Married to someone with Asperger’s/ASD/ ND: support thread 18

[Bluebellforest1]

This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, some have ND children. It is a support thread and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations and try to keep it specific to you and your partner.

these threads have been going about 10 years now and have been a lifeline of support for many of us.

Previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5447569-married-to-someone-with-aspergersasdnd-support-thread-17?latest=1

Hi everyone- I’m just reading this thread in hope of a lightbulb minute re my newish guy ha! Thought I’d also add a post to see if anyone answers/comments as I’m in a muddle.

I probably will use incorrect terms or stuff and if I do I apologise right now and don’t mean to offend.

Bit of background I have a lot of ADHD traits myself I have realised and discussed in counselling. At 60 I’m leaving it at that with my muddled workarounds! I also have a daughter on ASD - no full diagnosis but ed psychs, forensic psychiatrist etc all agreed on this as a kid though she is now an adult - she has been, and still is, such hard work in ways you’d all understand- and it’s also sad to see her struggle but refuse help with this too - I’m accepting she sometimes loves me fiercely but sometimes hates how I am - I’m never always sure what is fully in her head at any minute though.

I realised late my mum was ASD - explained a lot (I’m adopted by the way so not hereditary stuff here)

Basically, the big barrier, though I accept/accepted it was a slight feel of ‘awkward’ and communicating clashes - never a full relationship in a way - but that’s ok there.

Anyway - point of this! I met a guy a few months back - I’m 60 and had terribly chaotic or awful relationships previously and mainly enjoyed solo - but this guy was an unexpected bonus in so many ways - genuinely lovely, off scale chemistry, fun dates, talk about everything. Our text comms have been hard for me to navigate from the start, but I’ve learned his ways - but it’s all now starting to really feel ‘awkward around the edges’ if anyone gets that rather than easier as we progress. I don’t know if I overthink and he’s certainly different to my ma and daughter - but there are starting to surface some underlying similarities- he misunderstands me at times on a startling level - he doesn’t grasp some basic concepts on some stuff at all despite being very bright/successful, his thinking is rigid though he’s polite about it - he made a very cutting comment once previously from a very random chat and totally unexpectedly (as my daughter does) - he collects and categorises and rates most everything in a top 3 or 10! Much more, but minor I guess as none of the aggression or ‘nasty’ that I’ve handled with ma and kid. So maybe I overthink he may be ASD based on my experiences - idk? Maybe it doesn’t matter either.

I just feel that hazy sort of barrier - and not sure if it will go away or not. With apologies to you all I have, possibly unfairly, avoided any potential relationship with anyone ASD - I’ve had enough of managing it - a date told me he was autistic and it took all of me not to leave there and then halfway through the date - I know that’s a bit mean.

This time it’s been awesome whilst I wasn’t ’seeing the barrier’ and it’s hard to decide if it’s possible to ever have the connection I would like or if I can accept not to have it - or if I should leave but know it’s unlikely to refund the unexpected connection we have in some ways.

Sorry for the lengthy post - this thread is very helpful to understand more stuff - particularly for my daughter who struggles so much but also is a concern to me for when I’ve gone and her siblings have to pick up. Guess dating is minor but I was enjoying it lol!

Welcome @MsJinks . I hope you’ll find our little corner nice and safe.

one thing is standing out to me
So maybe I overthink he may be ASD based on my experiences - idk? Maybe it doesn’t matter either.

I think, for me, this is key.
In some ways, the diagnosis doesn’t matter. It makes total sense you are weary of anyone with autism seeing your own experience. But really what’s important is how you feel within the relationship, whether your needs are fulfilled or not.

All the little things that you are finding grating, can you explain why you feel like this?
im getting the feeling that maybe they are reall annoyances for you and at the same time that theyre difficult because they’re a reminder of your mum and dd? Did I get that right?

Hi @SpecialMangeTout3- thank you for your lovely and kind response. It looks a great thread - I’ve found a couple similar on MN over the years as well as AIBU ha! But they have been a blessing.

I probably should have been around these threads before due to daughter but I have a terrible habit of burying my head unless there’s live action needs addressing in front of me! So many of you are so good at handling relatives’ needs - I’m in awe but will continue to look for tips.

You have read it well - although I’ve (unusually for me!) not found him annoying mainly, but a bit puzzling and at times bizarre. As I look overall at the picture he does indeed seem to have similar traits to my ma and daughter, though a very different person and immediate presentation - but then I started overthinking as I do ha! I think there’s a lot to suggest ASD without going into it all - and I’m not sure it really matters as you say - but I came here I guess to see how folk handle these ASD type traits, if it’s worth keeping going - or not.

Not very nice of me but I have a bit of a fear of ASD folk in a way - my daughter has been very violent and aggressive at times but so unexpectedly each time it ended making me nervous - my ma could be similar but not violent - it makes me on edge though I should learn to deal with it better my default is avoid until I can’t!

It is I think the lack of being totally able to be myself, the hazy sort of awkward I still feel between us that I can’t define or explain - it’s not big but feels like it’s not going with time. Investing in someone who can’t read me or my communication well and can’t always respond as I’d like - zero understanding or interest in some stuff - though kind, loyal and thoughtful too - I just don’t know if I can or should and wandered here to see how folk do it - ups and downs of it.

I’m not sure this makes much sense from me either lol but thought it might just do on this thread.

Thanks again.

@MsJinks ASD and ADHD people are naturally great at pattern recognition (and so are traumatised people). Perhaps what you are picking up is your brains internal warning system telling you that it’s picking up a pattern of behaviour that it recognises. A pattern that hurts it in the past so it’s trying to protect you. We have a natural tendency to ignore and dismiss our internal warning signs as we’ve often spent a lifetime being told we over react. It causes conflict between our natural instincts and our doubt.

Yes it does make sense.

What you’re describing, if I understand well, are your expectations from a relationship. The fact you want the other person to be able to read you well and communicate in a similar way. (Which is fair enough btw)

I also suspect you want things to be ‘easy’ - no need to think twice about the way you’re saying things etc… again totally understandable.

None of the things you describe could allow me to say whether it’s worth pursuing or not. We all have different boundaries or what’s acceptable or not (bar tge obvious abusive stuff). And our needs from relationship are different too.

Can you elaborate on why you don’t feel you can be yourself? What happens if you do?

I’m in two minds about instincts.

Some times they are great indicators - like if I meet a guy in the street in the evening and I get a bad vibe.
Some times theyre not. Theyre the left over of some protection mechanism that used to be very protective then but don’t represent the reality now. Like when I am with a very good friend, she makes a comment that raise my alarm bells (hypervigilence kicking in) and yet the situation was all about her and her own struggles (with whatever was happening in her life).
Ive had tge Samecwith my dcs. And I thank god that I never acted on those instincts.

@Marshmallowkiss- that’s really interesting. I have a super nose for jealousy but the relationship involving that was super traumatic albeit a lifetime ago - I can’t even identify how I know sometimes - but the kids found it useful lol.

I do though overlook flags in my relationships that I see a mile off in others. This guy is probably the nicest I found ha so I’m probably trying to rationalise or excuse or circumvent my gut thoughts tbh. Otoh I don’t wish to ruin a good thing by overthinking or correlating wrongly.

I’m not naturally a worrier or anxious - I tend to forget what may be others’ stressful events, such as bathroom caving in, poor day at work - either forgotten very fast or I think ‘fuck it’ and walk away - not necessarily good at all - but then I weirdly worry re personal relationships like here - I dislike myself doing this!

Thank you for this reply - really interesting as well as helpful.

Just an avenue of thought. Over thinking can be a self protection mechanism as you say. It can be based in the past, in perception or in reality. That’s why it’s a good avenue of thought. It may well be just past experiences blurring the boundaries between reality and perception but it could well be also based the here and now. Being invalidated by an ASD parent growing up can interfere with how you listen to your internal systems. It can also make you hyper sensitive to potential other sources of invalidation. I would pick in this instance a partner with good empathy and perspective taking as the alternative could end up being a cycle of doubt and triggers and confusion.

Exactly what I’d like - what we’d all like I think!

I guess I’m wondering if there is a ceiling on this guy’s capacity for this and if I’d find that liveable with or not. I have noticed a limit to my relatives’ capacities for this and tbh it made me sad for my Dad, who adored my Mum - and she him, as far as she could - very transactional though - Hard to fully define again!

I’ve been the best version of myself I guess in early dating and older age lol - but I tend to rabbit away and chat and hope the poor recipient gets it - even with that severely moderated there are glaring omissions in what he ‘gets’ imo - oddly when he’s pretty bright and debates well but some stuff is like I’m speaking Japanese, similarly a difficulty seeing my point of view on specific stuff, though he accepts I hold it - I’m just wrong ha - I find it frustrating and so don’t go there already in chats and let him get on with it. I’m already careful about not being as direct as I might be and my natural sarcasm is getting obviously to be a no go area - even dialled right back (to be the nice me!) it’s been hard for him.

He’s also particularly polite and lovely - but I’ve had one unfiltered view of me come out unexpectedly and I wonder now what he thinks below the surface. This might be as I’ve seen this stuff up close with my daughter and it’s disconcerting but I accept this conflicting view she has of me - it’s ok.

Main thing is it feels slightly constrained still - on text and at end of dates - just awkward and I’m not sure why and not sure I’m happy with it - guess I’m debating if it’ll go or not - it’s odd - I’ve had far, far worse guys but it’s felt not awkward at least strangely.

@Marshmallowkiss Well I think you’ve said the same thing than me?
That your ‘gut feeling’ can be the signal of something happening. Or not.

And yes trauma (not just an ASD parent) can make it harder to be able to listen to your own voice and trust it. Just like, as we both said, it can muddle things and make you think some stuff is happening when it isn’t.

I don’t think it’s wise to chose a partner just in whether they ‘trigger your doubts’ or not. I think self assurance and knowing what’s important to you comes from within. That’s something only you can establish.
Granted a trustful, caring environment makes it easier. But it doesn’t mean that because you have a trustful, caring environment you then will get no doubts at all (see the impact of trauma) And I don’t think it’s right to rely on someone else to ensure you’re never doubting. Too big of an undertaking for anyone and quite unfair to ask them to do that too.

The discussion on gut feelings is interesting - I get them but can’t always rely on them - in fact sometimes I have them completely upside down, which is disconcerting - otoh I think I ignore some too easily.

I’m confident in some of my assessments of others - I strongly believe we can sense danger too - micro stuff subconsciously I think there.

I’ve had traumatic relationships but not sure how much they impact how I see guys - though I accept they might and over ponder scenarios in case I’m being hyper vigilant. I’d never thought an ASD parent may contribute to this - I had a hard time connecting with my mum as a kid - it was strained and I ended up a bad behaved kid but I just thought that was me or later perhaps I had some ADHD chaos going on, or possibly as I was adopted - so that is interesting.

I’m scared of unpredictability though - can’t relax and that’s from mainly my daughter and maybe a bit my first marriage (he was later diagnosed schizophrenic) - I turn to avoid and/or run - my brain screams it at me - I wish it didn’t as I need to be more useful to my ASD daughter. Since we have lived apart this has strangely got worse on my side a I cannot always face her and when I have to do so it’s hard - I’m not sure how to reframe it to myself? I definitely need to - I despise myself for it tbh.

You are just a human being and you deserve someone who can take your words and your behaviour and know what to do with it. Someone who can hold space for you as you would for them. The man you have described doesn’t sound like he could do that. I have found in my personal experience that these triggers and these feelings disappear when they reach an understanding ear. It’s not asking for too much to find a soft landing sometimes. Just because someone comes into a relationship without trauma doesn’t mean they won’t develop it later. That’s when many people come to realise that their partners can’t support them. You already know the type of person you need so I would arm myself with this knowledge and take seriously when he says you are already wrong so he lets you speak.

@MsJinks for how long have you known him?

I personally haven’t experienced all my bad feelings or triggers just disappearing because someone listened to me. They are still there, just not activated as often or as strongly. And I wouldn’t want to put that responsibility onto my partner anyway.

But you seemed to have quite a bit of self insight on what’s going on and the whole grey area of ‘I tend to soother over/make myself small for others’ and also ‘I can recognise patterns and small things that raise warning lights’.

Your need for predictability is an important one. Can you explain how his behaviour gives you this ‘bring unpredictable’ feeling?

@MsJinks whether this man is ASD or not, whether he has a ceiling on his relational capacity or not, are you OK with it if this is as good as it gets?

You’re on your best behaviour, and you can see that he is being extra polite - and it still feels effortful and awkward, with missed connections and crossed wires and little flexibility.

What happens when either of you eventually tires of being on your best behaviour?

How would you feel if his health declined and you ended up in a caregiving situation, without ever having experienced a carefree honeymoon period, let alone a fun, expressive, relaxed relationship with him to begin with?

Any other considerations of what’s instinct & what’s trauma, what’s ASD and what’s personality, are unsolvable intellectual puzzles and beside the point, IMO.

What if this is as good as it gets? That’s the crucial question when you feel unsure at the outset of any relationship.

Yeah I think Voltaire is right. If this is as good as it gets is it enough? The fact you’re on here asking how to handle it, how we folks “cope”…

I can tell you many of us are not coping, quite a lot of us are divorcing… many of us with autoimmune diseases I think due to all the stress of not being “got”. The best time for me and ex were the first six months… then he slowly withdrew and abandoned me within the relationship. Stayed married for 20y. It was incredibly lonely.

Yes it had that awkwardness and I override because I just wanted to be with someone and he seemed kind, stable, dependable, but in the end this turned into rigid, controlling and dismissive.

Id be very very careful. Me personally, I’d run away. I don’t want to cope anymore. I want someone if I ever date again, for there just to be some kind of ease between us. Sole fluidity. With ex it was his way and I had to adapt… 😪

Thank you all for being so kind and helpful- it’s very much appreciated and I’ll keep on here to see if I can find a way to progress with my daughter too.

@Morrisons26- interesting about auto immune disorders as I have several. Actually I give similar advice to my daughters as Voltaire and also ‘it doesn’t ultimately matter why he’s as he is, it matters if you can live with it’. I’m really sorry you had those 20 years - that’s very hard. Yes, ease is what I’m looking for too.

@VoltaireMittyDream- you’re right - as good as it gets, is it enough! I am swayed by his niceness, brightness and insane chemistry I never expected at 60 - tmi - but it plays in. It is failing on comms and misunderstandings now - I don’t think it’s gonna get better just more ‘scratchy’

@SpecialMangeTout3- the unpredictability- I may be overthinking but I often chat with ASD daughter just fine then it switches and I’m just everything wrong - narcissistic, unfeeling bitch etc - but it comes from nowhere to me (and the sister who gets same - she doesn’t do it with the others). I was debating a book with date and put forward a further opinion and he just switched and said ‘you just have to be right - you think you’re better than everyone’ - to me it came from nowhere the ‘better than’ - I was hurt as I don’t want to be a person like that. It was so different I guess to what I expected from him - maybe it’s an overstep but I’m now wondering what he’s actually thinking under his nice exterior and when I’ll get those unfiltered views again - but it struck me as so similar to my daughter, my ma too to an extent. I don’t do well with it though is bottom line whether I’m a ‘better than’ or not!
@Marshmallowkiss- I don’t think he could hold space for me in that way - he’s lovely, listens to some stuff and offers his moderate thoughts - mainly he believes in not overthinking anything. All that is ok but whilst I wouldn’t tell an early date some stuff I can’t see I’d ever tell him as he wouldn’t know what to do with it - it’s very nice - mostly was anyway lol - but not that

Anyway we had a text spat last night - I was just tired of holding my nice girl responses ha - so I was more direct about the oblivious last minute planning - that’s on me but I wasn’t OTT and I value directness though try to moderate my blunt to most. I knew when I sent it he won’t get why - so it was pointless but I was tired of moderating myself I guess - it doesn’t really matter why he won’t get why though as you’ve all said, and I agree - it’s getting all too awkward sadly whatever the reason.

Thanks again - not only helpful but really interesting - as I say I’ll be hanging around to try ‘get’ my daughter a bit better than I’m doing now.

Have people heard of the Cassandra effect. I didn’t know there was such a word. It’s sad that someone’s disability can have this effect. The term just sounds like c-ptsd, I can’t think of why it needs a different name. Is this actually recognised?

Cassandra effect is specifically about NT partners living with an ND partner.
Its not recognised and many autistic advocates have a major issue with it.

Cptsd and the Cassandra effect are imo two very different things.

CPTSD is a condition that affects the person. The symptoms eg hypervigilence apply in any context, with anyone.
Cassandra syndrome describes what happens in the context of ONE relationship. It certainly doesn’t say those behaviours have ‘spread’ to other areas in the life of the NT person.

Ofc in some cases, distress frim a ‘mismatched’ can become cptsd. But that’s not what the Cassandra syndrome is about.

It’s sad that someone’s disability can have this effect.

Tbh I’m not surprised at all that autism has a big impact on relationship. We all know the impact having an autistic child can have on the parents and siblings. The accommodations that are required both from the parents and the siblings, despite the fact they are children themselves.

Unfortunately, the difficulties experienced by autistic people don’t disappear as they reach adulthood. That's why it’s a protected characteristic etc…
So, even though most autistic adults have developed ways to mitigate those problems, theyre still here. I’d say even more visible within the context of a partnership, simply because that’s the place autistic people often stop masking. And it’s a less predictable environment that say work or a club where they practice their hobby/special interest.

I feel that Cassandra syndrome describes how it feels from the NT side. Just like we also have descriptions of how it feels to be autistic in an NT world.
And the bottom line is that it’s hard work on both sides.

I’d be quite careful in saying that it’s the disability that causes the friction and the problems. First because it would be quite ableist to reduce issues in an ASD/NT marriage to autism.
But more importantly because those issues happen in context. Two people are involved there. Eg You might have a very willing autistic person living with an NT that understands nothing about autism and presses all their buttons leading to meltdowns and overwhelm.

In the end, it’s curiosity and the wish to do your best that makes the difference.
And at times, this will be enough. And sometimes, it won’t be enough fur both of them to have their needs filled.

But I think it starts with curiosity about what the relationship is actually like for the other person, rather than starting from ‘autism is a disability that makes life hard for the partner’. That feels far too simplistic to me

It appears in some research that it’s communication across neurotypes that is problematic, I really liked this ‘telephone game’ experiment where the message got through with just AS and just NT groups but broke down in mixed groups. https://learnbehavioral.com/blog/myth-autistic-people-lack-empathy

It’s a lonely experience being surrounded by my ND people. I think it’s the part where they don’t realise that they play a part in the wellbeing of those around them. I guess they just don’t feel responsibility for others. Like we can make each other feel good if we are down, we can make people feel welcome or not. Mine do not show up and they don’t require you to show up. If you are sad it’s not something they are going to do anything about. They seem to have no responsibility for other people’s feelings.

Being ND and being raised by ND and now married to one with a ND family I wonder if it’s me who doesn’t really understand what a relationship is for. I don’t know if a relationship is meant to make you feel better when you are sad? I always say to my children that it’s two way, how the other person feels directly impacts them. Or it should impact them, someone in your family feeling sad should impact and make you feel sad for them and want to offer comfort. All of this stuff really confuses me and I really struggle to form bonds with people who aren’t affected by my sadness, people whose trajectory is not affected by anything in my life. I am affected by the feelings of others and I do things for them. If someone isn’t affected by me saying I’m sad, even to the point where they shut the conversation down that in my head means they don’t love me, it’s how this feels.

@Marshmallowkiss- that’s very sad to read, I recognise my daughter has similar feelings that her family (and her ex that has caused latest difficulties), just haven’t shown up for her as she needs/needed. I don’t think our actions intend to upset her - though I can only guarantee that with family of course.

She actually also doesn’t feel we are as affected by others’ sadness as she is - obviously most hurtful being her own. I’m not sure it’s NT but I do get sad but then get on - as her siblings do - it’s our way of continuing with our lives. Tbh we are struggling to understand the massive and ongoing impact her latest break up had on her as it’s a bit baffling to us but we do also genuinely care how she is, and we are sad, and sorry too to see her sadness - I just haven’t the capacity to carry it with me as completely as she does perhaps. We also want to fix I think whereas my daughter wants us to just feel with her naybe.

For me, and her sisters then, it’s not a lack of feeling, but maybe based in different understanding of what each person needs. I know my daughter shows up anywhere folk are having a bad time and helps with time, thoughtful words or small care packages - she wouldn’t leave my side when my Dad passed for example - but she feels deeply for anyone in a poor situation. She does this even when it’s poorly impacting her coping levels as she strongly believes it’s right - but it is over and above what I or her sisters would/could do - it’s massively appreciated though I think sometimes she doesn’t realise this.

I know my daughter (and my mum) interpreted ‘support’ differently to I - as in there’d be an awful lot of doing for them - providing service and basically sorting out what they cannot over long periods of time and sitting with them through it - whereas I interpret it as having a bit of input, maybe give some direction - there’s definitely been large communication gaps with the support my daughter wants and the support she got - whether that’s down to ND/NT comms or us as individuals I don’t know.

I try to remember that as much as I don’t understand my daughter it must be harder for her as she struggles to understand all of us plus the wider world but it’s easy to forget.

Your explanation of how you feel has been really helpful in reminding me to consider my impact on my daughter and others though I’m so sorry you feel lonely.

I do agree we all impact each other - I think that’s a great way to explain to your kids - but they will all run with it differently- can you explain to adults in your life one thing that would help make you know that your feelings are recognised, and do impact on them?

Thank you for your reply. In my own case there is very little that I could say that would make any difference. They like you say can’t hold space for me for any length of time. I remember at the end with my dad he was almost happy to die as a lifetime with my mum made his very miserable.

Things don’t happen to someone and then that impact just disappears. Like your daughter I suppose things happen to me and and they affect me for a long time. For example I have health issues that are life long and know one cares. No one has offered any support or any kind words. It simply doesn’t exist. No one has changed any aspect of their life where mine has changed forever. I can’t fathom this as for those I love I would be changed with them. I feel like they don’t understand why a situation would affect a person.

I have been sad this week as I share my older daughter. I have mostly full custody but in the summer she has gone for 2 weeks. I am a mess. I don’t hear a peep in those 2 week and I miss her terribly. Not one single person has asked how I am. I put out a post to say I was feeling sad and no one replied. No one has brought up the subject around me. I just want someone to share this with me. I feel a bit depressed tbh and all I see is family with happy faces going about their business with zero space for me.