Morally dubious suggestions regarding cheating

[exhaustDAD]

I have been thinking a lot about a thread and all the comments in it from the last few days - been deleted since. A woman shared her story of having an affair, long story short, she gave herself the excuse that it was just to break the boredom in her life, the dull routine of raising kids and a long-standing relationship. She concluded it all by saying that she would not tell her husband about her long affair. The comments shocked me. While the vast majority was on the same page I find myself on in a situation like this, there were some that absolutely shocked me to my core. I believe when you cheat, the damage is done, it cannot be reversed, but the grownup thing - the right thing - to do is to at least own up to what you've done, and tell your partner. That way, even though it is painful, the partner doesn't have to live a lie, and they can decide what they would want going forward, giving them some agency in the relationship they signed up for. That's what I believe in. I think it is despicable to just cosy back into your old life, you internally forgive yourself, how convenient, and make your partner live a lie, thinking they have a faithful partner. The thought of potentially living an entire life like this is such a disrespectful thing. I care very little for excuses like "it was a mistake" - cheating is ALWAYS a choice. Nobody is forcing anyone to cheat. Especially long-lasting affairs, please, that's as far from a mistake as it can be.

Anyway.. There were comments that urged the woman not to tell her husband, because it would just invite drama, and distrust going forward. And why would anyone want to to do that? First of all - excuse me?! Going forward? Second - How could anyone look in the mirror and sleep well doing something like this? Just be so self-absorbed that you think it's ok to lie for ever about something like this, disrespecting the partner they supposedly love? Like petty children trying to get away with a stain on the carpet. We are adults, civilised, grownups... Or at least, we should be. The argument of "oh they will be devastated" will never stand for me. It might be painful, but at least it is the truth. And don't know about you, I'd rather live in the truth than a lie that I have no say in. (Those who said they would rather not know if their partner cheated are also beyond my comprehension.. wow)

What really got me was this - I have seen a username or two, who were very fact of the matter, casually supported not telling the husband, because that would make the woman look bad - while I have seen them in other threads calling men selfish disgusting pigs who even glanced at other women. What is this? Mind-blowing. I would suggest the very same to both men and women, and it boggles my mind how people would form such double-standards...crazy.

I feel very strongly about the topic because I have seen many good friends and family members be destroyed by such actions.

What do we think? Does it make sense for you not to tell a partner? Do you think it is ok to tell a female cheater that it's ok, while telling a male one that he's an irredeemable piece of trash?

I think it's really important to deal with the fact that people can think very strongly different things from you, and not let it get you into a rage. Sex and love are so complicated, and people come at them from such different angles and with such different baggage - there's no point getting so offended by diverse values and behaviours. Or by discussion on a discussion forum.

Wouldn't you?

Its like asking why I'd be more likely to tell the police if my friend committed a murder vs. doing 90 down the motorway. Both are bad, but one is significantly worse than the other

No, it’s like going 75 down a motorway vs going 90 down a motorway. I wouldn’t expect a friend to divulge either.

I didn't see the thread, but it's really hard to say whether there's a double standard and whether that double standard is based on the sexes of the people involved without a real example, because there are so many variables.

But if I were trying to give objective, practical advice to Lou, who has cheated once and deeply regrets it and is terrified of losing their spouse who abhors cheating, I might give different advice than I would to Sam, who strongly suspects that their spouse has cheated and is incredibly anxious to find out for sure. It's in Lou's best interests to keep the secret (maybe - there's also the argument that Lou's spouse may find out anyway and it would have been better to tell) and in Sam's best interests to find out the real truth - even if it's the exact same situation as Lou and Sam are married to each other. Your natural sympathy starts with the person who has asked for your advice; unless and until they piss you off, you are trying to solve THEIR problem. Hence different and maybe contradictory advice for two different people involved in a similar situation, or even the same situation in different ways.

While I do understand that everyone has different morals, some would cheat, some wouldn't, some could forgive, some could never... All that is one thing, it is fairly straight-forward. What rubs me the wrong way are the feeble excuses - calling it a "mistake" is an instant fail. Cheating is a choice, that is just how it is, not my opinion. Nobody forces anyone. It is a conscious choice. You can say your hormones got the better of you, but again, we are civilised, mature adults, we should be able to be in control, we are not cavemen or monkeys. The other one is different, but equally bad; Oh, I can't tell the partner that was cheated on because it would devastate them - Please, if you care so much about how your partner feels, you wouldn't have betrayed the relationship and the rules of the relationship you both agreed on. Your own selfish needs and urges were more important than your love and respect. The third one is equally bad - Not going to tell, because it would change our lives (separation, divorce, etc). Well, that is called real life - where actions have consequences. It is just too inconvenient, you don't want to ruffle up your cushy life, deal with the backlash of what you've done. How convenient that is? Why not just keep it to yourself, right? You will conveniently forgive yourself, and job's done.

You absolutely cannot ever rationalise it, because it is simply wrong and disrespectful to the partner. It is one of the worst forms of disrespect, because you take away his or her agency, their say if it is something they would like to continue, or forgive. No, you selfishly decide that it's "better" for everyone, but to be honest, it shouldn't be a surprise, after you selfishly went after your urges behind your partner's back. So yes, it is a moral issue. I am not saying a cheater cannot be a nice person, but a nice, good person owns up to their mistakes. Even if the point is not being nice or good, you owe it to your partner, because everyone deserves to know the person they choose to share their lives with. That is just baseline decency.

"I’m sure deep down this is better for my family unit that tearing my family to shreds."

That's the corkscrew egocentric self-serving rationalisation of every cheater. They actually manage to convince themselves that cheating is GOOD for their partner and family. How heroic!

It is utterly disrespectful to your H to cheat on him. By cheating and lying, you take away his fundamental right to make decisions about his own body. Would he want to have sex with you if he knew you were fucking another guy? Probably not. That means you're breaching sexual consent EVERY time you have sex with your H.

By cheating and lying, you also take away your H's fundamental right to make decisions about his own life. Would he want to continue working towards the common goal of your marriage if he knew you were screwing another guy and that you have "very strong feelings for each other"? I doubt it. And THAT is why you don't tell him - because it would affect YOUR life negatively. There would be upheaval, and recriminations, you'd have to deal with his anguish and pain, he might go for divorce, and then the outside world would know about your grubby shenanigans.

You've positioned yourself as a hero in your head but really, you're deeply selfish, lack self-control, and have no qualms about mercilessly taking your H for a ride.

@VimesandhisCardboardBoots

I think basically it boils down to whether an act can be morally wrong if it has no negative consequences for anyone else.

I think there are choices one can make that can have negative consequences on oneself and are as a consequence the wrong thing to do regardless of their impact on others (I'm deliberately not using the term "moral" here as that can mean subtly different things to different people).

The act of having sex with someone who isn't your partner isn't in itself wrong. Plenty of single people do that every day without any judgement whatsoever. Hell, plenty of people in open relationships do it too. What makes it wrong are the consequences of the action. It only becomes wrong if it will hurt your partner.

The crucial difference between having sex with a random if you're single/non-exclusive and cheating on your partner is that in the latter you have presumably made a prior commitment not to have sex with someone else. It's the breaking of that commitment to someone you purport to care about that makes it the wrong thing to do. Whether or not your partner ever finds out doesn't change the fact that you chose to break that commitment for selfish reasons. If you then go on to compound that breach by lying about it then what does that say about your character? You'd be both a cheat and a liar. If I thought that about myself I'd not be able to look at my face in the mirror without cringing.

It's an internal vs external validation thing. I do the right thing because I don't want to see myself as someone who does the wrong thing. You do the right thing because you don't want others to see you as someone who does the wrong thing. The end result might be the same but the motivation is very different.

I find the lack of guilty feeling from some completely alien to me.
How anyone can do something they know is wrong without guilt is a concept I can't and dont want to understand.
Saying it only counts if your partner finds out because it will hurt them. That in my opinion nullifies your wedding vows or shows a lack of understanding of them which is essentiallythe same thing. To be faithful is on you not on the possibility of being caught.
Honestly. If your the type of person who can cheat without feeling guilt and not just fear of being caught. I hope I never have the misfortune of meeting you.

I did know someone like that. We had a big group of friends. One lady in the group was just flirty all the time. Her husband wasn't overly social so often didn't come to games nights or out with us all.
One night this lady asked me and my wife for a lift to a work party that was going on. I was designated driver so no problem. We drove her into town and dropped her off. I watched her walk past the bar she said she was going to and straight into the hotel where a man was waiting for her. Not her husband. I was furious that i'd been used to aid her affair. I drove straight to their house and told her husband who she thought had no clue. He was relieved. He suspected for a while but had no proof and didnt want to confront her as he knew she'd just deny so he felt trapped.

I was conflicted over my part in ending their marriage. But happy I had done the right thing.

I found out later on that she was sorry she got caught but had absolutly zero cares about anything else. Her narcissistic personality eventually drove everyone away and still she can't see how her being completely alone is her own doing. No friends beyond work colleagues and no long term partners. The last time I saw her she actually blamed me for ending her marriage and embarrassing her to her family. Absolutly no remorse or acknowledgement over her own actions. In her mind if he hadn't of found out she would still be happily married. The whole blame was on me. We also found out very soon after she was caught another person we knew had been sleeping with her in her and her husband bed. I haven't seen him at all for years. As again there was no guilt there or shame just their own highly selfish acts.
That lady actually thought that running through a list of all the people she'd slept with while married would make her husband realise that she'd been doing it far longer than he suspected and was happy during that time so maybe it was just what she needed and he could accept that.

Totally agree the double standards here are pretty mind blowing. Everyone jumps to conclusions immediately and any nuances are usually ignored. Sometime ago under a different name I posted about a male friend whose wife had an affair an he was devastated. People accused me of being his OW - quite funny as he was actually my brother and I was trying not to be too outing. They also assumed he must be a total bastard doing sod all around the house and have driven her to the affair. Utter bollox! But that’s the world of judgmental mumsnet!

And if I saw a fifty pound note fall out of anyone's pocket. Who they are or how much money they have isnt a consideration. I would always pick it up and give it back. And I have been in that situation more than once. I work with some legends in music and the amount of stuff that falls from pockets on stage or is left behind. I've found wallets, cash, phones, jewelry. All sorts and have always without hesitation given it back. I've driven to Hotels to hand it back after events. And sometimes that hasn't been easy when there are crowds of fans in the lobby.

Hmm… by your “not a mistake” logic, if someone runs out in front of your car and you hit them, that’s not an accident because you chose to get into the driver’s seat.

Having said that, I agree that people who tell themselves they’re keeping it secret for the benefit of their partner are usually self-serving.

"But humans fuck up, and I'm human, so I can believe in a world where I have cheated. And in that world I'm still going to to take the path that hurts DP least. In most cases that's going to mean telling her, but it's possible it might not."

That is also a cheater's rationalisation. You don't have the right to make decisions for your DP. It's patronising and infantilising. DP is a compos mentis autonomous adult who has the right to know what kind of person she is with, that he is capable of doing things that are deeply harmful to her. She can then decide whether she can handle that or whether she'd feel so unsafe that she wants to end the relationship. By not telling her, you deny her the right to free will. You're also manipulating her and preventing her from making informed decisions about the direction of her own life.

That's not loving or caring for your DP. And deep down, if you're honest with yourself, your thinking here is not about her, it's about avoiding the furor and upset to YOUR life - and facing the shame of having been unable to control yourself - that comes with discovery/disclosure.

Also, a very common feature in infidelity stories is that the cheater will twist, wriggle, gaslight, lie lie lie lie lie lie, and trickle truth, anything to avoid telling their betrayed spouse what is really going on. It can go on for years. It exponentially compounds the distress of the betrayed spouse, causing many to develop PTSD. Many many betrayed spouses say that the LYING after discovery is a thousand times more damaging than the infidelity itself. This is a ubiquitous refrain in infidelity sites. It's the LYING.

By lying to your DP about something you did that would hurt her, you break the trust on which her love for you is based. You seem to be fine with that, but it's dishonourable and not respectable.

And ultimately, there would be a much better chance of me forgiving and regaining respect and trust for my partner if he told me about cheating when HE DIDN'T HAVE TO. Not so if I had to find out from other sources. I daresay your DP would be the same, but in any case, she would deserve to know.

"That lady actually thought that running through a list of all the people she'd slept with while married would make her husband realise that she'd been doing it far longer than he suspected and was happy during that time so maybe it was just what she needed and he could accept that."

The self-delusion of cheaters is incredible.

I don't know @moderate , but I wouldn't be brave enough to draw parallel between actual accidents and cheating..
"Hmm… by your “not a mistake” logic, if someone runs out in front of your car and you hit them, that’s not an accident because you chose to get into the driver’s seat."
The accident with the car still happened due to factors beyond your control - someone running in front of you. Cheating is you DECIDING to cheat. Not "oopsies, I fell naked with my genitals out straight onto someone else's naked body". Based on your analogy it's your fault for being cheated on, when you decide to get into a relationship, as in - the driver's seat. just no.

I mean, I’m largely playing Devil’s Advocate, but everyone knows they make worse decisions when they’ve been drinking, so you could say the decision that brought about a drunken fumble was the decision to drink, yet we accepted the risk.

Similarly, everybody knows there is a non-zero chance that someone might run out in front of you if you choose to drive, yet we accept the risk.

I just think things are rarely black and white.

I get the devil's advocate side, that is always a good thing in a discussion, but as far as comparisons go, they only work when you compare like-for-like. The framework of driving will never have an overlap with cheating. Because driving will always involve a gazillion different factors outside your own control, while cheating always boils down to you deciding to go for it. That's just you, and only you. No pedestrians, no weather conditions, no unexpected turns or a deer jumping in front of the car, nothing else. The two systems are just not even remotely close to one another.

We disagree about the multivariate nature of a relationship. You are fortunate to be able to maintain the view you have. Long may it continue.

amen to that.
We agree that relationships have multiple factors, but we were focussing on cheating exclusively here. Nothing else.
I will continue to take ownership of my own actions, and continue believing that me potentially cheating is on me, and nobody else.

We all must take ownership of our actions. However, as someone who has been cheated on, I will continue to believe that my DP’s mistake did not happen in a vacuum.

Sorry it has happened to you @moderate . But I don't understand your argument. What are you saying? That your DP cheating is not their fault?

I didn’t read the OP in full or see that thread, but it depends, doesn’t it? If a woman is financially dependent and has young kids, then what use is owning up to the affair and blowing up her family if she has ended the affair and wants to move on from it?

Sometimes you have to think practically, not just morally.

Because what you are saying with that @Crushed23 is that you are with the partner for financial gains only, which is again, yikes.. It is despicable to have someone live a lie just because it's more cosy of a solution for you. Nothing but self-entitlement, I am afraid. The other person has a right to know, and choose if the relationship can go on like that. You know, consent. That is sort of a big thing.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/in-a-vacuum

This entry gives five good examples of the idiom.

In an ideal world, yeah, but we don’t live in an ideal world. Of course people stay in marriages for financial comfort, convenience, seeing their kids every day, etc. Where do you live? Under a rock?

Of course it does. Does it make it good and acceptable? No. Murder happens every day. Will not make it ok.
Would you be happy if your son (if you don't have one, imagine you do) was cheated on, and the wife is just staying with him for his money? I have a feeling I know the answer.