Help me process what to do about this friendship

[SquidProCrow]

I've got an old friend who I've known for 25+ years. I adore her: we really "get" each other in a way which is truly rare. We have similar ideas about the world, similar sense of humour, like many of the same things, have a long history together and have great fun together. Our DDs get on well, we've been on holiday together. She's part of my life.

She's always been flaky about making arrangements and meeting up. Since I've known her, she's prone to never confirming plans, changing plans at the last minute, taking weeks to respond to invitations, hedging her bets and dropping things for nebulous reasons and it often turns out she's chosen to do something else instead. I've come close to ending the friendship over this many times and have landed on a kind of stasis where I've accepted that this is "her" and that despite this she's still a loving and kind friend but this is the price of doing business. Because on a risk/reward benefit the pleasure of her company has outweighed the frustration of this behaviour.

But she's just done this again (for the second time this year) and I'm really at the end of my rope: a group of us, she, me and two other local friends, had planned to do a dinner this coming weekend and one of us messaged the group to check we were still all OK. This has been in the diary since early June and we've talked several times about what we plan to do.

Flaky friend replies in an embarrassed fashion to say she "might" be going camping instead but doesn't yet know. I messaged back to ask when she was going to know when she was going camping and that we could potentially move the dinner and she replied, sheepishly, that she's actually already decided she is going camping. So, not only has she dropped us for a better offer (again) but she doesn't have the balls to be honest about this and pretends she hasn't made up her mind, so presumably was expecting this to just quietly go away and not be asked again so she could go off camping.

Firstly I think its beyond rude, when you've got an arrangement in the diary with friends, to drop it for a better offer without explanation and I hate the fact that she does this so regularly. I can't see any excuses for this. Maybe I'm being really hardline here but I think its shit behaviour. If you commit to something with good friends you do it unless there's something genuinely unavoidable or its an offer you literally can't refuse. You don't just change your mind because someone is doing something more fun around the corner and hope you won't get called on it.

Secondly, if for whatever reason you have decided you have a better offer (for example if someone has offered you two weeks free in the Caribbean) you should be direct and honest about it, rather than dancing about the issue and expecting other people to wait while you pluck up the courage to tell them you actually have had a better offer. The sheepishness and dishonesty of saying she "might" be going camping but hadn't made up her mind annoyed me almost more than the fact she'd done it.

I'm really agonising about this. I don't want to be treated like an option rather than a priority by an old friend and increasingly this friendship feels like this. But I'm in my 50s and genuinely good friends are rarer than hens' teeth. I'm not going to call her out on it because I've done it before and it won't change, and I'm not going to block or flounce because its undignified. But I don't feel I can accept this stuff any more.

Curious as to whether this would be the last straw for others? Should I just let this friendship drift? Should I try to convey to her how much she's pissed me off? Or should I accept this as the terms of the friendship.

I think you are getting good advice here. I agree you don't need to drop her but accept she is likely to cancel and always bear this in mind when planning things. It's a case of managing your disappointment and frustration and like pp say, downgrading her a bit in terms of priority. If it's a group of 3 or more always go ahead without her when she flakes. She can contact you again to meet up at a time of her suiting.

If she is so into being spontaneous maybe organise with everyone else then message her the day before or on the day to see if she can come? She might not bother though. In my experience the'I like to be spontaneous' types usually don't actually want anyone else to be spontaneous they want others to plan and organise their lives and reserve the right to suit their own whims at any moment.

Honestly I would let her go. Had it been a couple of one offs - eg the whole summer has been crap weather and that is the one weekend that’s it’s promised to be good then I would understand, as u can go for
dinner anytime
But camping for me I hate it the rain for sure so this maybe the only time so needs the grab the chance but this isn’t the case for your friend she is doing it allll the time so I would just stop Inviting her to things . Literally stop asking. U Don’t have to stop
speaking to her, no need for NC uz can talk
via txt about other stuff kids etc, but just don’t invite her anywhere, just take the option of you being dumped away. She will soon get the message that you are all
hurt over being second options. I hate this too I understand. Put pics up on sm of you out on an outing she was not invited to, when she makes a comment you can say why would we invite u now, you never come to anything and leave it there. It’s her prob not yours

She is no friend. People always wheel out the "maybe she's socially anxious" excuse but you've clearly said here that she isnt cancelling to stay in because she's anxious, she's flaking on you for a better offer and treating you like a back up plan whilst hoping something "better" comes along. She's also lying about it and being sneaky hoping to keep you as an open "option" in case this something better doesnt materialise.

That is not anxiety, its a medical condition called being a huge dickhead.

Honestly, I am so sick and tired of being told that we should grovel and chase after people who treat us like dirt because of #bekind. Where is her kindness towards you? why is there no expectation that she should treat her friends kindly when she is clearly causing upset and doesnt seem to give a crap.

Cancelling once or twice - fine, shit happens. But this chronic pattern of dumping you for a better offer- no way. She doesnt care about you. I would dump her and focus on the people in my life who genuinely showed up for me- these are your people.

@ThisPithyJoker

You know her lifestyle and personality far better than us, but is it possible that she has a authoritative partner that isn't giving her a choice about the camping? Is it possible that she is genuinely terrible at keeping and maintaining a calendar? Is she overwhelmed with city life and camping is an escape that keeps her sane?

The partner isn't the issue: she's separated but her ex is a solid, hands-on dad with whom she has a good relationship and he wouldn't interfere in anything like this. She's got a group of local friends who go camping a lot and I'm pretty sure what's happened is that one of them has said "come camping this weekend", and she's thought "I'd love that but I'm supposed to be going out with X and Y... maybe I'll just not say anything and hope they've forgotten..."

She is terrible and keeping and maintaining a calendar but that's pretty shit, no? She's an adult with a high powered job and a teenage child. Being terrible at maintaining a calendar isn't really an option when you live like this.

I just think beyond a certain point in life you have to choose to be someone who makes good on commitments or not make it a priority.

Totally this. Great advice.

@tiddletiddleboomboom

You've just brilliantly articulated how I feel about this. I don't think I want permission to let her go. I don't want to let her go, I value her hugely, I just want her to grow up and be capable of prioritising her friends. But I can't force her.

So the calculation is whether to just allow her to drift and "downgrade" her or tell her she's upset me and read the riot act.

I've told her before that her unreliability and flakiness is upsetting and an inconvenience to other people and that the excuse making and backing out is insulting to other people's intelligence. I did this several years ago last and she got really defensive and upset. I don't think doing this again is likely to be constructive so I'll probably go for the former.

It just makes me really sad. She's one of four or five people I consider "proper" friends but it increasingly feels she regards me as a friend of convenience.

Interesting that you've brought it up with her before and she was defensive and didn't change. I have a similar friend but since we had that difficult conversation and she saw how upset I was she's made a big effort to change, so ive forgiven her. What did she say in her defence when you brought it up before?

I have a friend like this. I love her, we’ll always have a lovely time together, but she never makes an effort to see me or contact me and so I leave the ball in her court. We see each other every couple of years. I understand now that this is all she can give and not to expect anything more.

I’ve known her since I was 11 so it’s taken me at least 20 years to get this!

Generally not going on a break with the family in the school holidays if that's the time which suits because a friend's dinner is arranged is not a reason to not go on the break, however in that situation you'd contact the friends and explain and the dinner will either go ahead without you or postponed.
But if it's the last straw then it's the last straw. Don't arrange anything with her in the future

She sounds anxious and non-committal. Please don't drop her just because she's struggling a bit. She could also be time poor or prefer/need to prioritise others closer to her generally, friends tend to come last. Chill. Recognise her pattern and do things accordingly.

I’d not move plans for her. Next time she can’t make it, if you’re going with other friends just carry on. I couldn’t be doing with someone like this.

So, I am typing this response but not at all sure I will actually have the nerve to post it! What you are saying about your friend really resonates with me. However, I am in a slightly different situation in that I have lived in several different locations in my adult life so any friendships I have made have been picked up along the way and are not as longstanding as your friendship. I don't have children and most of my friendships have also been with women who don't have kids (mainly because those with children are naturally more focused on family life and have friends with kids because they all have that in common). All of them have failed over time precisely because of the situation you have described. I have in the past done all the arranging, rearranging, booking venues, accepting cancellation at the last minute etc until finally I stop contacting them to see what happens and that is it - I never hear from them again. I have lost count of the times this has happened. I am now retired and really have no friends! I would love at least one good friend who gets me and who I could meet for coffee occasionally but I don't. You sound in the enviable position of having other friends to fall back on so I think I would simply not contact her and when she calls to reschedule let her do all the running for a change. Be prepared however that this approach might mean that the friendship just fizzles out. It will show you how much she does (or doesn't) value you.

For me, one of the most important things in a real friendship is actually seeing said friend! Your “friend” is simply not a true friend and you need to let it go. She doesn’t value you and you need to face that uncomfortable truth.

"her usual tactic is after she’s done something like this she will follow up with people and try to reschedule"

I would suggest that if she calls to suggest rescheduling, that would be the ideal time to ask her if there's any point in you keeping a date clear when you never know if she's going to stick to the plan. Its a perfect example of someone thinking their time is more valuable than yours.

She's not struggling though. She's doing extremely well in her career, she's got a healthy teenage daughter. She's just emerging from the aftermath of a break up (four years ago) stronger and is starting to date again. She's on a real high.

I don't think the "time poor" thing is an excuse either tbh. I'm also extremely time poor: I have an incredibly demanding job and a daughter doing GCSEs.

As I've said before, I get that things come up, plans have to get cancelled. I would have been fine had she fronted up and said: "Look, this has happened, I know its a pain but I need to move this."

What really really annoys me is the dishonesty of it and the fact she clearly hopes people just forget they've made plans and her flakiness will go unnoticed. And she's called on it she will shut down and deflect, but the bottom line is that its because she's had a better/easier/more glamorous offer.

It’s all there in your initial post - she’s always been flaky, late to confirm plans, hedging her bets.

You say you’ve downgraded her friendship but I don’t think you have (yet). I think you’ve just been giving her more opportunities, prepared to be disappointed but ultimately thought she’d choose you.

I’ve been in a similar position and withdrew altogether. I’ve wondered what would happen if I’d read the riot act instead but really I didn’t feel like I should have to educate someone (even a really fun someone) on how to behave - they are old enough to know better so it’s an active choice on their part.

I adore her: we really "get" each other in a way which is truly rare.

She doesnt “get” you and your frustrations at her behaviour and there are key differences in your moral values.

We have similar ideas about the world, similar sense of humour, like many of the same things, have a long history together and have great fun together.

Yet its no fun being dumped at the last minute, time and again, all with a lack of respect by someone apparently on a similar intellectual level as you.

Our DDs get on well, we've been on holiday together. She's part of my life.

Yet her behaviour does not sound ideal as a role model for your DD. Nor would you want to set the example for your DD that flakiness is to be accepted and endured endlessly.

It sound to me that the risk/reward balance has finally tipped against her.

I wouldnt accept this and would let the relationship slide and be ready to explain if she asks why.

What really really annoys me is the dishonesty of it and the fact she clearly hopes people just forget they've made plans and her flakiness will go unnoticed. And she's called on it she will shut down and deflect, but the bottom line is that its because she's had a better/easier/more glamorous offer

I think you should talk to her then. It sounds like you have real anger about this which is completely understandable. Minimising how you feel and trying to be ok with things you arent actually ok with is not healthy for anyone and will breed resentment over time. You can have a polite, honest but kind conversation about how her actions make you feel and get it off your chest. If she reacts poorly (even when you have communicated your needs respectfully) then you may just have to accept that it comes down to a decision between what you are willing to put up with in a friendship. It will end up being the balancing scales between her annoying behaviour vs your shared historical friendship.

It is a real shame because its not like you are asking for the moon- just a little bit more commitment and respect for your time which is not a huge deal to ask.

Can’t you just go out with the other two friends anyway?

My sister is just like this. I’ve recently had the conversation with her about being unreliable- difficult but I was ‘driven’ to it eventually. Being sisters is the difficult thing - we share care for our elderly mum.
I’ve forgiven, tolerated, understood, waited, listened to excuses, had chats about keeping a diary and not double booking etc etc for years.
My latest strategy is working for me - not her…nothing has changed for her.
I have a jar with a lid and a small note pad. Every time she does or says something that could have an impact on me, I write it down, fold it up and put it in the jar. For some reason….the frustration, anxiety, upset etc dissipates and things carry on with a lot less stress!
Might be worth a try?

I’ve got a friend like this, although hers is in part caused by mental health issues. Also a very old friend who I wouldn’t want to lose.

I manage it by planning differently with her than I do with other people.

I will only plan things far in advance with other people as well, and I’m ruthless about still going ahead with the plan if she doesn’t come.

I will only plan things including my kids if they are things my kids would enjoy without her, and again I just go ahead if she doesn’t show.

I will only invite her for a meal if I’m also inviting other people, and if her presence isn’t crucial for the meal to go ahead. Eg if she offers to bring something I’ll say “soft drinks please” not “the bread we can’t eat the meal without”.

The upshot is that I tend to see her spontaneously without kids, for something like a coffee or a dog walk. Or as a group for a meal out. But the benefit is that I genuinely enjoy the time with her and don’t stress about her flaking.

I hope you’re going ahead with the plan anyway. Have a lovely time and cement your bonds with the other people who did make the time for the event.

And your friend doesn’t sound lovely and kind, she’s just dropped you last minute for a better offer and you had to push her to admit that her new plan was concrete. She didn’t have the guts to tell you and she didn’t have the moral courage to stick with the first plan and turn down something she might have preferred. She doesn’t prioritise you in the way you prioritise her.

You could follow up with a photo of you all having fun at the original event, say “shame you dropped out as you missed a great night, let us know when you’re free to meet” and leave the ball in her court to set another date up.

No right or wrong here, just go with your gut. I personally wouldn’t make a thing about it if you decide to drop her though - just do it quietly.

I’ve had 2 friends like this and made different decisions with each. With one I just stopped messaging her as it was getting very annoying.she also stopped messaging me so the friendship fizzled out. With another friend she’s more on the periphery of a wider group so I don’t have as high expectations of her. I extend invites to her but don’t expect her to reply or turn up. When she does (probably 25% of the time) it’s an added bonus, but I never expect it. I would never pay upfront for something with her or invite her to something 1 on 1. It’s always a group thing like a drinks meet-up or bbq.

I think rather than overtly calling her on it in any detail I would just reply to her message on the whole group chat with "Not OK." Nothing else. No emojis and no further follow up.

That will let her know you're annoyed without you having to reprise the whole how it makes you feel chat. And let her drift.

I'd call her out on the chat, along the lines of 'were you going to let us know at any point?!' You could use a 🤣 emoji if you want to appear lighthearted about it.

As a one-off, I actually think it's ok to prioritise a family camping trip over dinner with friends. But she should have been upfront about it.