Found condoms and wet wipes in DH's work/ travel bag (yes another one of these!)

[Ohtheregoesgravity]

I've read many similar threads on here, maybe adding another will help develop a data pool for trend analysis or FAQs for other Mumsnetters (ha!) but really, I just need to recount my experience and maybe get some advice specific to my circumstances - even though it's on a common topic.

Several condoms dated 2029, together with individually wrapped wet wipes multi pack - many of which are open - found in DH travel/ work backpack. No open or used condoms, just the wipes. Been in couples' therapy for 2 years, been intimate twice or thrice in that time so I probably deserve it if he's cheating. I just thought he was still in the 'we are working on it' headspace. I was looking for pens or pencils for DS1 (6) homework last night (just moved house - no idea where the pens are yet) not looking for trouble. So I behaved calmly (I'm generally very expressive and emotional)and took out a sample of both on the floor by his bed, where I thought it would be obvious to him I had found them. I know he found them as I was flossing with my back turned as I hear me swearing and him jumping up to move them (DS1 and DS2 (3) were in their beds). The paraphernalia wasn't there when I turned and there has been no mention of it (not how I expected it to play out but determined not to be super emotional, which is what he would expect, and use to deflect from the problem at hand)

A few other things have my Spidey senses going. DH has been hugely and noticeably protective of his phone recently. He's always on it, won't show me me anything on his screen if he is looking at something and commenting on it, would rather send it to me (although he always would turn the screen to show me in the past). It never leaves his sight, it was on a charger close to me one night, next to the night stand with my water on it, I reached to get my water and he was barely awake and managed to sense, wake up and grab the phone as I reached my glass. He was never a fan of handing over his phone to DS to watch something as a distraction if we'd gotten desperate for him to sit still ( I am always happy to, unless I'm out of charge). Now, it is the only scenario where he would sooner make a scene (usually hates this) than hand it over.

He works in the office more, and goes for more conferences (locally but long days or the odd overnight) social meals and drinks after work. I thought it was due to his new job, and my job is the same. The odder thing is how many short notice travel ones he now has, they weren't mentioned to me as an initial criterion for the role.

He's been very amenable to sleeping in the guest bedroom in the last few months too. DCs have been waking up a lot at night and coming into our bed. In fact he's most recently been insisting that they start the night in bed with me while he sleeps in the guest room, citing 'we would all get better sleep'. Which we actually have.

I should ask him outright, about the condoms. Maybe tonight after the kids are down (we may not get a chance in the morning, getting kids ready, and DH is working from the office all day). But he may have gotten rid of the evidence, and he has been known to lie and gaslight in the past to get out of things.

What would you think and do? If he has been cheating, the marriage becomes irreparable, in my view - couples' therapy be damned.

Nope. That's not the choice, you are presenting a false argument.

If a couple are not having sex there are four options for the partner who is unhappy - they talk to their spouse about it maybe try counselling or try to come to an arrangement for the amount of sex they are both happy with, they tell their partner they plan to fuck other people, they ask their partner to open the marriage, they leave.

As you are aware there are dozens of reasons not to want to have sex and only one to cheat - because you want to.

The boundary is "no fucking around" not "unless i really really want to and "insert reasons". Only scumbags break the boundary.

So, those are the options available to normal, decent, ethical people.

The final option is to become a scumbag, abusive, lying, untrustworthy piece of shit whose character will forever be judged. The knowledge of the abusive behaviour will follow you from fuck to fuck and relationship to relationship.

But you already know this :)

@CosyShark "But you can’t withdraw it without consequence and still claim the moral high ground"

I just cannot get onboard with this viewpoint.

Well, this person is saying a human being does not have autonomy over their body and cannot say no to sex without their husband/wife then being morally righteous if they then abuse them by cheating instead of treating them like a human being and making an ethical choice.

The reason you cannot get onboard with this viewpoint is that you do not view women as a wife appliance with a set of holes that must be functional and available or accept being abused as the consequence, which is what they are claiming.

You have an understanding of ethics and morality, you understand that abusing your partner is always wrong even if they cannot or do not wish to have sex with you any longer and that there are always other choices than abusing someone.

Of course, they also understand it is morally and ethically wrong to cheat, but they are trying to find an escape clause.

Imaginging being such a filthy, vile misogynist you equate bodily autonomy "saying no to sex" with punching someone.

You need therapy. Seriously.

You’ve been in couples therapy and there is hardly any intimacy in your marriage. It’s hardly surprising that one of you would end up having an affair. It’s sad. But probably time to let go. Or get another couple therapist. This one isn’t helping.

Start making yourself a nest egg financially, and prepared to ask him to go.

Do you jointly own on your own home? Sometimes that alone can keep couples together, for a few years anyway - As the fallout from a separation when your own property is so huge.
I'm very sorry this has happened to you. Awful x

Depends on your point of view. However, in my experience, unless there are health reasons, sex is very much an important part of life, and not everyone chooses to live like a celibate.

You need to think seriously about ending the marriage as to be honest, it sounds like it was already all but over when you found the condoms. You’ve given two years to therapy to try and fix things and that’s admirable. It’s hard to imagine a different life when you’ve been with someone a long time. But both of you are unhappy and long term this will damage your children.

For every adult that feels damaged by their parent’s divorce, there’s another one that is damaged by parents staying together when they should have separated. I’m in the latter camp and really don’t thank my parents for staying together. I’m in my late 40’s now and still feel affected by it.

You’re never going to get the truth from him. The fact he can blatantly lie to your face and not even admit the truth when caught out is awful. He wants you to make the call to end things so you can be the bad guy. He is definitely cheating. I’d start getting your ducks in a row and end this marriage, don’t let it drag on and on. You will both be happier apart.

This sounds absolutely hellish. @Ohtheregoesgravity If your children remain around what you describe - here they will remember their childhood as a hellish time and unhappy time too.

Make the change. Do not get drawn in to playing detective. Big girl knickers on, head down and start playing smart. Solicitor (get one that gets good recommendations) and gather as much info about finances as you can.

@CosyShark it would be interesting to learn more about you and your circumstances and background for you to come to this conclusion Cheating when you have a healthy sex life is scummy, not when your spouse withdrew unilaterally.

would you be comfortable in at least confirming whether you are a man or woman? And whether you have cheated on someone in the past?

This sounds like something an abusive pos would say.

Of course it is abuse. And you are absolutely grotesque for trying (and failing to pretend otherwise.

I feel for you OP and agree with PPs that you’ll never get “the truth” and the marriage is effectively over.

One thing that always winds me up though on these threads is the narrative that the first 30 minutes of a solicitor’s consultation is free - and like @Dugongs suggests to take a list of targeted questions - yeah, that doesn’t happen in real life. No solicitor will give you any meaningful advice for free. The “free half hour” or initial discussion will be very generic and stuff you could easily find online yourself.

You won’t get individual/meaningful advice until to engage the services of a solicitor and pay for them!!

Chump Lady explains far better than I do how cheating is, of course, abuse.

But the reality is you all know this already. And only abusers and abuse apologists are trying to pretend otherwise.

But here you go, it's explained rationally to you, so now you can stop pretending you don't get it.

And now you know everyone always knows why you're defending abuse. You're an abuser yourself, you're an abuser apologist, you're as dumb as a bag of hammers, or you just enjoy causing harm and distress to others.

Those are the four options.

https://www.chumplady.com/rethinking-infidelity/
1. Infidelity results in physical harm.
People who cheat are making a unilateral decision about your health. (You think they used protection? You want to trust them on that?) Cheaters risk your physical long-term well-being for a side dish f*ck. For men — Herpes, HIV and Hepatitis C are no joke, but the risk to women is far more grave. Infertility from pelvic inflammatory disease, cervical cancer from strains of HPV. STDs can cause pregnancy risks, birth defects, and fetal mortality. What she doesn’t know can’t hurt her? Well, according to the <a class="break-all" href="https://www.cdc.gov/sti/?CDC<u>AAref</u>Val=www.cdc.gov/std/stats11/womenandinf.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Centers for Disease Control about 80%–90% of chlamydial infections and up to 80% of gonococcal infections in women are asymptomatic. Yep, she probably doesn’t know!
But you know when it’s a delightful time to find out your husband’s been cheating on you? At your next prenatal health screening when you’re pregnant with his child.

Ok, so this particular cheater may not have fucked his wife recently, so she probably doesn't have STDs. Maybe.

But since cheaters NEVER get caught the first time and are lying trashbags he's likely been doing it for years. So yeah, she still has to get tested.

2. Cheating is devastating

"Ask a chump if they would rather have been cheated on or thrown down a flight of stairs. Most would pick the stairs. (Admittedly, both choices suck.) There’s a reason primitive societies stone you for this. Betrayal hurts like a motherf*cker.
Think it’s no big deal? Tell that to the man who had to paternity test his children. Or the stay-at-home mom with small kids who finds her husband on Craigslist hook ups. Infidelity makes you vulnerable, distraught, and temporarily insane with pain."

Yup, cheating is a horrifying form of emotional torture and we see that every single time it is mentioned on this site. People are absolutely devastated, broken and their trust is destroyed. They never come out of being cheated on the same way they were when they went in.

And worst of all, the one person they are supposed to be able to trust and depend on is the filthy piece of shit who chose to abuse them. They keep wanting comfort from their own abuser. Now that's a total mind fuck.

3. It is emotionally abusive.
"There’s no cheating on someone without lying to them. Cheaters deny reality. They gaslight, and the worst among them project their sins on to their chump...They blame shift.

Absurd, but the damage is real. Someone abuses you and then tells you that you brought it on yourself. Classic....

Listen, a chump might be the crappiest, most sexless spouse there is, and living another day with them a toxic mistake. If you’re married to that person? Get out. Don’t cheat.

Cheating keeps you locked in the dysfunction and makes you a villain. Why would you choose that? If you beat the tar out of them with a leaded pipe, I wouldn’t give you a pass either."

4. Cheating is financially reckless.
"Just like cheaters make unilateral decisions about your health, they do it with your finances too. Spending marital assets on affairs, hotels, gifts, travel, secret cell phones. That’s your average cheater. "

https://www.chumplady.com/rethinking-infidelity/

There's plenty more on the article and on the site, and every pathetic abusive excuse is covered.

As she says "We need to stop excusing infidelity. Let’s begin by putting the responsibility for cheating back where it belongs — on cheaters."

Agreed this free 30 minute nonsense is a mumsnet urban legend.

You said 2029 in your OP.
They just didn't read it correctly x

Mate, it sound like he's checked out and no amount of couples therapy is going to help if that is the case.

Sorry x

Agree

Get your ducks in a row for a separation and divorce. Legal advice, financial advice, housing advice, talk with local advisory organisations. Confide in a real life trusted friend or family member who has the full context of your marriage.

Be prepared and armed with information and a plan before you talk with him. You missed the opportunity to talk when you found the condoms but from everything else you say, this is only part of the picture anyway.

You don't "deserve" to be cheated on due to infrequent sex. The lack of sex is a symptom of the damaged relationship not the cause.

I've never let my children use my phone because I didn't trust them not to smash it - I'm capable of doing that myself! But I'd happily let my husband or any other adult look at all my messages and socials and photos.

I disagree. I did!

OP you are doing the right thing. Don't let him gaslight you and look after yourself and your kids 🧡

Well you should put a lottery ticket on as you are exceptionally lucky!

financial control
unexplained debts appearing (to the tune of multiple thousands)
explosive arguments (both of us)
porn addiction

Come on, OP - needing 'evidence' or him to 'come clean' is just avoidance. You don't need him to 'come clean' he is filth from the inside out.

I realise this now.