Just how much is a stay at home wife and mother worth in a divorce?

[JFDIYOLO]

Reading some stories today of women in middle age whose husbands suddenly announce they are divorcing them - and that because the wives never had a 'proper job' or brought in any income while creating their family and home life, they are not entitled to any financial settlement ...

I got to thinking just what jobs SAH women do in a marriage, and what it would cost their husbands to hire in those services, if they did not have that free labour under their roof?

These home roles spring to mind ...

Surrogacy / adoption costs and fees if applicable where you are
Nanny
Nurse
First aider
Childminder / babysitter
Chauffeur
Social secretary and kinkeeper
Medical secretary
PA
Housekeeper
Shopper and grocery delivery service
Cook
Scullery maid / pot washer
Waitress
Cleaner
Laundry and ironing service
Gardener
Dog walker / dog trainer / pet sitter
Mediator / negotiator
Teacher
Dressmaker
Interior designer / decorator

Just noticed many of these roles could come under Downton Abbey-type paid service jobs.

Then multiply that by the number of years of marriage, to arrive at a realistic sum for an invoice ...

In these divorce cases, might it be worth having this kind of calculation done as a matter of course?

What's missing?

Funny how these SAHM who berate the ‘capitalist wage slaves’ are funded by husbands who magically aren’t wage slaves but earn super salaries while managing to spend loads of time with their children and having flexibility to have long periods of time off work. Yet at the same time they never imagine that some of us WOHM also might earn great salaries and have flexibility and spend loads of time with our kids.

the lack of logic and joined up thinking is hilarious! Makes me glad I’ve always maintained an interesting career as it seems too much scrubbing fence panels causes a lack of clear thinking 😂

Impossible for 2 parents to do it and also be at home 24/7 with multiple under-5s though isn’t it? Those couples will rely on nurseries/childminders/GPs, obviously. The only Mum with an extremely high earning career in my eldest’s year group I haven’t seen once at the school gates so far this year, very heavily reliant on wraparound.

Maybe impossible with 2 landscaped gardens to maintain, but we managed beautifully with one, several children and two interesting careers.
Sorry if that bothers you and you’re desperate to reframe it, but that’s the reality.

And yet on another thread you're saying nobody uses the wraparound care as (direct quote from you) -

• Parents who both work from home alternate doing the school runs/both do it together. They often schedule a break to do the afternoon school run and spend time socialising with the SAHMs at the park before logging back on. SAHMs sometimes cover the odd work phone call during these social times if one does need to pop home.

Very few do at our school. Numbers have dropped hugely. More do WFH now. It’s one extreme to the other. The ones who do use it need it 5 days both breakfast & ASC. Numbers have dropped significantly though. More and switching to being a SAHP, more are both working from home. Other schools I’d imagine a majority use it. That will vary.

Not at all, doesn’t bother me. The people who bother me are the ones who jump straight on these threads to talk down to SAHMs, to make out they do nothing, to make out they do exactly the same, to completely undermine their contribution. Then they get defensive when a SAHM states exactly how much they are doing, clearly because they know full well they are NOT doing exactly the same.

Come back to me when you personally have cared for multiple under 5s, fully ran your i
own home, fully co-ordinated hospital care for one child around school for the other and also run an extremely ill ILs home with no help or outsourcing, then we’ll talk more.

That's the same at our school. I have a senior stressful job but (when DS was younger) I did about half the school runs. That's why I don't really recognise your world in which you need one person fully home and one fully focused on work to make life work. In fact I'm at a level where I entirely run my own diary and would never miss a sports day for example.

Quick google tells me about 1.5m people in the UK are SAHPs, out of about 44m working age peope so it is not all that prevalent. A good thing as if every household only had 50% of adults economically active our economy would be even more dire. I am very happy to live and let live and some of the SAHM lives here sound pretty good.

Whether we like it or not we are in a capitalist society. We need money to live and we need to work to have money (aside from the welfare safety net for those in need). If you are married and make a deal with your spouse that they will work on behalf of you both, and you will look after the children and the home on behalf of you both (and you trust them to stick to that deal lifelong) then fair play. It isn’t for me, I would need much more equality in my marriage and would want to role model differently for my children.

It would be lovely if we only needed one average wage in a household to have a decent standard of living but those days are long gone. It would also be lovely if those that can SAH recognize their privilege and don’t criticize WOHMs, and those that work don’t bitterly belittle SAHPs.

@Addictforanex
It isn’t for me, I would need much more equality in my marriage and would want to role model differently for my children
Equality is an interesting concept and one that's hard to pin down. For me, equality lies in the power dynamics in a relationship. This isn't always dictated by money and in my experience is actually determined more by other factors such as mutual respect and attitudes to decision making.

It is perfectly possible for a marriage to be equal and to have a SAHP and working parent. It's also possible for an unequal marriage to exist with two working parents earning exactly the same as each other.

I also think the concept of role modelling is interesting. Don't you think it's healthiest for people to role model how people can live the lives they want in a responsible way? So if someone had a desperate desire to be a SAHP, it is great if they can role model for their kids how this can be done in a sensible way. The children may not have the same dreams and desires but they will have seen their parents living content lives and will strive for this themselves. Remember SAHPs are the minority now so it's not like children won't be exposed to other ways of life and potential career options. This is society's default now so it's unlikely that having a parent that is a SAHP will limit your own aspirations when there is an abundance of other role models showing how mothers can also work in various roles and do other things.

Odd that you feel that the SAHP arrangement you outline doesn’t offer you ‘enough equality’? My DH is a company director (of 37 companies in fact), the parent company being a FTSE100 one. His earnings put him in the top 1.5% of earners… however, he values my role and the work I have done to build our home and support our children through school/homeschooling/and onto university (significant SEN and MH needs) as MORE important and valuable than his career. We are ‘equally’ contributing to ensuring our children are safe and supported - him by earning the cash, me by allocating it to provide the best care, education and support for the children and maximising the value of our main asset (our home) so that they will be secure when we pop our clogs.

He doesn’t consider me ‘less than’ in any way and, in fact, regularly hires middle aged women returning to work after a child rearing break and putting them on accelerated career development schemes precisely because he knows that there is more involved in FT parenting that sticking the hoover over and getting the kids to school on time. I am completely my husband’s equal, something he reminds me of on a regular basis every time people denigrate SAHMs. We are a partnership of equals, in fact, just with different roles within it.

In fact, I am hoping to get back to work next year, when my youngest goes to uni, for a bit of a break. I can’t wait to have a clearly defined job description, annual salary and legally defined working hours and annual leave.

In Australia the “homemaker contribution” of a stay at home parent is deemed to be equal to an earning partner’s salary no matter how high when working out a financial settlement for divorce. I used to really enjoy explaining that to the men who assumed their “big salary” entitled them to more when they explained that their wife “didn’t work” 😁

My mediator seemed to believe I should live on CA and UC whilst living in my son’s house whilst STBEX lived in a 4 bed house and financially supported his new partner. Emboldened by this STBEX applied to court that I had no housing need, no need for spousal maintenance, and that he could keep 62% of his pension after a 30 year marriage where I was full time carer to his now adult disabled DC. I had no employment or pension as I had been full time carer for decades and could not return to work and was nearing retirement.

The judge told him he was deluded, maintenance pending suit, at least 50:50 split of pension plus spousal maintenance to include the cost of adequately housing myself. His new partner dumped him quick smart after the hearing.

You don’t need a solicitor. I was litigant in person with the help of wikivorce.

This thread is alternately hilarious and tragic.

That’s blatantly obvious! I had a DD1 with complex SEN, diagnosed rising three.

Over the next few years, I was having to take her to appointments and assessments with speech and language therapists, consultant community paediatricians, occupational therapists, physiotherapists, educational psychologists, specialist speech and language teachers, LA officers, the teachers (above and beyond the normal parents’ evenings); the annual reviews (MDT meetings with the above professionals) and when she reached age 5, four sessions of psychotherapy a week with CAMHS after school (for a year, going down to three the next year, two the year after until she was down to one a week by age 10).

I also had to deliver the programs of speech and language therapy, physiotherapy and occupational therapy they devised for her after school, as well as helping my other two DC with their homework. The truth is, if I didn’t do the therapy programs with her, she wouldn’t have got more appointments. They didn’t waste their time on children, who were not going to get the input!

I also realised the LA wouldn’t know the truth if they fell over it, and lied through their teeth to us. I had to empower myself by studying education law, language disorders, dyslexia, dyspraxia, so I knew what the law said she was entitled to; and I understood her difficulties and what the assessments really meant.

On top of all those NHS and LA appointments, we paid for private assessments to find out the truth about her complex needs, instead of the whitewashed picture, you get from the NHS and LA, because if they identify problems, they have to address them - its cheaper for them to cover it all up and rely on parents’ ignorance!

DD1 was in specialist provision from reception up to age 22. I listened to hundreds of parents, mainly women who also had children with complex SEN. I found they mainly fell into two camps:

1. SAHMs who took their children to all the appointments and assessments. They fought the LA to get their children the education, they were legally entitled to - including appeals to the courts, which could mean collating a thousand pages of evidence
2. Women, who worked full time; but who did not put the time and energy in fighting all the way, to get their children what they needed

I was a full time qualified professional, before I had DC in a profession where a minimum of 70 hours a week was the norm. It is ludicrous to suggest that all the appointments I had to take DD1 to, the therapy and the paperwork I had to do for her, could be fitted into a full time job in my profession, as if all it would take was control of my diary!

It doesn’t stop when they leave education either; it’s just a different circus with social services, the ICB and multiple NHS appointments!

That all sounds really difficult and like you do an amazing job.

As others have said, you’ll get at least 50% of the marital assets, maybe more, child maintenance and equalised pension pots, your exH waltzes off with his career, salary, future earning potential etc. plus mostly likely all but every other weekend to himself to date, socialise etc. You potentially start at the bottom of the career ladder trying to fit in around school times and holidays.

If you have a child with complex care needs, or a disabled relative needing care etc, of course it makes sense to be a sahm. Arguably you could say that's being a carer rather than a sahm.

That's a very, very different thing to being a sahm with school age children with no additional needs, freeing you up to curate two properly thriving landscaped gardens and labelling yourself simultaneously a nurse, teacher, mediator and waitress.

I didn’t “outline this arrangement” of SAH parenting: it was outlined in the OP.

I am not sure why you are taking other posters’ general comments (clearly invited by the OP creating this thread) so personally if you are happy with your decisions.

I am a lone parent to two DC who both have disabilities so your post directed at me did make me chuckle.

I provide for them, they have a wonderful home in a lovely part of the country. I am here for them to talk to every day after school. I provide for their every need and ensure they have a standard of living just as good as their friends with two parents.

They have home cooked meals every night and tell me I’m the best cook in the world (they may be biased but, you know, they kind of love me). They have extracurricular activities - sports, music, art. They have fabulous holidays. They never go to after school clubs or holiday clubs (and no, I don’t have any family helping). I’ve raised them both alone since they were babies.

I’ve never missed a sports day or school play or parents’ evening. I’m here every morning when they wake up and every evening at dinner and bedtime. They’ve had private healthcare treatment for their medical needs. They both have lots of friends and regular playdates and spend lots of time outside in parks and nature. Their home is clean and tidy.

I’ve battled the LA through tribunals to get them the educational support they require. I even homeschooled one for several months when they couldn’t attend school. They know I am here for them whenever they need me day or night and always have been. Meanwhile I also have a career and earn a very decent salary even by Mumsnet standards and am nobody’s financial dependent and I wouldn’t ever change that.

Only one landscaped garden though, so I’m sure they’ll end up needing some trauma therapy as adults.

This is a disgusting comment.

My children have had operations, assessments and treatment from paediatricians, ENT, neurologists, OTs, SALT, physios, educational psychologist, psychologists, psychiatrists and all the rest. I’ve battled the incompetent and lying LA through multiple tribunals and paid tens of thousands of pounds for healthcare for them due to the failing NHS. I’ve taken them to every single medical appointment myself, dealt with all the paperwork, implemented treatment programmes, attend endless meetings, calls and appointments with the school and LA and advocate and doctors and done all of the things you describe and even homeschooled one for a time as there was no other option.

I still work full time and always have done regardless, as do many, many other parents. Your suggestion that parents who are responsible both for providing for their children financially and caring for them neglect their children’s needs is shameful.

Oh, and it’s also nice to know that the only name on the deeds of my house is mine. Nobody has a hold over what I choose to do, where I live and how my life will pan out, or the ability to take this home full of happy memories away from us because a romantic relationship goes sour or has run its course.

I do wonder sometimes whether some of the over-exaggerated self-justifications like we’ve seen in this thread are generated ultimately by a fundamental sense of insecurity. I can’t imagine why else people would be so bothered about what strangers might think of their life choices or, indeed, be worried what divorce courts might decide to do because if they genuinely felt secure in their relationships and “arrangements” with their husbands then surely the mechanics of divorce proceedings would not be a relevant concern?

I spoke from my experience of a DC in specialist provision for 17 years; and listening to hundreds of other parents. I became friends with various lay parent advocates and independent professionals, including my education solicitor. (I did as much of the work as I could for our four tribunals, to save money)

You can disagree from your personal experience; but that doesn’t trump my experience, and what other parents and independent professionals have told me.

I didn’t bother to go into the 999 calls up to 3 times a week, frequent admissions to the paediatric HDU, surgery, the broken bones and other injuries needing assessment at MIU or A & E, etc because that wasn’t the experience of most of the parents I came across, whose children had complex hidden disabilities.

Good Q. In the 70s was there not an academic Ann Oakley who did some research in this area? She studied how the unpaid labour of women propped up the whole system. Problem is these days working women have all that the Spanish statue lady has to bear plus in some cases a FT job on top.
Thankfully in UK domestic or other contributions are treated equally. What’s changed is less likely to get spousal maintenance for life. Rightly so in my view and why we need to teach our kids whatever gender identity to make smart choices.

I have a friend who won’t get divorced because it will mean she has to support her feckless, idle husband even more than she does now. They live in separate flats in the same building.

Surrogacy 😂 most men would not be bothered with kids if not for their partners

No competent solicitor, advocate or medical or education professional who observed the professional ethical requirements of their job or GDPR would be discussing other cases or parents with you, even without disclosing personal details.

Almost all parents of children with disabilities establish networks of other parents and professionals involved in education/ law over time as a consequence of having to navigate the system. Your personal anecdotes and opinions do not constitute data and facts. You’re not in some immensely unique position to pronounce on other people’s parenting that justifies your absurd and nasty, false proclamation that parents who work neglect their childrens needs and, as I said, your comment stating this and trying to use your opinion about this to attempt to elevate parents who don’t work over those who do is unevidenced nonsense and, frankly, shameful.