What constitutes an emotional affair rather than a friendship?

[Anon1234567891]

So I have been concerned with my DH friendship with a female work colleague/friend. I posted about it on the cinema thread and I know almost everyone thought there was something going on. He eventually showed me his messages to her after I confronted him but went through them very quickly. I had seen some messages on his work phone, a couple of which were inappropriate but the rest were friendly/banter.
I have now seen messages on his personal phone a bit closer, there is nothing obviously romantic but maybe he could have deleted things before I saw them, but these are some examples :-
He messaged her just before midnight on New Year’s Eve, wishing her happy new year but also trying to arrange a cinema meet up while we were out as a family.
He has regularly messaged her while we are on holiday or a family day out, on one occasion trying to arrange a meet up when we got back to cheer her up. He said this is what friends do but I don’t know why he needs to message her when we are supposed to be having a nice time as a family and having family time.
Said he would miss her when she went on holiday and she could always stay.
Looked out for her when his exercise class was cancelled at the same place as hers so she could take him to the pub but she wasn’t there. She said he should take me out to pave the way for them to go out later in the month.
There are other things similar to this but it seems that he is the one that is instigating a lot of the conversations and going out when he made out to me it was her. He also wasn’t suggesting we go out and do anything together during this time which obviously isn’t good and I didn’t feel like a priority to him.

We are now at a bit of a stalemate as he says he hasn’t done anything wrong which technically he hasn’t but that’s a matter of opinion. How he behaved over this hasn’t been good not showing me his phone, avoiding me seeing his pin, being angry and defensive so I don’t know.

Op,

In the maths world, algorithms are sorted by different named systems, Bubble Sort, Quick Sort, Heap Sort etc, you get the gist.

Your mind is just sorting at the moment, putting everthing in order for a clearer picture.

You are not wrong, your systems are working overtime, analysing and exhausting you.
He did this to you, but it's a process that everyone goes through, from what I can see you are a perfectly logical woman who is coming to the conclusion that you know right from wrong.

It will not alter history but have faith in yourself, I hope you regain your strength.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5428525-am-i-wrong-to-be-bothered-by-dh-going-to-cinema-with-female-colleague

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5460212-dh-cinema-female-colleague-update-messages

These are the two previous threads about her H and the OW which many of us are referring to. It gives much more context to all of this.

OP have you contacted this woman directly? How certain are you that she knows you are together (with your DH)

Now I’ve seen your other posts this is 100% more than an emotional affair. He is having a full on affair. He wouldn’t show you his phone - there’s your answer.

I message blokes a lot - I have lots of male friends. We joke and send lots of texts, and chat. If I want to meet up with them I would always invite my husband. I wouldn’t sneak around trying to meet them alone. Usually he doesn’t want to come, mainly because he thinks we will talk about work all the time (and in fairness, he is right).

She is well aware of me and our family, I have met her. We even went to an exercise class together for a little bit, all while I didn’t know all this messaging was going on.
Do you think he didn’t want me to see his phone as I would see the extent of the messaging as haven’t seen any more inappropriate messages?

There is no other reason why he would hide it.

Can you have a look when he’s in bed / busy? It’s the only way you will know. Check photos, messages and emails. If it’s an iPhone it will have a hidden folder for photos that only opens with Face ID.

If he’s really got nothing to hide you will find nothing. Be warned though - you need to decide what you’ll do if you find more. I found photos that proved my ExH was having an affair and he still tried to deny it.

You don't need to find anything else OP. What you already know is enough, You are allowed to ask for respect in your relationship. He's not taking you seriously because he knows you're not going to do anything about it.

You need to find your anger and take action. It doesn't matter if he says they're just friends, it doesn't matter if he denies he's doing anything, all that matters is how you feel about it and the fact that he doesn't care.

It tells you everything. What are you waiting for?

OP if you took out the gender in this situation, it appears from your responses that it's a best mate situation since there's no smoking gun in any of these texts. As well you've interacted with them, and determined no insinuations of an emotional relationship. When talk about a third person in the relationship, that could either be a male or female when it comes to a close friend which is a chance to get out of daily life. You are in a marriage, with children, and spouses enjoy time out of that family environment, whether it's a husband or wife. To forbid that option will make it worse. Simply ask for a compromise, as you would expect the same respect if you were put in his place. Without the economic dynamics, I assume he's the breadwinner and you're a SAHM, so you can't imagine the pressure he's under and found a release to hang out with a coworker who he can share the stresses of work and just breathe a little. Again, look for that compromise and be honest with him about what you want and ask him what HE wants. Marriage is a partnership, for better or worse, and if it was easy everyone would be doing it for decades.

@NumbersGuyI highly doubt he’d be talking to a male friend about bed style seats at their cinema ‘date’ and reminding his male friend to wear underwear this time. But this is the problem when op’s post the same issue under numerous different threads .

Oh OP, im mega chill about male/ female friendships but absolutely none of this is ok. Please start thinking about how YOU deserve to be treated and what YOU want and need from a partnership. I do remember your original thread, I hope you see that you are worth so much more than being treated like this.

I think there are 2 rules

1. would I be ok with this happening the other way around
2. would I be ok to show my DH.

If the answer to either of those is NO then it’s crossed a line.

I do say love you to lots of friends. DH thinks it’s a bit odd. But knows it’s my normal. I’d find it odd if DH said love you to his friends because that’s out of the ordinary for him.

@TheThingOnTheIce I suppose I just wanted to see if people thought that the frequency and timing of messages when on holiday with us was unusual without the other stuff. But I suppose it’s this combined with the other stuff that makes the difference.

Honestly op I wasn’t having a go . I really feel for you. Took me far too long to get out of my last relationship as I wanted solid proof so I know what you’re going through.

@Anon1234567891I’d really advise taking your time and writing everything that has happened including the hidden bank account etc into ChatGPT. It really helped me. Didn’t tell me anything I didn’t already know but it put into a sensible order unlike my jumbled up gaslit brain .

I remember your thread. Clearly an emotional affair.

You don’t really have to “prove your point” in any way. You can just say this relationship makes you uncomfortable and you won’t stay married to him if he chooses her over you. You can leave because you are unhappy.

Write it all down, then reread it. What would you say to a friend telling you that?

as for affair or friend. A friend is a friend to the whole family, everyone knows them.. There’s no secrets, my OH would say I’m going to …with …. . End of conversation. They do things with all of you at times. Also a friend does not disturb your family time or family holiday.

this is all secrets and lies so to me that’s an affair.

I’ve not read your previous thread so I am going by just this.

@OneNewEagle spoke to him about it again today. He says it’s just the odd message when we’ve been on holiday etc and it’s true it’s not usually loads back and forth, although there was one back and forth over an hour while we were out for a meal asking her to choose his pudding and various other stuff. Do friends message like this when they are supposed to be with their family? Even messaging about if they might bump into each other at the supermarket! I just don’t know what’s normal or not.

None of this is normal OP. Every single person that has posted is saying this to you. What more do you need?

Friends and work colleagues don’t message like that. I wouldn’t text my friend Pam and ask her what I should have for pudding. She’d be like wtf. A message to say happy new year on a work group chat is fine. I wouldn’t send one to individual work colleagues. I wouldn’t go to the cinema with my work colleagues as they have dp and families they’d go with. Neither of us would message friends or colleagues whilst on holiday unless there was a problem. We both have friends of both sexes. Neither would go and sit in a cinema with them alone. It’s not normal I’d say. Sorry. If he’s not having an affair, he wants one would me my guess.

You absolutely know this is not normal, otherwise you wouldn't be posting about it.

And you're right

I'm so sorry @Anon1234567891
but your husband is being unfaithful to you, blatantly and in plain sight.

@Anon1234567891 I think asking on MN you will get a high proportion assuming he is cheating. Don’t let that completely colour your view. What does your gut say?

I’ve read your previous posts too and my main takeaway is your relationship and communication needs work. You are scared to bring things up with him, instead choosing to contact his colleagues about your relationship problems. His behaviour is sneaky, secretive and defensive which all point to guilt. But saying that the evidence you have doesn’t show an affair and if he’s now willing to be open with you about their communication and agrees to reduce out of work contact and no more one on one ‘dates’ then I would start working on your communication together and reconnecting. But trust your gut. If something continues to feel wrong — it is.

I think you need to try to stop analysing whether this is an emotional affair or what other people find acceptable (it is completely understandable that you're doing this though). He's clearly hurting you and making you miserable. If you imagine all the time you've spent thinking about this, I bet he has not even spent a tenth of that time thinking of you/your marriage and probably quite a lot of his time instead thinking about or spending time with or messaging her.

I suggest you find some support irl (a trusted friend or counselling) to work out whether you want to end the marriage or not. It's not great for your self respect and dignity to carry on putting up with this and in endless exhausting cycles of wondering and analysing. But the options aren't simply end it or put up with it, you could ask if he'd go to relationship counselling. (Apologies if you have asked him and I missed it).

The pudding thing is ridiculous and adolescent.

He is doing something wrong. He is prioritising his relationship with her over his family and time with his family.

My best mate is a man. I don't ever encroach on his family time. I don't text him on holidays or late in the evenings. I always check on his wife and kids. When he's had an issue and he told me something his wife didn't know the first thing I told him was to tell his wife because I'd be pissed at the lie by ommison more then the issue itself. We talk about big life things and I've been present every milestone on his life but never to the detriment of his wife or kid. When were out together and he got bad news. I called his wife and told her what was happening. I then did the 3 hour round trip to take him home because he wasn't fit to travel alone. I'm his friend but I'm a friend of the family as well. I'd be devastated if I caused friction in his marriage.

@Anon1234567891

I've followed all your threads. I so sorry that he's treated you this way. But nothing you have said has ever changed my mind about what I thought when I read your first OP. He's not putting you first. Still.

Please look at this picture once it posts. It's not a sensitive photo, but speaks straight to the heart. I wish I'd sent this the first time.