent might be withdrawn at any moment. The shouting of "NO NO" or "STOP" or "THAT REALLY HURTS" might actually be an exhortation to carry on - only the two people involved really know the sexual dynamic between them and the boundaries they employ. And a lot of the time it's hard to interpret that: I'm sure we've all been in sexual situations where we are not quite sure whether our partners want it harder or faster or whether they are enjoying having their head banged against a wall or your fingernails digging into their buttocks. It's so massively complicated. In the OP it is not the fact that she uttered the word 'no' that is the problem IMO it is how the dynamics of the situation has made her feel.

I agree with harpomarx:

"I think this point may have been made before, but it seems to me the important thing is not to label what has gone on but that the OP works out how it made her feel."

Agree totally.

whether WE feel it is rape or not is irrelevant. it is whether the woman in question has felt violated by what has gone on.
if she does then sadly she needs to realise that it is highly unlikely that any charges could ever be filed, but that there is help and support out there for her if she feels she would like it.

Swalesie- I would say the difference between your scenario and this is that you were happy for it to continue. you may have said can we stop but you didn't make that request clearly understood to your partner becase actually you obviously weren't to bothered by him contiuning to "rut away"
This lady did make her feeling's clear and indeed tried to push him off of her. he physically overpowered her in order to continue.

your partner could have been forgiven for not understanding your no as meaning no, rather than...your just not doing it right try something else. the male in OP's scenario wuld have been left with no confusion.

I'm really sorry but a lot of you have the wrong idea about what the law actually is. I would happily like it to be different, but it is not.

It also isn't rape if the act is oral or anal, and rape can only be committed be a man against a woman, and if at the time of penetration the woman consents then because the only part that matters in the penetration of the penis into the vagina without consent (where consent can reasonably be asumed to have been given) and nothing to do with when ejaculation occurs or how long the rape lasts. The woman effectively, leagally can't change her mind half way through.

The massive scope of all of these things that aren't covered by rape that I just emntioned are covered under sexual assault.

I don't like that that is the way the law is defined, and scotland for example is currently looking to revise the law but the OP asked for a legal answer and that's what it is.

OP also agree with everybody else that says you need to sort out how you feel about it, before you decide how to proceed, it must be very difficult for you and I'm sorry the law comes up short.

Sorry but your law is out of date. This is from the Rape Crisis site:

"What is the current definition of rape in law?

The Sexual Offences Act 2003 (the Act) came into force on the 1 May 2004. It repealed almost all of the existing statute law in relation to sexual offences. The purpose of the Act is to strengthen and modernise the law on sexual offences, whilst improving preventative measures and the protection of individuals from sexual offenders.

The main provisions of the Act include the following:

Rape is widened to include oral penetration"

The situation in the OP is rape IMO.

Oh dear, very apologetic, you're totally right, I am out of date with regards to oral (and anal too)

but the original assertion that consent is based on consent takes place immediately before or at the beginning of the act still stands (from section 75 of the same 2003 act). I can only assume because it is too difficult to prove otherwise.

Laweaselmys

I daresay you are right regarding the legal definition of rape, but I think morally, emotionally, physically, it is still rape if the victim clearly shows that she/he wants the sexual act to stop and the perpetrator refuses to stop. It doesn't make it any less rape because the law is an ass IMO!

I return the agree, morningpaper - you have also said more eloquently what I was trying to say, especially the fact that this type of labelling makes women think OMG I AM A RAPE VICTIM, thus kind of shutting down any more complex thinking about how this incident fits into the general pattern of behaviour within this particular relationship. There were certainly things that were a bit iffy within my last long term relationship: however, given the nature of our sex life I would have at no point regarded them as 'rape' or 'sexual abuse'. That will not be true for others who have different boundaries.

dittany, I don't think what we think is irrelevant at all. I think that discussing legal definitions of rape is less important in this case than helping the OP to realize how she feels about this incident, that's all. I appreciated that she has asked whether we think this is rape or not but it is still valid to try to repose her question.

she has asked for a black and white response to her dilemma and I think what is apparent is that the issue is more complex than that.

what I mean to say is that, if we all reached a consensus that this wasn't rape, would the OP think 'oh, it wasn't such a big deal then'? Of course she wouldn't, she is clearly upset by the incident because within her relationship this behaviour is unacceptable.

"rape is sex you are forced to have against your will"

well it's more complicated than that IMO.

you can have sex against your will without being forced at all.

And you can also have sex that you don't particularly want to have without it being "rape" IMO. I have also been in a marriage where I often had sex that I didn't want to have, but I wouldn't call it rape, just the sad and depressing end to a sad and depressing depressing relationship between sad and depressed people.

I think the trouble is applying this label of 'rape' and 'not rape' is not always helpful.

I have had sex with a man against HIS will - so I suppose I am a rapist. Perhaps my discomfort is purely because I don't want to be one? I'm not always sure who can make the decision of how to label the act and the individuals involved.

Human sexual relations are massively complicated and labelling them 'rape' or 'not rape' is not always helpful. I am also very uncomfortable about the idea that women are passive recipients of agressive men and are the ones who have to 'consent' to being 'entered' which is often the impression given by such discussions. Is it so simple? I don't know.

I don't think that this discussion diminishes the horrifying effects of acts of rape on a person, but I think that there are many situations where answering 'yes' or 'no' to the question 'is this rape?' is something that only the people involved can answer.

Well Dittany if on a weekly basis we played playful games with our husbands which involved us all having a punch up and a bit of slapping, and this was quite normal, then domestic violence would also be a very difficult area. But we don't.

dittany, at no point have I suggested that what happened was the sexual equivalent of 'a few whacks that won't hurt'. I said it was unpleasant and aggressive behaviour.

re your point about domestic violence. I was in a abusive relationship. Not the extremely violent kind but one that clearly came under the umbrella of 'abusive' as defined by various organisations. In a way, it did help me to have it 'labelled' abusive, so I concede you have a point. However, I also knew long before contacting any organisations that ex's behaviour was totally unacceptable, making me miserable as hell and putting my future health and happiness at serious risk.

Ok I don't know anyone who plays such games Dittany

Except during sex

Which is a massively complicated area as I have stated before

And many people say 'no please stop' during sex and don't mean it. And obviously you can also NOT say 'no' and not want it to continue. I'm sure in most cases the people involved are fairly sure of other person's intent. But I'm sure there are also cases where they are not sure.

Did anyone hear the debate on radio 2 yesterday about the girl who nearly had her compensation for being raped reduced because she was drunk? The two women debating were hilarious and made a mockery of what is a serious issue. I haven't laughed so much in a long time.
And with regard to the OP - I would not class that as rape personally.