Morally dubious suggestions regarding cheating

[exhaustDAD]

I have been thinking a lot about a thread and all the comments in it from the last few days - been deleted since. A woman shared her story of having an affair, long story short, she gave herself the excuse that it was just to break the boredom in her life, the dull routine of raising kids and a long-standing relationship. She concluded it all by saying that she would not tell her husband about her long affair. The comments shocked me. While the vast majority was on the same page I find myself on in a situation like this, there were some that absolutely shocked me to my core. I believe when you cheat, the damage is done, it cannot be reversed, but the grownup thing - the right thing - to do is to at least own up to what you've done, and tell your partner. That way, even though it is painful, the partner doesn't have to live a lie, and they can decide what they would want going forward, giving them some agency in the relationship they signed up for. That's what I believe in. I think it is despicable to just cosy back into your old life, you internally forgive yourself, how convenient, and make your partner live a lie, thinking they have a faithful partner. The thought of potentially living an entire life like this is such a disrespectful thing. I care very little for excuses like "it was a mistake" - cheating is ALWAYS a choice. Nobody is forcing anyone to cheat. Especially long-lasting affairs, please, that's as far from a mistake as it can be.

Anyway.. There were comments that urged the woman not to tell her husband, because it would just invite drama, and distrust going forward. And why would anyone want to to do that? First of all - excuse me?! Going forward? Second - How could anyone look in the mirror and sleep well doing something like this? Just be so self-absorbed that you think it's ok to lie for ever about something like this, disrespecting the partner they supposedly love? Like petty children trying to get away with a stain on the carpet. We are adults, civilised, grownups... Or at least, we should be. The argument of "oh they will be devastated" will never stand for me. It might be painful, but at least it is the truth. And don't know about you, I'd rather live in the truth than a lie that I have no say in. (Those who said they would rather not know if their partner cheated are also beyond my comprehension.. wow)

What really got me was this - I have seen a username or two, who were very fact of the matter, casually supported not telling the husband, because that would make the woman look bad - while I have seen them in other threads calling men selfish disgusting pigs who even glanced at other women. What is this? Mind-blowing. I would suggest the very same to both men and women, and it boggles my mind how people would form such double-standards...crazy.

I feel very strongly about the topic because I have seen many good friends and family members be destroyed by such actions.

What do we think? Does it make sense for you not to tell a partner? Do you think it is ok to tell a female cheater that it's ok, while telling a male one that he's an irredeemable piece of trash?

especially if the woman was the cheater, they were very very unhappy in the marriage and felt completely trapped and the affair just kind of fell in their lap, often through work. In many of these cases the husband was kind of an abusive dick.

"I didn't mean to take my pants off and have sex with this random who paid me a bit of attention but, you know, my spouse is a kind of an arse so what else was I going to do?"

No. That's post-facto justification to make you feel better about your own selfish choices. If you care about your partner and the commitment you made to them then you wouldn't cheat on them. If you don't care enough about your partner to not cheat on them then at least have the basic common decency to split up with them before you get naked and involved with someone else's genitalia. And that goes whether you're a man or a woman. I've been in an abusive relationship and the absolute last thing on my mind was getting involved with someone else.

That is indeed the crux of it.

It’s also worth pointing out that in my case it was not a prolonged affair but a one night stand. I doubt I would feel so sanguine had there been repeated bare-faced lying.

To that level I do not disagree, everything has so many details in life, but no matter how we slice it, the act of getting into the driver’s seat and starting the engine is always a decision. Always. It is never something that is by accident, never something that happened through no fault of the driver. That's why i can't wrap my head around it. Happy mood, unhappy mood, good sleep, bad sleep, being drunk or not, someone practically throwing themselves in front of your car, we can say they matter, sure, for context, but at the end of the day, there is a choice, regardless of these. And that is the main thing, no reasoning or detail inspection can change that.

I guarantee you, you will struggle to find anyone who will see your point or base for comparison.

How reassuring it must be for you to be able to offer such guarantees that everybody sees the world as you do and nobody sees it as I do.

I wonder if the lack of stampede to your rallying call will give you pause for thought.

What rubs me the wrong way are the feeble excuses - calling it a "mistake" is an instant fail. Cheating is a choice

On a more constructive note, I wonder if the root of our disagreement is just that I am drawing a distinction between “mistake” and “accident” whereas you are not?

@moderate Taking the sentence structure and replacing words is not holding up any sort of a mirror, you must feel that.

Hey, I am a man who is trying to be realistic and objective, I am sure there is someone who would entertain your comparison. But I would still put a lot of money on an overwhelming majority of people not seeing it. Lack of stampede to my calling - haha, ok. If there were responses to this that support your comparison, you'd have a leg to stand on with this remark. The lack of any remark like that proves absolutely nothing. But happy to put it to the test, maybe a thread that focuses on getting people's votes?

"On a more constructive note, I wonder if the root of our disagreement is just that I am drawing a distinction between “mistake” and “accident” whereas you are not?"

I think the root is that you compare it (cheating) to something that is not 100% in your control, and there is no wiggle room in there, I am afraid.

And that is the point - Affair or ONS, in both cases there was a conscious choice. No matter how you rationalise either. I do acknowledge that there are a lot of factors, circumstances, but the base of it is always a choice. That is just how it is. Not my truth. It's objectivity. It's like stating humans need oxygen. That is the base line. We can have long discussions on someone with XYZ illness needing a higher amount, or a smaller person needing less than a bigger one, etc.. but the base line does not change, it is objectively true.

I pity your need to turn this into a popularity contest.

I have drawn your attention to the distinction between “accident” and “mistake”. Take it or leave it.

Fare well.

Popularity contest? no. To prove that your view is so unrealistic, it hurts - yes.
Well, you can pity me for that, I guess.
Accident and mistake are different, yes. Noted. Thanks. NEITHER OF WHICH constitutes the CHOICE to cheat. Maybe bring in a third one too, that has nothing to do with reality? Maybe "an unfortunate oopsie".

Farewell!

I agree it is always a choice.

I didn’t see the original affair thread but I completely agree that a cheating partner (male or female) should admit it. Then the cheatee can reassess the relationship they committed to.

In fact, what I actually think should happen ( but rarely does) is that if one of a couple is so overwhelmed by an attraction that they are contemplating straying, they should say to their partner in advance:
“I’m attracted to X and think they are to me… this has an impact on our relationship and I think we should discuss it before anything happens .”

I have been there, with ex DH (who I think strayed, but I still don’t know for sure as he gave differing evasive answers). It’s the gaslighting, evasion, disruption to family life, inconsistencies, not sharing your day that honestly messes with your sanity. When you are trying to juggle work and children’s schedules it’s hard enough without having weird inconsistencies consuming your headspace. It’s hard to explain but I used to say it was like living in a constantly wobbling, shifting, morphing universe, it’s like the ground and landscape is distorted - not knowing which way is up, not having a solid foundation.

It’s so hard to explain to people who haven’t experienced it, but in your relationship with your partner, you’ve discussed all the major topics, politics, world events, parenting etc. What you then do on a daily basis is discuss your working day, what you heard or radio 4 or a cute dog you saw on your way home. To leave out something huge (like you met and are building a significant attraction to someone else) is a huge betrayal.

Openness and trust are integral to any family relationship. This is the foundation. Once you start running a parallel secret emotional or physical life then you undermine that foundation. It’s belittling and disempowering for the other person to remove their right to make informed choices about their own life. This applies to a ONS and a longer infidelity as the cheatee is investing in and prioritising a relationship which is a lie.

If someone decides to stay after an affair, that’s their decision requiring remorse and full knowledge of the facts. Depriving someone of the truth actually always mystifies me, why is it? Maybe so the cheater can avoid consequences, keep their options open, have their cake and eat it, try to check if that bit of grass is greener ?

Even having been through it ( I think) I still don’t get it. You don’t want me and our family life and the pets? Fine - ok then, off you trot! But why try to preserve it, maintain the status quo, send loving birthday/ valentine’s cards whilst pursuing something secret in parallel. It’s just weird..

Very well said, @leopardandspots . And sorry you had to experience it with your exH

I’ve been a married woman, (divorced and then widowed), for a great number of years.

Life isn’t always simple, and couples can hurt each other in many ways apart from infidelity.

I’d never judge people. I’ve not walked a mile in their shoes. 🤷‍♀️

Isn’t this just a TAAT? If you don’t want to cheat, then don’t. I cannot get too bent out of shape about how someone else on the internet lives their life.

It is everyone's private business what they choose to do on this front, that much is true. It's not about spiralling out about cheating. But it is astounding when people are encouraging other people to do the morally wrong thing, to flat-out lie and trick others. That is the shocking part.

Very true. But it's not about who's "bad" or "better" than others, nor about walking in anyone's shoes.. The point was that encouraging others to hide infidelity is just objectively wrong.

While I'm generally with you that cheating and then lying about it absolutely isn't the way I'd conduct myself and is behaviour that I would struggle to tolerate in any partner of mine, I don't agree that it's objectively wrong. It's subjective, and depends on an awful lot of circumstance.

Well, on a technical level, as long as someone is getting hurt or lied to, it is objectively wrong @HowardTJMoon . That's just the reality of it, without any emotions.

I agree that it's a decision an individual makes, but circumstances can lead to making wrong choices.

It's not always black and white.
There's a lot more to it, although for many people, they can't imagine a situation where they would cheat.

We don't disagree on that front @SandyY2K. Yes, circumstances vary, in multitudes of ways... But nobody debated that, either. All that is being said here is that regardless of all the different circumstances, at the very base of everything, it always comes down to the choice the person makes. Always. No exception. Two cheaters can have the most different circumstances ever, but they both had the point where they had to decide whether to cheat or not. Circumstances are not black and white, but the decision is always yer or no.

In simplistic terms, yes...it can be a yes or no decision, just like the circumstances that can lead someone to cheat.

If you consistently neglect or abuse your partner, that's a choice you make. As a result of those actions, they can be left broken, hurt, unloved and so much more, leaving them in a vulnerable state and if the situation arises... they are likely to cheat.

The focus shouldn't just be on the act of cheating, but the state of the relationship and both parties need to take responsibility for that.

No-no, let's be real. It is ALWAYS a yes/no question. Always. Let's take your specific example of being neglected or abused, being left broken, hurt, unloved. Let's take a person like that. If the partner is treating someone poorly, does that give any kind of an excuse? If someone steals my bag, will that give me the right to steal someone else's things? Because I have been hurt prior to it, will I get more sympathy? No. And let's not kid ourselves. There is never a situation where someone has absolutely no choice but to cheat.. Such scenario does not exist. If that relationship is so dead and the partner is so bad, exit the relationship and enjoy living freely...

If my partner had a fling but it was a discreet, brief hiccup in an otherwise happy relationship I would genuinely prefer not to know. I would rather continue my peaceful, trusting coexistence and not have my world turned upside down and not feel the heartbreak that a confession would cause! So, yes, if they made a mistake/ had a lapse in judgement and were able to end it without me suspecting anything I'd prefer it to stay that way.

Totally within your right to feel this way @AltitudeCheck

I can’t get so wound up about other peoples relationships. I think, I wouldn’t want to be with anyone else I just can’t imagine it, but if I did want to I still wouldn’t, I can’t imagine there being someone so amazing that they’re worth trashing my family for. However if someone did it, me and my husband agree you should lie all the way! It’s not worth devastating your other half and breaking kids homes up.

Match made in heaven, then.

I agree that it's a decision an individual makes, but circumstances can lead to making wrong choices.

It is futile to engage Exhaust on this point, Sandy.

If he stopped for a moment to consider why a person is said to MAKE a mistake, as one MAKES a choice, rather than having a mistake MADE TO them, or passively HAVING an accident, he might understand the mistake he himself had made here:

calling it a "mistake" is an instant fail. Cheating is a choice

Alas, he is too busy trying arguing with straw men to stop for that moment.

I can only type this down so many times - nobody questions the different circumstances that lead to cheating. But to rationalise any cheater's decision to cheat to anything but a personal choice they made is pointless. But I am really running out of ways to express this. You keep coming back repeating "oh but there are so many things to consider why someone ends up cheating", - I am not debating that, I am not questioning that, it is very much true - yes, but christ, the decision is always theirs to cross that line. If you fail to understand that, you are naive, I am sorry. If someone walks up to a person and punches them in the face, there are so many things that could have lead for them to decide to do so - Was the person fired from work? Was he drinking? Did someone steal their wallet that day? Did he step in dog poo? Did his wife announce that she initiated divorce? Did he lose a parent? All of these could have lead the person to be aggressive to a random person. And that's assault. Whether any of the above list happened or not is irrelevant for the assaulted person, or the rest of the world. It was this person's choice to go ahead and punch someone on the face. He could have chosen to not do it because it's wrong, and he's a mature adult where he can overcome caveman feelings. It was his choice and his alone.
I am running out of examples, really.

By the way, 50 out of 54 people so far agree with me that comparing cheating to driving makes zero sense @moderate , so much for your side of the debate. My goal was to find out whether I am so blind that I don't see it, as I am always happy to learn. But seems like no.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/amibeingunreasonable/5493795-i-cant-see-how-cheating-can-be-compared-to-driving?reply=150666281