SEPTEMBER 2025 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

I have now set up a new thread as the previous one is now full.
This long runnning thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.
The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!
One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'
Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.
Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.
You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
I started with this book and found it really useful.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."
Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.
Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hello
im new here.just wanted to say hi and ask for a hand hold.
my DF announced a few weeks back that he has Dementia. Just called me now to say actually they ‚made an error‘ and he’s fine. This is not the first time he’s pulled tricks like this. I’m exhausted by him.
he physically and emotionally abused me as a child and it feels like it’ll never stop.
im not really sure what to say or do tbh
DM is very reliant on him and would never stand up to him.

Welcome to the thread Moreteanow.
Your DF sounds like a difficult person to deal with. They seem to pull the 'deathly ill' trick when things haven't been going so well for them, they get a feeling of victimhood and some attention. It also makes you feel like a horrible person when you doubt they are telling the truth, there's always the chance it could be real this time.

@SlowSloths i can’t say I’m surprised by Toxic Twat BIL. He’s only motivated by sex, power and money. He has shafted many people over the years and is facing a lonely and impoverished old age. He’s 62 now with a 30-something wife who he’s only married for free care. Not in the best of health.

Thank you for the welcome @Thelnebriati
yes it’s the not knowing if it’s true. I doubted it was true and felt bad for thinking this. Sure enough it’s rubbish. It’s just shit to have such a child as a parent.

@MonkeyfromManchester im sorry to hear your BIL is causing problems. I hope you get some peace from him

@Moreteanow that’s a really nasty trick of your dad’s. I’m so sorry. The constant mind games and using illness or infirmity to get you back in your box is exhausting. Please take care. This forum is an absolute life line. Xxxx

@MonkeyfromManchester a leopard can't change it's spots, as they say.

Watched a reel on fb and it was about narcs and their 'emergencies' and it just said remind yourself 'you are not a first responder for somebody elses manufactured crisis'.
A page called 'Lets get your shift together'. Its very enlightening.

I've got a question for everyone. It's something I keep coming back to.

Do they know? When they behave they way they do, say unkind things, treat us badly, are they aware that they're doing it, and do they understand that this is why the relationship is distant/broken?

I think my father must have on some level understood that his behaviour was wrong because everyone knows that giving your spouse a black eye is wrong, don't they? But I also think that he justified it to himself - he'd had it worse so actually we were lucky and should be grateful to him for that and the fact that we weren't just proved that we were awful and deserved what we got, that whenever he was violent or awful, it was because the other person had made him do it so it wasn't his fault. He was a big fan of look what you made me do. My gut feeling is that he knew and he didn't care, not about us, anyway.

But with my mother, I just can't work it out. I keep having the thought that she's never asked. She's never asked why I don't visit, why our relationship broke, why I don't really talk to her. The fact that she's never asked makes me think that the reason she doesn't ask is because she doesn't want to know, and the reason for that is that on some level she already knows the answer. She knows she's behaved really badly and been often very unkind to me over the years. I guess sometimes I wish she would ask and then I could say and maybe things could be different going forward because it would be out in the open (as it stands, whenever I have challenged things, she's brushed me off).

I only read your first paragraph but yes, yes they know. This is how they know to act different with strangers and other people. If they acted the same with everyone they would not know but the fact they can act and do act differently depending on who they are around proves they know well what they are doing they just dont care.

Solidarity to everyone. I am LC with my elderly NMum, and have two small children. Recently I’ve noticed things about her behaviour which I don’t like. She favours my eldest and this shows up in gift giving and attention. The youngest is only 2 so isn’t aware but one day he will be. She massively projects her own trauma of being neglected after her younger sibling was born onto my kids, and constantly talks about this or that being like her childhood (which was in the 1940s), tells me I don’t pay enough attention to my eldest, which is rubbish. Has started saying things that make me feel crap, criticising my kids’ toys, I am neglecting their musical education (they’re 5 and 2!), but when I suggested she might want to pay for my son’s weekly band lessons at school, she ignored it. I don’t have the bandwidth for it, especially alongside all the ‘I’m so lonely since your dad died, you’re so lucky to have a family’ crap. I really wish she’d hurry up and die.

I remember once, when I was about 8, having another child for a sleepover at our house. My mother was all over this child like a rash, speaking to her in a soppy voice, asking her if she needed help with anything, rushing to get her a clean towel etc. I lost my temper and screamed at my mother that she never talked to me like that, never offered me help. I'm so ashamed of it looking back. The other child wouldn't talk to me again which is hardly surprising. But I can remember feeling like something inside me had snapped and I wonder how much truth there was in what I said. My parents' nickname for me was the pain.

My mother treats the siblings very differently. Especially the step sibling.

I sometimes feel, with my mother, that the rule I broke was noticing that sometimes she was really unkind to me. I wasn't supposed to notice, and for a long time I didn't, and if I did, I always felt like I'd done something wrong and would tell myself I would fix it by being a 'good' person.

I have noticed as an adult that she can be kind to me if she wants something, but it doesn't last.

It's a big burden for your eldest, being given the role of fixing your mother's hurts. I don't have much advice (my mother's preference for the eldest and dismissal of the youngest is a big part of what broke our relationship - I think my mother was also trying to use my eldest to fix old wounds) but you'll find plenty of solidarity here.

@ccraazysnakess I think they definitely know at some level, even if they deny and excuse their behaviour. As pp said, if they just really didn't know it wasn't OK wouldn't they behave like that with everyone? Any why would they lie about their behaviour if it was perfectly fine?
It sounds like your DM was also a victim, which is perhaps part of the reason (but not an excuse). I have a similar situation in my own family (although my brothers, not my DF, were the violent ones). I think they don't ask because they don't want to acknowledge that the relationship is broken and that they (at best) failed to protect us. If they don't ask, they can either pretend the relationship is fine or claim we're being 'funny' with them and they have no idea why. If they ask why, they are admitting things aren't right and opening a discussion about how they got there. Even if we tell them why the relationship is broken, if they haven't asked they can persuade themselves that it's all in our heads.
My DM seems to be developing dementia and I wonder if some of the things she says to me now that seem odd and out of context reflect things that have been on her mind for years. It could just be unconnected ramblings and I'm reading too much in to it. As an example, in the middle of discussing her food shopping order she suddenly said 'I wouldn't let anyone hit your children you know'. Then back to debating how much milk she needs.

@awkwardcow my mother was definitely a victim within the marriage, there's no denying that, and it was a long marriage - 25 years. Multiple opportunities to leave, which she always chickened out of, and in the end she only left because she met someone else and I left home not long afterwards, so it was my entire childhood. I've got a lot of anger about that. I'm often told, because domestic violence was involved, that she cannot be held responsible for anything and that I should be ashamed of myself for placing any blame at her door. But at the same time, she was an adult and I was a child. She had choices and I didn't.

I think there are two problems - one is that she failed me and she knows it. She did nothing when I witnessed things no child should witness. She let me grow up in that house. It's the toxic heart of our relationship which cannot be undone, and which, TBH, she doesn't want to fully face, and there was a lot of pressure to deny that I was angry or that it had done any long term damage because she had to be protected from upset and stress and it was my job to do that.

The other part of it is that she dislikes me. I don't think she wants to, but it's there anyway and sometimes it slips out. The adult relationship is broken because she's repeatedly been a dick to me in adulthood. I think the childhood stuff could have been overcome if it weren't for that.

I don't think you should feel shame for that. It sounds like how you felt was quite right and you were probably made by your mother to feel that the only problem was your reaction. You've reminded me of a similar incident when I was a similar age. We were on holiday and Brother was annoyed that he'd been told he couldn't take the family car for the day. For whatever reason he blamed me and punched me several times but our parents didn't try to stop him and just told me to stop 'provoking' him. The he started throwing things around and almost hit the dog, so he was swiftly removed from the cottage. I was very upset and in pain and said something along the lines of 'so it's OK to hurt me but not the dog is it'. Which was translated to 'Awkwardcow is jealous of the dog'. For the whole holiday they all laughed about it and kept asking if I wished I was a dog/was I jealous of the dog's blanket/food etc/did I want a walk too etc. Over 40 years later it is still joked about and used as an example of me being an over dramatic/attention seeking and entirely unreasonable child.

OMG they kept you firmly in your place, didn't they? That's just unbelievably cruel. I'm so sorry. There's nothing quite like using ridicule as a means of bullying.

EmmaOvary

Id be further lowering your current low contact down to zero. She will harm your dc in not too dissimilar ways as to how you have been harmed by her. Her narcissistic favouritism of your eldest (who is the golden child) over your youngest will harm their sibling relationship .

It is not possible to have a relationship with someone this disordered of thinking. Keep yourself and they away from your abuser .

Put her on an information diet and tell her what she needs to know ie nothing.

Yes. And I'm so sorry similar things happened to you as well. For me this is all being brought up to the surface again because DM is now alone and vulnerable and she, GB2 (younger brother) and the extended family are expecting me to sacrifice my own life/time with my family/work etc to do more for her. GB2 is also expecting me to step in to be his 'support human' now that our parents can't prop him up. Which might just make sense if their stories were true and DM had been the most amazing mum, we were a wonderful close family, I'd always had things easier than GB1 and GB2 (who lived with/very close to our parents to help them for years) and 'swanned off' having fun as soon as I could but always been an awkward cow and caused them trouble so now it's my turn to do something to help for once. Now it feels like I have to either keep quiet and do what they want (won't happen), keep quiet and defend my boundaries (demonstrating that I am indeed and unreasonable and awkward cow), or be very public about the reality of our family history which will of course upset DM when she is already confused and vulnerable. So the least worst option involves continuing to be the awkward cow and continually being told that I should do more/be better.

For anyone considering whether to 'make a fuss' and try to talk openly about family dysfunction or just quietly reduce contact, I would urge you to take into consideration how you will deal with a parent in old age. I don't think pushing to get my story heard would have fixed the relationship with my family and it may have resulted in us being completely NC but I think in the long run it would have been better.

My mother was all over other women but mean and ignoring to me I can remember living in my own in a flat in nearest city ( about 20 minute drive from them they had a car I didn’t) I rang her up as had flu had no food in and felt awful . She ignored it then when same thing happened with my brothers girlfriend they went round bought her food, walked her dog and looked after her and she rang me up to tell me how wonderful she was for looking after her. I thought ( but did not say as too scared to cause upset and get the silent treatment) well you would never do that for me x

@awkwardcow I am at the stage of facing parental old age now, and my mother was widowed a couple of years ago and had a big flap around (I know this sounds cruel) basically wanting to know who was going to look after her now. She tried with me. She started down the road of inviting herself to stay (for weeks at a time), which on the surface seems reasonable, but we don't have a spare room or a spare bed and it meant youngest giving up his room and sleeping on the floor while she was here. She seemed to take this totally for granted and it didn't seem to occur to her that it caused any inconvenience. I feel like a complete cow for saying this, but I just had this awful vision of a future where if I let it continue, she'd buy a flat near us and then spend all her time parked on our sofa expecting to be fed and entertained, using me for support the way she did in childhood. Despite the fact that we'd barely spoken in 20 years and she'd been absolutely awful to me on occasion, she still expected me to be available when she wanted, something which I was baffled and somewhat upset by. But I can't do it. Once she realised that wasn't an option she moved onto one of the siblings and went back to being unkind to me and we've barely spoken since.

I accepted some time ago that actually I'm OK if people think badly of me. I'm OK if they think I'm an awful, uncaring daughter. Not being afraid of that any more has really helped.

@cccrazzysnakess That sounds horribly familiar. Except in our case to the outside world (even fairly close family friends) everything has always been perfectly lovely between us. My living further away (I live closer now than I did for years, because they moved closer to me) meant no one questioned why I wasn't around. Even in more recent years although I know she complained about me being awkward etc no one saw why I was distancing myself or heard my real complaints. I know I really need to get to where you are and not care what people think. I know it's not just that though, it's also getting past being concerned about whether it upsets mum if people think we're not a perfect family. At the moment my mind still keeps getting caught up feeling like the little girl who has to put herself last because something outside her control has upset mum and I shouldn't say anything to make it worse.

Somewhat ironically, GB2 is actually inadvertently helping with this. If he was 'playing nice' I would have found it much harder to defend my boundaries with mum. But his aggressive attempts to bully me in to taking on more (including helping with his childcare as well as with mum) have made it much easier to say no. I think even he had a moment of clarity in our last big run in, when he was complaining that I wouldn't be his school holiday childcare and spat at me something along the lines of 'You don't care how hard my life is do you!!!' and my simple, calm reply was 'No'. (for context, he's not having to juggle any more than I did when I had small children but is not used to having to take responsibility. His unhinged argument is that DH and I both have school holidays off work - but no other time off- so didn't have to put our DC in holiday clubs which means it's unfair if he has to arrange and pay for holiday clubs for his child. )

@awkwardcow I know exactly what you're talking about, I made every decision based on whether or not it would upset my mother/she would like it/it was what she wanted for years. Gave her control over so many things that I was then devastated by later and wished I hadn't. I didn't realise what I was doing or that it wasn't normal or that it was bad for me. I pushed away the uncomfortable feelings. I was just so afraid of doing something she wouldn't like and I can see now that it was a cause of massive anxiety. I think it came from the fact that my father was so awful to her and so I tried to compensate for it by being good and always trying to do what she wanted. Instead of seeing it for what it was and telling me to stop, she took it as her due, and any deviation from it was met with angry tears and confusion and sometimes nastiness. Plus she would say she had to be protected from stress so she didn't get ill.

I dealt with it by avoiding her and not telling her anything and then by learning not to rush in to fix her disappointment or anger and to let that be her problem. It's hard.

@awkwardcow and @cccrazzysnakess both of those memories are horrific! I’m so sorry!

I often worry about the ‚do they know what they are doing‘. My dad does. He‘s very traumatised himself. My mum I don’t know. She never talks about it and if she does she blames everything on DF and makes out she had no options. As I’ve grown older and had my own children I feel she had choices to make and always took the easy one

she must have known he was lying about the dementia. I noticed she hadn’t called me or spoken to me about it. Apparently he’s known for days that a ‚mistake‘ was made, but he didn’t call me to tell me. Weirdly neither did she.

I’m finding them being older really tough. I’m an only child and the FOG is intense when they claim to need help.

moreteanow

Toxic parents often use previously unknown health problems in an attempt to further draw what they see as their errant offspring back into the dysfunctional fold.

They made an error re dementia. Yeah right. I do not believe your dad was ever assessed for this and at the very least he is lying through his teeth. I would stay well away from the two of them. Again there is no law that says you will need to become their carer in their old age. These people were once young and abusive, now they are old and abusive.