Help to repair relationship with 12 yr old DS before it's too late

[Outofmydepth28]

Please help. I feel completely out of my depth with DS1 at the moment and I don’t know what to do anymore.
(Sorry for the long post!)

He’s 12, in Year 7, and the last few months have been incredibly difficult. At big school he’s doing brilliantly: polite, hardworking, well-liked by teachers, a model student. He is at a state comprehensive but it is quite academic and full-on. By the time he comes home he is exhausted and overwhelmed, and home life has become really difficult.

He’s angry with me constantly. Tiny things turn into huge arguments. He refuses simple requests, ignores boundaries, and speaks to me in ways that are totally unacceptable, telling me "fuck you" and to piss off, etc. Recently he refused to hand over his phone and because he’s physically bigger and stronger than me now, I realised I simply can’t manage situations like that in the way I used to. I don’t want physical confrontations anyway, but it left me feeling powerless. (On this occasion he did eventually hand it over but I keep thinking what would have happened if he hadn't?)

There’s a lot of background to this... His father and I had a very traumatic divorce several years ago involving multiple court proceedings, and repeated accusations to police and social services by exH. All the social services and complaints to police were NFA but it's left me feeling very scarred and I have totally lost faith in the system. ExH wanted to have full custody of both DC although we have a lives with order where they see him EOW and Wed - Thu. He told so many lies about me in the family court... If it had been another court he would have surely been convicted for lying.

We are currently living with my parents because financially I had little choice after the separation, and I know DS1 hates it. He hates sharing a room with DS2, who is 8, he hates not having space, hates feeling different from his peers.
DS2 is awaiting assessment for autism and can be challenging at times, which adds another layer of tension in the house. DS1 often targets him with teasing and cruelty, though I know underneath it all he is not a cruel child. Outside of home he can be incredibly compassionate, with friends' younger children, elderly relatives with dementia, or younger cousins with severe and profound additional needs. That contrast is part of what hurts so much. I know there is still a kind and sensitive boy underneath all this anger.

ExH's parenting style has also changed dramatically over the years, from very hands-off to suddenly strict and punitive, and I think this has put me off putting into place any sanctions because the absolute 180 exH did when he got a new girlfriend who encouraged "sanctions" really scared and upset DS and even now he will cry and say how he misses "the old dad" (the girlfriend is long gone, he has had a string of them and they never last more than a year). Suddenly DS would lose priviliges like no PlayStation for the whole weekend for "back chat". I also know that DS1 protects DS2 when they are with their dad and takes the blame for stuff. He is very much in the protector role when they have contact. The holidays we share 50/50 and I am dreading the summer as they'll be away for 3 weeks and they always come back all over the place. They both used to just be very clingy to the extent they'd panic if I had to use the bathroom but now DS1 is extra upset and angry when he comes back (DS2 still acts clingy).

I’ve always tried to parent gently, talk things through, encourage emotional openness, all the crunchy parenting studf but lately DS completely shuts down any attempt at connection. He mostly wants to be alone in his room on screens. If I try to spend time with him, he usually rejects it. (I attended a workshop on how to parent tweets and it said to join in with their interests so I did this by trying to watch manga with him but he just did not want me there.

Recently he has started criticising everything I do: the food I buy ("UPF shit"), the way I parent ("why are you so agitated?" and "you just take pills and vape"), our financial situation ("why are you always broke? Why do you always buy stuff on Vinted?"). Some of this clearly echoes things said elsewhere; exH is currently on a health-kick and seems to have orthorexic tendencies. He was always getting obsessed about new hobbies, to the extent he would not see me or DC because he was busy with his latest money-making scheme / hobby. DS1 is also angry that the former marital home is now being sold because I had to take it to court as exH refused to sell for many years. He is saying I am making his dad homeless. He doesn't seem to realise I have effectively been homeless and relying on my own parents for several years now.

I work full-time and I’m exhausted. I do my best, but I can’t cook from scratch every night or creates some perfect calm environment. I’m barely surviving at this point. I have a chronic health condition which I believe was triggered by being in an abusive relationship with exH.

What worries me most is how unhappy DS seems underneath the anger. Sometimes after exploding he becomes deeply remorseful, cries uncontrollably, apologises, and seems genuinely distressed by his own behaviour. Tonight we had another huge argument because I wouldn’t let him eat dinner alone in bed. I insisted he eat downstairs with the family and he reacted by shutting himself away and sobbing with frustration. Sometimes he just screams with rage until he is hoarse.

But I’m exhausted, sad, and increasingly worried about both of us.

I tried the Oliver James lovebombing book and it made not a jot of difference.

I absolutely can't ask exH for help; at best he will delight in the fact that I am struggling and at worst he will use anything and everything against me in the family court or the case he is invariablly building against me. Both DC do not want to spend more time with exH; DS1 will say he wants to go live with dad but then later will say he didn't mean it.

I have gone through DS' phone and I can't find anything untoward in any messages (apart very insidious criticism of me from exH). I don't think he is being bullied and he isn't looking at anything misogynistic it is just silly stuff.

I'm so exhausted. I hate seeing DS so unhappy. I'm so ashamed of the way he treats me and DS2 and can't talk to anyone about it; most families avoid getting too close to me or exH as everyone knows about our "messy divorce" although they don't know the abuse I suffered. If anyone's read "why does he do that?" exH was the Water Torturer type. He made me feel like I was going mad, I ended up being referred to AMHT and he was really keen to get me labelled as having BPD which I don't have. I feel like I need to start repairing things NOW before DS becomes a teenager.

Help??

My son is 16 and obsessed with the healthy eating too, avoiding carbs. I get him to cook us vegetable stir fries and egg based dishes. He likes the responsibility and being the one to "provide". And I love not cooking!

I would start to show him your financial planning. The money you have. How much everything costs. He will then "get" why you use Vinted and why avocado and steak are not every day foods in most households of average means.Get him involved. Over the holidays ask him to find places where you could cut costs so you could (say) afford steak once a week.

He just wants to move out of the child space into a more grown up space. And that's why he's challenging you. He is immature so frames them as an attack. You should treat them as questions.

BTW - take screen shots of your ex's disparaging messages, you may need these to prove parental alienation if things worsten

I am so sorry OP, he sounds awful and that is likely a large part of why DS is playing up. You sound amazing though, hang in there.

Your son needs professional support to deal with past and current events. Professional support for him needs to be a priority.

Thank you.

I have tried to get him involved but is not always possible due to my working hours / sharing kitchen with others.

Even as recently as 6m ago he would cook every Tuesday night but now he just wants to blob on the sofa, or in his bed.

I have tried to talk to him about money and will do this again as he doesn't seem to get the value of stuff. Or that he can get the brands he likes because they are from Vinted. Or he could have ¼ of the clothes he has if I had got them new.

Thank you, that is kind of you to say

I really feel that if exH were not so horrible towards me things would be much, much easier. But he seems to prioritise attacking me over being a sensible co-parent.

I will make a referral to CAMHS today but I am not sure how long it will take, their waiting list is dreadfully long and he isn't in crisis so not sure they will prioritise seeing him. It would avert a crisis later on down the line but from my understanding they are just firefighting and dealing with the most extreme cases.

I would also be worried exH would block any therapy or counseling; even with the very low-level emotional support he got in school when he was small after our divorce exH was against this and had to be persuaded to allow this by the head teacher.

I do try and give him as much space as possible e.g. having the lounge to have a blob in after school before DS2 gets in from the childminder and DS2 mostly sleeps in with me and plays with toys downstairs so although he does technically share a bedroom he has it virtually to himself. I would love for him to have his own room but realistically I am not going to be able to buy somewhere that will have 3 bedrooms so will have to be looking at 2 beds and then putting up a stud wall or something.

For some reason exH makes DS1 and DS2 share a room when they stay with him even though it is a 4-bed house.

Thanks for this
I have been honest as much as I can; e.g. he got cross with me and told me I had reported his dad to the police, but I explained that it was the other way around.
I have explained repeatedly that the house was meant to be for all of us to live in which means it now has to be sold as we have got divorced.. When the DC were younger I explained that they had to see their dad and when a bit older I said that it was due to a judge. But have not said it has always been exH that has taken me to court. Thing is, he is now saying I manipulated him against his father when I haven't

OP. I was in exactly your situation when DS was 12. All the same circumstances and dynamics.We had all sorts of help from CAMHS and social services. CAMHS recommended DS had a test for autism but exH said he was fine and talked him out of it. He’s been thoroughly poisoned and has a fixed way of thinking, so the poison sticks. I haven’t seen him for 3.5 years now (he’s 22) and the one time I turned up to his workplace, I wasn’t welcomed. He says he has locked all the trauma away and seeing me just unsettled him. So I hope your story has a happier ending and can’t provide much advice other than to try to get him tested for neurodiversity as early as you can. ExH is trying the same, now, on much younger DD, age 12, but she’s reacting differently but still being horrible to me. She’s been diagnosed with ADHD and CAMHS want to re test her for autism. I’m coping a little better this time around as I can see it through a neurodiverse lens and change my behaviour a little to manage it. It’s horrible when the father just can’t see the damage he’s doing.

It's good you are looking at ADHD referral. I also really agree that some kind of counselling or therapy for your son would probably be worth it if you can wrangle it at all.

There is a book, it is really long and most of it is absolutely no use at all, but there is a very useful section about how to use consequences in a way which is not so much "I'm going to hold this over you and wield it like a weapon until you back down" and if they don't back down you make the "weapon" bigger or scarier (all of which is related to establishing a hierarchy of power, which I think is built into a lot of thinking about punishment/consequences). It's more about having a boundary of your own and using the consequence to establish that without it being about wielding power absolutely. This is helpful particularly when your son is getting physically larger and stronger, possibly stronger than you, because at some point you will lose the physical advantage.

The book is ostensibly about child-to-parent violence or CPV. And I realise you haven't mentioned that, but it's why the consequences section is about how to use consequences to hold boundaries without it being about wielding more power or being "stronger". And so I just wanted to explain why I was recommending a book about CPV when you are not dealing with CPV.

Anyway it's called Who's In Charge by Eddie Gallagher. The relevant part starts as a chapter called "Acceptable and Unacceptable Behaviour" and honestly I would skip everything before that or you'll never get through the book. You can go back and read it later if you're curious but it doesn't really add anything useful.

Then I would maybe look at some resources around PDA. I think some of this backlash you're getting to every single attempt you make to try and connect with him could be reactance, which is a sort of knee jerk defensive response where autonomy feels threatened. Individuals with a PDA profile are essentially experiencing reactance all the time, and their backlash to try to re-establish autonomy are called "equalising". Your DS might not have a PDA profile specifically but there are more resources around understanding PDA than dealing with reactance, and you'll probably find some useful stuff if you look up how to deal with equalising.

If you have the option to pursue therapy for yourself that might also be really helpful. Ideally you need to take the emotion out of your attempts to connect with DS, although that is probably impossible given that he is your son. But if you can step away from the fears that you have around him, specifically - which I would guess are complicated but probably revolve around whether he's going to turn into a man like his dad, or go down another bad path, whether or not you have any influence on him, whether or not he actually loves you, whether or not you're handling this right - if you can work through those fears which will probably take external help, and feel more confident in yourself that DS will be OK and your relationship will be OK long term, you'll probably find you're more able to laugh things off in the moment rather than experiencing every mini rejection as a painful/scary sign of possible impending doom, which is likely to colour the way you then respond if that makes sense? I don't mean this as a criticism BTW, because this is an enormously hard situation and you're doing brilliantly - many people would have already given up.

I hope there is something helpful in here anyway, and I do hope things get better.

I am certain your are all wonderful parents but if I have to read the phrase "gentle parenting" again, I'm taking the bridge.

I have this same problem. I believe my ex has significantly alienated my son.
You have to be careful you are not actually in the territory of being emotionally abused by your son down the line. I believe there's a higher risk with the ex like this and son being Autistic ( he definitely sounds it). Some things you mention sound a little manipulative. And I understand your son is struggling, but I feel you come across as vulnerable in your caring nature. 🙏

The comment about the phone being taken away to prevent contact with dad sounds exactly like what I've dealt with. My son directly accused me of all sorts, has called me mentally ill and thus adopted the pattern of behaviour towards me like my ex. I believe my ex to be high functioning autistic now too. ( This is not to put down Autistic people btw). There are some where the behaviour overlaps with narcissistic personality I truly believe ( look at some threads on here ref this).

When your son ever uses comments like that ref dad; you have to be prepared and be strong. I feel this is quite manipulative. I would not even argue or defend that. You don't mention or reference it, you simply say, your phone is gone for x amount of time and will be returned at x time. Don't even refer to his dad.

I'm in a very difficult dynamic like this but it's escalated severely with my own teenager going down a road of a pattern of behaviour I believe to be abusive.

I'd try get through to Women's Aid - not easy. I tried many times. Any way you can reduce communicating with your ex is best.

Oh gosh he’s been watching the fresh and fit lot, the diet change is indicative.

I’m sorry but he’s defiantly down the manosphere rabbit hole.
And if he wants different food versions when not with his dad, I suspect he’s accessing it himself.

Honestly it’s so bad I would remove all his internet access unless it is supervised. Get him a flip phone to call his dad. He’s 12, he doesn’t need to be online at all. And do room searches often because guarantee his dad will buy him a new phone. It can get posted back to his father. Every time. It’s not allowed in your house.

I’d be inclined, if I could afford it, to take him away on a long holiday somewhere in nature, just you and him and the other boy, camping or something. Something with activities where you have to work together. No internet access. Honestly I’d say send him off to one of those outback ranch things. But I hear they are poorly regulated so might not be safe to do that.

But he needs to be taken away from unhealthy internet influences, and from his father for a while so you guys can talk without him being brainwashed.

Agreed
Ev en if OP cant see it on his phone it doesn't mean it isnt happening.

💐💐💐💐 for OP

I agree that there seems to be some overlap with narcissism and autistic behaviours but you get flamed for even hinting at that.

it could be because autistic people struggle with some types of empathy (even if they’re kind and well intentioned) and narcissists struggle to be empathetic.

but I come from a family with a lot of untreated ( but very obviously) autistic men. I think the trauma of being ‘different’ and the problems with being different could lead some autistic people to develop narcissistic traits to protect themselves.

and while being autistic doesn’t make you an abuser, autism doesn’t mean you can’t be abusive.

There was also a study a few years ago that linked children with autism to having higher rates of narcissistic parents.

Think this is it, but I’m not sure as I think the one I read was more narcissist specific.

https://www.neuroscigroup.us/abstracts/APT-1-101

I agree that there seems to be some overlap with narcissism and autistic behaviours but you get flamed for even hinting at that.

Replace "narcissism" with "narcissistic behaviours" and you are right.

Both involve a failure to display empathy towards others. The underlying reasons for the behaviours are wildly different.

Just like how migraine and shoulder strain can both cause unilateral headaches, but for wildy different underlying causes.

FFS I thought we'd finally got rid of the "refridgerator mother" myth. Increasing evidence is that autism is linked to certain genes.

If parents are being labelled narcs, it's probably undiagnosed autism. Some of the behaviours, such as emotional dysregulation, withdrawal from other people, and failure to display empathy, overlap.

Who says it is necessarily the mother?

And it appears it's not a myth if there are studies showing links doesn't it.

I actually looked into it in the first place because I noticed lots of people on here talking about having abusive parthers and also dealing with autism in children.

Of course it absolutely could be the case that their abusive partners are autistic too. But then you're potentially in dangerous territory because the implication links autism with abuse.

You'd also, have to concede that the kids themselves may not be autistic, but instead, on the road to developing cluster b personality disorders. Because if it can go one way with one thing being mistaken for the other, then it could surely go the other way too.

Why wouldn't it be possible that certain genetic influences could yield certain results in ofspring?Psychopaths do not feel empathy so, theoreticallly could they pass that down to their children but in a different form? Could their be relationships in the genes somewhere?

Clearly some people feel it warrants study. It gas nothing to do with 'icy mothers' and everything to do with dna and the tendencies that lie within it.

100% agree with this, many people need time on their own to recover from the day especially if they are over-stimulated. Could you have his brother in with you a few times a week?

Im sorry you are going through this, it sounds really tough.

Yeah - I totally get that and agree that it is often narcissistic behaviours rather than NPD.

though my ex parter is autistic AND narcissistic. And I know quite a few people who say the same about other characters in their life.

Theres a lot of ND people in my family who display the full range of personalities and dispositions as NT people- from absolutely amazing lovely, thoughtful people to self centred twats.

But I do wonder if there’s some kind of link? Anyone can become a narcissist- but perhaps if you face shame and embarrassment growing up for being ‘different’, you cope with it by telling yourself you are special. It may make you more susceptible ( especially if you tend to exhibit similar symptoms- albeit for a different reason)

im not ND bashing - just trying to understand

Thanks for this. I am sorry you're going through similar 🫂

You have to be careful you are not actually in the territory of being emotionally abused by your son down the line really hits home and is what is making it so difficult as already he is big and strong, and can be extremely loud when he is angry and distressed. I'm not scared of him but if he is still effing and jeffing at me when he is say, 16 or 17 then it will be genuinely quite intimidating for me especially on my own as a single woman.

Yes that seems sensible to just not refer to exH at all.

I have said during a calmer moment that the next time he swears at me, I'm taking his phone for a week. So I have given fair warning. I do think partly the issue is that I don't want my sanctions to come back and be used against me in the FC but I can't live my life worrying about exH and what he might say about me to the judge. Last time he just lied anyway so 🤷‍♂️

Oh my gosh I'm really sorry reading your post about what all you have been throught 😪 sending hugs xxx
I think I will definitely push for an autism Dx. It has honestly never occurred to me that DS1 may be autistic but I think reading the posts others have kindly written has made me think that there is a distinct possibility. Many thanks and good luck with everything happening with your DD x

That's so interesting, I will read that 🙏. I can believe that from my experience. I'm in a narc heavy family system and I see a higher risk of issues in Autistic people raised in this dynamic. If the parent is struggling to understand the needs there may be issues with attachment; absolutely no one's fault. But that will perpetuate any possibility of certain environmentally influenced personality types I understand.

I believe there's a heritable factor to narcissism and NPD types also.

Anyway, I hope that little aside gelps any older mums here perpetually blaming themselves for the behaviour of others they feel responsible for.