Married to someone with Asperger’s/ASD/ND: support thread 16

[BustyLaRoux]

New thread.
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This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.
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It's complicated and it's emotional.
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The old thread is here.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5299389-married-to-someone-with-aspergersasdnd-support-thread-15?page=1

I run the house like a single mum and make zero requests/ demands. So much easier. I’m also perimenopause and I have an HRT patch. My mood and brain fog lifted considerably.

This helps me cope.

@EmotionalSupportHuman yes this was very familiar. Not the PM, which I’m fortunate not to be experiencing. But the angry outbursts. The simple requests or reminders to do something being perceived as criticism. My inability to find a way to word requests which wouldn’t set him off shouting or throwing stuff and saying I was criticising him. Many examples. Often these arguments would actually start with HIM criticising me!

Example: when his paperwork was piled up on the chair in the kitchen for weeks on end (paperwork always in piles and boxes which he is unable to deal with and just gets worse and worse and now he had taken over the chair as well!). I was putting something on a shelf, high up. I would usually stand on the chair as I’m not very tall. But I couldn’t because of all the paperwork. So it made a clunk as I put it on the shelf. Cue him criticising me “do you have to make such a noise putting things away? You’ll break it. In fact I’ll bet those broken bowls were down to you doing that!” Me: sorry but it’s a bit high up and I can’t stand on the chair anymore as I don’t want to crush your papers.
Well that was it. He stood up. Grabbed the papers off the chair and threw them at the fireplace. Across the room. Shouting that here I go again, criticising him and I never fucking stop. Etc etc.

Very typical. I had deliberately not mentioned the papers as I’d asked a couple of times already and knew better than to say anything again. I only mentioned it then as he was having a go at me for making a noise when I was tidying up. Rage and bellowing at me that I was criticising him endlessly. (So hypocritical as he would criticise me often).

I just tiptoed round not saying anything about all these things that messed up the house or needed doing. It drove me mad but I couldn’t risk the rages. I had rooms which I kept tidy and which were my spaces. And he had his rooms which were his and were horrendous and I hated going in there. At least that way I had some space I could relax in. And I let all the other stuff go and just shrank into my own space really.

I did find that if he was in a good mood I could gently remind him to do x and he would be fine about it. Say oh yes sorry, I’ve been a bit rubbish haven’t I? I’ll do it today. But catch him in the wrong mood and it would be met with abject rage.

It’s very difficult for him to see that his perception isn’t necessarily the reality. He sees everything in terms of his success or failure. Very egocentric. A simple request to do something = his failure that he hasn’t done it. Therefore I MUST be criticising him and that MUST be my intention, because he cannot view it in a different way. For me, failure isn’t a word I’d use. We all forget to get round to things. I just want the job done. It’s not about criticising him, it’s about getting it sorted.

I worked out the most dangerous times are when he knows he has “failed” at something and is already feeling shame about it. And if I then ask him or remind him to do it, all the feelings of him failing come bubbling up. He assumes I’m pointing out his failure because that’s what he is already feeling: Shame. And it only takes me to ask him to do something and he therefore assumes (wrongly) that I’m shaming him for his failings. So he feels like I am constantly criticising him. Which is in his head. But he cannot see that. It doesn’t help that due his autism he is also really bad at getting round to things. He is a huge procrastinator. Has massive task avoidance. So unfortunately there are often things that really need to be done and which have been left and left. Sometimes these things have financial penalties and he still ignores them. For those things there is also the feeling of mounting stress which is added to the shame of not having done it. And this is very dangerous indeed. I knew better than to remind about those.

We don’t live together anymore. Ironically in his new house he is making a real effort to get stuff done. It’s a big house and there is a lot to buy and sort. He has a lot of life admin with solicitors to sort as well. I am helping with the nice bits (decoration and so on), and he seems to be starting to understand that I am not actually criticising him endlessly, but rather trying to help him move things along. The other day he thanked me for reminding him to do something and said he appreciated the reminder! 🤷‍♀️

I love that approach @ANiceLittleHouseByTheSeaWithACatCalledBrenda and I try to roughly do that, but sometimes we really do have to make joint decisions, or I need help with something heavy (although I can ask my DC for help now they're older, which makes things a lot easier).

@BustyLaRoux you've captured it perfectly, and actually really helped me understand it better. Thank you. The being told you're "constantly criticising" is slightly crazy-making when you know you've spent (what feels like) your entire life trying to avoid mentioning anything ever.

And then sometimes you can ask them to do something, and they just do it cheerfully, and it lulls you into a false sense of security...

Hi folks.

Im married to ADHD (diagnosed and medicated), and I have Autism and ADHD myself (diagnosed and medicated).

Married for 3 years. It’s became painfully apparent over the past year that DH has zero emotional intelligence, and actually seems to recoil at anything emotions based. All of his thinking is practical and logical. He’s loyal and generous. However I feel deep loneliness. I don’t get basic ‘mirroring’ (e.g., “I can’t see you’re upset”, “That must be hard for you.”, “thank you for doing X,Y, Z”, “I love you”).

when I try to talk to him about this, he laughs and says “what difference will me saying any of that make? How will me saying ‘that must be hard for you’ change anything??” And he’ll use a sarcastic voice.

not sure what I’m looking for posting this, empathy? Hope?

Hi @NeuroSpicyCat. I'm sorry you feel so lonely. It's rough that your DH won't even try to give you what you need, but I think you have to get that kind of thing from friends or wider family, or perhaps even a therapist.

I'm not sure the lack of mirroring is an autism thing... it might just be a man thing? If I were to mention emotions, even my most enlightened male family member would probably say, "Gosh, that sounds difficult," and then change the subject back to football or music or ANYTHING else. And my female friends wouldn't really mirror my feelings back to me, they'd just make sympathetic noises and listen.

Going back to your DH, it does sound like you might need to lower your expectations around what he's capable of giving you. Expecting more than they can give is miserable, so in some ways it gets better once you realise you're never going to get what you need from them.

@NeuroSpicyCat that sounds really hard. Just checking if you know about alexithymia where people struggle to identify and name their emotions? This is perhaps the biggest challenge in my marriage. DH would deny emotions previously but has now come around to having therapy to try to express them.

@NeuroSpicyCat that sounds like a lonely place to be, the sarcastic tone would be particularly hurtful for me, essentially shutting you down. As others say, maybe see if some of these needs can be met outside of the marriage. If he is willing to engage with a therapist, it might help him understand why this is important for you.

@EmotionalSupportHuman I reduced my demands on H many, many years ago, essentially also reducing my expectations of him as a husband. It also meant I became emotionally distant as I felt I couldn't rely on him for emotional support.

For the perimenopause I now take HRT and it really helps with the PMT. Is HRT an option for you?

After another sleepless night, I did end up having a conversation of sorts with H yesterday. Essentially, I have asked for some space over the summer and encouraged him to go to his GP next week and suggested some individual therapy for us both to help process things. Followed by a talk in late August.

It ended up being a long, calm conversation, much of it going over the same things again, but this time, I was more open and honest about where it has left me/us. I took care not to blame him directly but suggested that it's a combination of upbringing, trauma, and ND that makes it an unhealthy environment for me. That I understand it's bot intentional but that the effect is the same. I take accountability for coming into the relationship with unhealthy boundaries and a habit of co-dependency, straight from a very abusive marriage. Although it's a different situation, it feels like I'm out of the frying pan and into the fire. Relating it to The Body Keeps The Score and how certain jokes or comments/ grumbles and irritation/short temper and tantrums/need to have things his way, etc, sends me straight back into a bad place.

He did listen, took some accountability, and was visibly upset that he's hurt me, did some blaming on outside factors, and made promises to try not to do these things. I suggested that maybe it's not controllable by willpower and 'trying' (as suggested in The ADHD Effect On Marriage book) but that it's too hardwired/imprinted to just change. Also indirectly reminding him that he's made all these promises before and that it's maybe not within his control.

I didn't blame or shame, I hope, as although he has behaved appallingly at times, I genuinely don't think he means to hurt me or intends to control me. Yet, the effect is the same.

For me, this is step one in a two-step plan to get my Pink Kettle Moment, and I intend to continue working towards that.

I think my hesitation to 'tell him' had partly been because I have a festival next weekend, a family trip as well as another weekend booked to fly over and see my dad. I need H to look after DD in a stable way for all these things, and I guess I feared that telling him now would jeopardise this.

Oh here is everyone, I'm slow to join the new thread!!
I can resonate with running the house like a single parent, and just assuming (knowing DH won't be involved in most of it) He doesn't even react if i say I feel like a single parent, and the other day DS (who would defend DH to the absolute hilt, and won't have a bad word said against him) described him as "largely absent" in front of him and other family. DH is sure this just means he was at work....of course....rather than he is not really actively involved in parenting or being a family.

Last weekend I did an endurance event that I've trained hard for. DH didn't come because there was something at his sports club and "anyway it would be boring because what would he do for x hours while you do the race." Another family member was there and popped up along the course to cheer 3 or 4 times. DH was quite amazed at this. I put other family members details as my emergency contact. DH attitude is "what would I be able to do anyway" rather than thinking he might want to know/see me if I had injured myself. (Of course I never have thankfully needed an emergency contact)

This morning he got up very early and started getting ready for work. I asked if he was going to wait to see DS who is doing a Duke of Edinburgh expedition today. He asked what time he would be awake. Because I couldn't give an exact time, he left....about a minute before DS woke up. Then he phoned just as I had dropped him off and asked to speak to him. I said I'd just dropped him off (where???FfS) so no. I was in the carpark but had had instructions from DS not to embarrass him. I said collection tomorrow was from <insert place> DH was surprised that it was tomorrow, he thought it was sunday. I'd actually like to go shopping with DD tomorrow but I really don't know if I can trust DH to collect at the right place, at the right time....(I can imagine the scenario ...I was in the garden, I didn't have my phone, I didn't see what the time was, I didn't know the time might be different....etc etc)

Annoying thing is he was able to leave work really early last week ...for something to do with his hobby! 🙄Grrrr

I also lost the thread, glad to find you.

it’s the weekend and he’ll be looking for sex. He has not spoken to me this week, he will suggest watching tv together and hell drink and then hope for sex. I have never been less interested, he feels like a stranger and I was never interested in one night stands.

but, if I don’t have sex hell give up even “tv”. Bur it’s lazy, minimum effort. It shouldn’t be “rewarded” and will just make me feel like shit.

I am so bored of fucking autism

I had to reread you post @ItReallyDoesntMatterAnymore. I thought I wrote it!

Thanks @ItReallyDoesntMatterAnymore

I can and do take HRT. I’ve got all the levels about right now, I think, but I still have hormonal ups and downs and I’m still horrible for a couple of days around my period. DH won’t accept this, even though I mark it on the calendar. And he says I’m grumpy “all the time”. I don’t think I am, but obviously it’s hard for me to judge, and it’s definitely not worth arguing with him about it…

Edited because I meant to say this too: I know exactly what you mean about the emotional distance. It’s very hard to lower your expectations of someone AND stay emotionally close. My DH says I feel distant, but I don’t know how else to cope. If you have normal relationship expectations and closeness, you end up constantly disappointed. My DH essentially “future fakes” all the time. He says he’ll do things, or we’ll do things together, and the truth is those things will never happen. I used to think he was a liar, but I think he really believes these things will happen, magically, without him having to do anything. But of course that’s not how the world works.

Just to say I strongly relate with the expectations- emotional distance thing. I’ve been trying to get closer but then that engenders expectations and we end up having excruciating conversations that illuminate how different we are, which becomes disheartening.

DH acknowledging his Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria has been a relatively recent game-changer. At least I can explain the loop whereby I seek reassurance, he takes it as a criticism. Resulting in him seeking further reassurance and me pulling away completely as I still haven’t been heard. I’m not sure he ‘gets’ it yet but at least it’s become sayable.

My DH essentially “future fakes” all the time. He says he’ll do things, or we’ll do things together, and the truth is those things will never happen. I used to think he was a liar, but I think he really believes these things will happen, magically, without him having to do anything. But of course that’s not how the world works.

This is exactly my DH, he likes the idea of something, and I think hopes it will happen....but is unable to connect/identify/make time for, all the steps required between having an idea and making it a reality. Often researching, or booking things. He promised my kids a tree house for literally years (they are teens now)

Hes often going to fix things that will be "really easy" to sort out....but they remain unfixed for years ...or he tries and fails but can't deal with the fact it didn't work so refuses to pay soneone who might be able to do it! Tbf he is quite practical but quite often gets distracted by more interesting for him/less useful projects (latest being a "hedgehog house")

Hello I've been a bit hesitant to post here and namechanged.

DP is self diagnosed autistic and also had OCD among other co morbidities.

Im not sure where to start with asking questions on here so I'll start with the basics: when he's in a strop or a nitpick or a huge stress about something which seems to be several times a day do you rise to it and argue or just de-escalate and ignore?

Hi @InterestedBeing. I try to predict potential flash points (usually transitions like packing, needing to leave the house etc) and aim to be out of the house. If I’m there, I’ll either ignore or make one gentle offer to help with whatever the problem is (usually some essential item has been lost). If the rage increases beyond what I’m comfortable with, I leave the house.

Yeah the RSD thing was a lightbulb moment, why me not wanting sex every time is seen as a rejection of him in his entirety rather than I just don’t feel like sex! He never got stroppy if I said no but if things were being discussed it would be brought up that I always said no, not true, but in his head……

@ItReallyDoesntMatterAnymore same here about not asking for things to be done.
I do ask dh for help - like ‘can you take xyz down for me!’ And as dh (usually) does it with a scold, I add ‘I’m not as tall as you. I can’t reach’.
Thats it. He is totally able to make the relationship between him puttimg stuff in unsuitable places/chair covered in papers but because I haven’t mentioned it, it’s not received as an implied criticisms as much.
Being asked repeatedly to do stuff is often also annoying enough fur him to actually do something about it.

It does feel PA to me. So I’m quite careful to keep it very ‘stating facts’ manner.

Yep I’ve read the book too.

And YY it has affected me a lot. Still does tbh.
Not in a ‘let’s replicate behaviour’ but in me always thinking if something goes wrong it’s my fault, pacifying etc etc…. And what my therapist thinks is c-PTSD

I ignore.
Mainly because it seems that any attempt at helping are never quite right and dint help.
The thing is, dh never asks for help (too avoidant for that) so he on his iwn dealing with said stresses on a regular basis.

I don’t often post these days, because I’ve probably said it all before, but I could have written this. My H promises the world, and I think he likes the idea of things we’ll do, holidays, weekends away, trips to the coast, nice meals out….but he doesn’t research, book, plan so none of it happens. If I try to plan, he finds some excuse. We go nowhere and do nothing together apart from a monthly trip to B&Q, the Garden Centre or M&S Food.

We last went on holiday together in 2019 and it was such a disaster I swore I’d never go again - a heady mix of his anxiety, forgetting to pack things, terrified that people would steal from us or clone our credit cards, making rituals about mealtimes, and drinking himself into oblivion. By day 3, I was googling divorce lawyers and wondering if I could get an early flight home.

it’s a very big birthday for me this weekend, he’s wittered on for a year about going away, bla bla bla, nothing planned. A daughter in law is taking me out tomorrow, and I’ve booked a restaurant for Sunday lunch for husband, adult sons and d-i-ls. (he’s already stressing about the time because it’s slightly later than the time he likes to eat). I’ve bought my own birthday present because he told me to get whatever I wanted. He’ll have got me a card from moonpig because he’s calendared it.

Thank god for my fabulous friends (who I go away with regularly) and my lovely sons and d-i-l and who keep me relatively sane.
love and Unmumsnetty hugs to us all.

I’m really sorry to everyone who has struggled to find the new thread. This is my fault. Twice now I’ve started a new thread and put the link on page 39 instead of page 40! In my head for some reason I somehow decided that when we got to the end of page 39 that would The End. But of course the thread continues to end of page 40. Sorry to everyone who has had difficulty finding us. I worry I may have lost some people along the way….. 😞
I don’t know what happened to Daft. I hope they’re OK. I’m very happy for anyone else to take over starting of threads when the time comes. Apologies again for my miscalculation and eagerness.

@ItReallyDoesntMatterAnymore wonderful that you’ve started step one. Do be careful not to give ambiguous signals as these could be misread into thinking this time is the same as before, where promises to do therapy etc mean there is a chance of you both making a go of it. I would suggest being very clear that there is no way back this time. Your mind will not be changed. That therapy is a means to deal with the changes which are coming, not a last ditch attempt at making the marriage work. I only say this as I know communication is an issue. My DP often reads conversations very differently to how I have read them. He reads meaning into things where there is none. I have to be really clear on what I’m saying. But yes, well done!!! You’re really making it happen this time! It’s great that you haven’t allowed life (festivals, plans, bad timing - there’s never a good time!) get in the way. Pushing ahead is the right thing to do. Your pink kettle is ready when you are. Xx

@InterestedBeing absolutely ignore! If DP is in one of ”his moods” and is looking for an outlet. He will go through things endlessly criticising and nit picking about me, my ex, his ex, my kids, his siblings, his employers….. it doesn’t stop (how amazing that he tells me off for criticising him all the time!!! If I went off on one, like him, he would explode at me after a few minutes). I know he wants me to engage. Then he can really go to town. The rage, the indignation, the shouting…. So I do nothing. I say “mmmm, yeah” and nothing more.

Obviously now we’re not sharing a house there is much less opportunity for him to find things to criticise me or my children for. But he will lay into my ex and how I support him and always take his side - it’s very complicated as my ex is actually the partner of his ex now, and that has created a very complicated and acrimonious situation. Not for me. I get on fine with my ex, who was a shit husband but is a decent dad and has my back when needed. DP HATES my ex and rants about him all the time. Including in front of my DC!!! Which is unacceptable. So yeah, now he rants about that. I don’t give it the time of day other than to say I don’t agree. But even that is an invitation for him to challenge and criticise me. So I just say I have nothing further to say on the matter. And I do not utter another word. Not one. I just look at him and blink. Which he finds intolerable! He then deliberately says something awful and provocative and then adds “mm??” Inviting me to agree. Which I will not. Or disagree (so he can then shout and rant some more). But which I also will not. There is nothing he can say which will give him what he wants: A reaction. Eventually I might say “are we done? Shall we move on?” But I ignore every attempt to make an argument. Because it’s what he wants. An outlet for his internal rage. Well, he ain’t getting one from me.

I feel very zen in these moments. 😂