Should I be cross if DH went to lap dancing club?

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...and spent £60 on private dances (we aren't poor and he doesn't spend money on much that is frivolous).

Other people seem to think I should be cross but I can't see it. Am I being a mug? Is it a sign of disrespect?

He got a bit of female attention outside the marriage. He was consenting. They were consenting. I knew he was going there. There doesn't seem like there is a risk of him forming a relationship with the women but if a woman behaved that way with him in a regular nightclub that seems more of a threat to me.

He came home horny as hell and seemed like he had a good break from the stress of his job.

If PT rejoins thread I would like to know why lap dancers decide not to continue 'dancing'when they are obviously pregnant - surely this should be seen as discrimination and a direct contradiction of maternity law?

Because if lapdancing is all about a bit of fun and nothing whatsoever to do with sex then why do women stop when they are pregnant?

Bb, but my point is that just because men have been shown to have had tendencies to letch over the naked form for centuries it does not prove that it is natural.

"I think there was a discussion about how it's not a natural thing for men but a learned thing and so someone aske why have men used porn for so long then? Or something like that..."

Yeah that's how I was following it too, fwiw.

Linden. I wonder if men find the pregnant body that attractive. My guess would be that men pay less money to pregnant lap-dancers and so it's not really a very well paid job to keep doing when you're pregnant, so people stop...?

I wonder if anyone has ever been forced to leave their lap-dancing club because they are pregnant? that might be a different and legal matter and would be interesting to persue.

I am guessing that fat lap dancers don't do well either.

"Bb, but my point is that just because men have been shown to have had tendencies to letch over the naked form for centuries it does not prove that it is natural."

well sure, I can see that it's not a given but I think it's worth discussion because there's obviously something about the female form and sex which turns men on particularly the visual - well it seems obvious to me but I could be wrong.

Beanie, so that is still implying it is the men in control and not the women surely.

I don't think it does reall. Just because men are turned on by the physical form (If they are) I don't think women choosing to be a part of an industry which supplies that stimuli puts those men in control of those women. Though I do accept that The wider issue of how women are viewed in society is important too.

Perhaps not the male punter (although I think even that is something to be argued, still), but the owners of the clubs, the pimps, the directors, producers, distributors, etc. ad nauseum. Those are disproportionately men, I would've thought.

But some arguements on here where suggesting that lapdancing is a bit of fun and has nothing to do with sex and yet the men still choose the woman for a private dance. On what do they make their choice?

It would be interesting to see statistics for the number of women vs men in a lapdancing career as well as numbers of disabled dancers and say dancers over the age of 30.

hmmm - well that's not really my argument to be honest. I was just finding it a bit wrong to say that all men who go to lapdancing clubs are sleaze bags, or that enjoying a woman ndance naked for you and paying her cash for it is in someway degrading towards that wome or indeed all women...

I think we have to understand why men get turned on by these tings and I don't think it's something they learn TBH. I think that biologically men are turned on by the visual, though some men have quite moral (moral is not the right word but it's the closest I can get) reasons or repressions which stop them from going to these kinds of places.

oh gosh - I think it has everythig to do with sex to be honest. I don't mean that men who go to lap dancing clubs would automatically sleep with the women if given a chance, but there is certainly something sexual about it. The dancers DO dance to turn the men on, and they do do it in exchange for money. I guess I first entered this thread to say I think it's wrong to then suggest those men can't conrol themselves or are sleazy ....

Exactly - men see it as something sexual and it is not because the women are not interested in sex with them or even interested in them just their cash.

As per previous thread it just sends out mixed messages about what is a sexual signal and what isn't.

My opinion is that it does not show either gender in a good light and stereotypes both sexes.

and my point has been to suggest that maybe its not the fact they cant control themselves,but the fact they cant see any need to?

i dont think all men who visit lap dancing clubs are sleazy scumbags.some of them are weak,easily led types following the crowd,others are just 'normal' men,doing something thats perfectly acceptable in a society that sees women as pieces of meat

The basic question I am trying to decide my views on is - Does the sex industry really make men objectify women and make them more likely to assault them?

If it does, is the answer to cut down the sex industry or to put more effort into teaching people how to respect themselves and each other. Teach them the value of a loving relationship and that there can be much more to it than just sex.

Are people putting far too much emphasis on sex because we are so surrounded by images of sex and people talking about sex all the time. Does this distract us from making connections with people based on other things?

Do men really have the power if lapdancers are taking their money off them because the men are too weak to resist?

Lizinthesticks: while I don't have exact figures, plenty of people who work at the bottom end of the catering industry (kitchen porters, dishwashers, some fast-food chain workers, vegetable pickers, seafood collecters etc) are victims of trafficking and every bit as trapped and enslaved as those sex workers who are victims of trafficking.

AN: there is no reliable evidence at ALL that the sex industry turns previously civilised men into rapists. Many sex workers clients are fully aware that the sex worker is performing/interacting with them for the money and would not be interested in interacting with them otherwise, but the client understands that he is paying for an escapist fantasy with negotiated limits and a set amount of time.
And it's perfectly Ok to want sex without a 'loving relationship'. Enjoying sex for its own sake and being prepared to pay for what you want doesn't mean you are a sociopath who has no respect for others.

BeanieB
Onebatmother, can you provide a link to the source which you got the figures below from?

"in approximately 1/1000000 of the commercial sexual transactions in the world, women are the purchasers."

Sorry beanieb, this was intended to be ironic in its specificity - I'm afraid I've no idea what the actual figures are though I'd really like to know if you do come across them (possibly it's even higher..?)

SGB, I agree that sex is fine outside or inside a loving relationship if both people are consenting. I'm just saying do we fixate so much on sex that we 'forget' to try to find loving relationships AS WELL.

If boys (and girls I suppose) grow up thinking it is all about sex, surrounded by images of girls who look 'up for it' are they more likely to expect sex from girls, for nothing, ie without forming an emotional/communicative bond with them first which lots of women do want. If they expect sex and a woman isn't willing are they more likely to get angry and assault them?

"Exactly - men see it as something sexual and it is not because the women are not interested in sex with them or even interested in them just their cash.

As per previous thread it just sends out mixed messages about what is a sexual signal and what isn't.

My opinion is that it does not show either gender in a good light and stereotypes both sexes."

but what are you implying here, that the messages are so mixed that it's no wonder men don't know when to stop or what to do? Sorry but I think both parties know it's sexual. Women who lapdance and who charge for it know that they are providing a sexual kick, even if they themselves are not sexually aroused but I think it's wrong to even slightly suggest that men are so stupid that they are not aware it's a transaction. Most men (The vast majority) would get their sexual kicks and then be able to carry on with the rest of their evening without being blurred by mixed messages! The message is not mixed anyway. It's Cash for the woman = sexy dance by the woman = good feelings of arousal for the man.

"Does the sex industry really make men objectify women and make them more likely to assault them?"

Some men objectify women and I ma sure that some of the culture they seek out makes this worse bbut it is not more lilkely to make them assault women. IMO.

"while I don't have exact figures, plenty of people who work at the bottom end of the catering industry (kitchen porters, dishwashers, some fast-food chain workers, vegetable pickers, seafood collecters etc) are victims of trafficking and every bit as trapped and enslaved as those sex workers who are victims of trafficking."

Wanking psychos off in the deserted lay by of an obscure b-road has got to be scarier than flipping burgers though, right?

But then - I never was the adventurous type.

DH just said he thinks that:

1. There was more rape in the old days (when there was less accessibility to sexual services/porn) when women were not treated as equally in society eg men thinking marriage gave them a right to sex with their wives whenever they wanted. And that women reported it less because they were less likely to get sympathy from the law.

1. The sex industry gives some men an outlet for their sexual frustrations and without it they would be more frustrated and more likely to rape

1. Decent men are not so stupid that they think because women are looking sexual in magazines etc they are actually 'up for it'.

1. He reckons my relative committed sex crimes, not because of porn but because he is a 'psycho' anyway.

What do you think?

I dunno - I don't like that argument that Porn stops men from raping. it's really insulting to men for a start. As if they will turn to rape when they are sexually frustrated! Men generally grow up with the same social awareness as women they just get different urges. Doesn't mean they all constantly act on them in inapropriate ways and I think it's quite scare that men think this TBH. There was different rape in the 'old days' in that women were being raped in marriage but it was not actually a crime. The law changed that.

His point 3 seems to contradict his point no 2. He thinks there are decent men and indecent men? So surely the indecent men don't increase as the availability of porn decreases.

A sexual predator/rapis is responsible for his own actions and to blame them on a lack of porn (or too much porn if you are arguing the other way) is just such a bad defence.

I agree with his point 4, that is probably the case.

Lizinthesticks: tell that to the realtives of all those CHinese victims of trafficking who drowned in Morecambe Bay.

Research [[https://againstpornography.org/socialsciencestudies.html] here suggests that users of porn will more often than not want to act out the scenarios they view. (In the case of a lap-dance bar, I'd say this means that most men will want to fuck someone during and/or after the experience.) Research in Camden Town recently suggested that incidents of rape increased when several new lap-dance establishments opened in the area (although the research is contested by some).

In the link I posted, look particularly at the Zillman and Bryant studies of 1982-84. Scary stuff. The studies 'were so successful at proving the irreversible negative effects of viewing pornography that ethics boards will not allow further lab studies on the topic to be undertaken.' So we're just conducting a free-market, society-wide expermiment instead. And levels of reported sexual violence are rocketing.