Married to someone with Asperger’s/ASD/ND: support thread 16

[BustyLaRoux]

New thread.
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This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.
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It's complicated and it's emotional.
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The old thread is here.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5299389-married-to-someone-with-aspergersasdnd-support-thread-15?page=1

@Fififizz@QuaintCattheres a good episode from an ND couples therapist on the Hidden 20% podcast, where she says one person in the relationship often becomes the ‘over-facilitator’. She talks about every relationship needing a sense of its own equality (even if the tasks are divided differently). My DH sent this to me and we were both able to listen to it and see that I was in this role. It hasn’t materially changed things but it’s helped us have some conversations.

About how to equalise in some manner, and get me out of this over-facilitator role I mean.

I totally get this, I need to be wife, PA, business partner, cleaner, ideally SAHM (or at least primary taxi service and advice line for teens) The kids used to come to me for absolutely everything, even interrupt me in the toilet for something urgent like needing a biscuit...and I'd always say "you have 2 parents" but the longer things have gone on, all of us have realised asking DH to be involved/do something (not related to any hobby of his) is usually not worth the bother.
As I said in a previous post, he's checked out of just about anything involving online apps/portals/emails etc...which absolves him of a massive amount of responsibility/head space. .....I wouldn't mind (quite as much) if he actually took the lead on practical stuff but aside from cooking (and creating an enormous amount of mess) he doesn't really engage with any household chores.

A while ago another poster talked about future faking , talking about going on holiday/to places etc. DH does this, also grand plans for DIY projects or buying a house in France (I obviously get no say in this!)....but even in really mundane things, he'll come in and see me clearing/washing up and say "leave that, I'll do it later" ....and later never comes. Virtually every Sunday evening he says it (after having consumed a bottle of wine) ....and if I take him at his word - mostly I dont- I end up doing it all on Monday morning.

@Sweetandsaltycaroline

I recognise a lot of this. As the default parent you take on more and more. Not because of choice but because of necessity. My DH gets so impatient with online stuff it’s been easier to step in and deal with things. However in the long term this adds more to the mental load. I need to figure out a way to save myself. I’m struggling with menopause too. I’m post menopause and on HRT and when it works I feel a bit more able to cope and put things in place to keep afloat a bit better but I keep having to tweak my regime as absorbing seems to be an issue for me.

I could have written every work of this @Sweetandsaltycaroline

Yes to all that @Sweetandsaltycaroline in fact yesterday when H had given DD a cake, I suggested he also brings her some milk and he said 'of course!' 15 minutes later he had disappeared somewhere in the house, couldn't see and milk so I asked DD if H had given her milk. Her reply was 'of course not! It's dad!' So she knows.

I have a question about ADHD; can emotional dysregulation and/or impulsiveness lead to someone saying unkind things and being a bit of a bully, even if they are usually kind and thoughtful when regulated? Because, despite reading books on ADHD and the effect on marriage I am still not quite understanding this.

I'm talking about things like when my H mocked me in a mean way by copying what I said but in a way someone with a severe learning difficulty might say it. Or when he's used derogatory language or groped me 'without thinking'. It's as if he has no impulse control. During a conversation last week it became clear that he feels self critical almost all the time and is constantly feeling like he should be 'better' at work, life and everything. I wonder if he is projecting his own self loathing onto me somehow?

He has now been put on a Right To Choose pathway by GP as he scored high enough on the ADHD 'test'.

We've debated similar on here many times and yes, I know it's not nice and I am slowly working my way out. But, I am trying to understand how and why he behaves like that and if it really can be because of his ND.

You hear a lot of it on here 'my DH is anxious avoidant' or whatever the current phrase is, trying to explain away shitty behaviour by diagnosing some problem that the poor man can't help. It's one of those examples of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. Too much poorly understood 'therapy speak' to try to reason away unpleasantness.

I think such unpleasant behaviour is always a choice.

Of course it is unpleasant and I am not trying to suggest that I am accepting it or blaming it on him not being able to help it. Just wondering if this was familiar to anyone else. I am not qualified to say what lies behind it but it seems to me there is more than ND here and I guess I'm trying to figure out my next step in leaving and how to make it as smooth as possible for DD.

Update on the Neurodiversity Shitshow which is my current (non) relationship with my Stepson, his partner and the New Baby.

Unsurprisingly he continues to insist the Incident is true. The Incident is where I allegedly informed him he was a bastard when he was 8 during a holiday - soon after I came into his life - adding that the reason why he was a bastard is that his parents weren't married at the relevant time. In the story his father was there at the time.

I didn't swear or use bad language to my stepchildren, and his Dad would have been totally horrified if I'd done this. Nor did I disclose anything more adult/private, that he had told me in confidence. If this incident had taken place it would have almost certainly have ended our relationship.

But Stepson can't accept even anything like the idea of memory as something that is unreliable. That it gets muddled with things we think or imagine, or which happened in a different way, at a different time, perhaps with another person. So people will remember events very differently.

Meanwhile his partner who witnessed domestic violence as a child is adamant that she would never ever have anyone around her new baby who shouted or swore.

So he is insisting that this happened exactly as he said it did,

Meanwhile he and his girlfriend are also telling my husband that they really want everything to be alright again and for me to be involved with their baby.

Is this all completely crazy? I feel as if it's driving me mad. My husband understandably wants to be on good terms with his son and see the new baby. (While also realising that his son's narrative would mean he was also a pretty rubbish father for failing to intervene.)

Out of interest, how often is your adult stepson in contact?

Im in the trenches of stepparent hood at the moment and am hoping things get easier…

He lives a couple of miles away. He and his Dad WhatsApp every few days. Used to be round about once a fortnight.

Sorry about the trenches. I would have said things get better. For a long time they were better. Until they weren't

He sounds delusional. We can’t make something be true that isn’t. But then I’m sometimes not sure if they can tell the difference between truth and what they have made up. I’d step back, right back otherwise you risk entering this weird reality where you try and convince someone who’s delusional. Isn’t there a saying “let them”.

Once a fortnight for how long? And for what reason?

Coming out of the lurk to offer my view on this, I can imagine my son having this kind of ‘reality’ as an adult. Is it possible he asked you what the word Bastard meant, you explained it and he realised that related to him therefore his logic is you called him a Bastard?

Ouch, that sounds horrible @PollyHutchen

DH is in a funny mood, he's grumpy about a school meeting tomorrow being at the more awkward school site and he suddenly got all confrontational with oldest about their unconventional dress sense, something he's always appeared supportive about and it kind of came out of nowhere. I think he did talk to them afterwards and maybe sorted it out. Also he's gone to the gym now, which usually puts him in a better mood.

I get you. Understanding helps. It’s not to excuse (though it may look like that’s what you’re trying to do). It’s about just knowing why something happens.

I don’t know, is the honest answer to your question. Perhaps it is lack of impulse control (ADHD). Me and my DC have ADHD, and although we’re quite different in many ways, we do all have some form of poor impulse control. I wouldn’t say the mocking or groping would be the result of that necessarily. But I suppose it could be. Sorry. Not v helpful! My DP used to say something regularly which I found insulting and offensive. He used to say it quite a lot. I asked him to stop. He wouldn’t. Just kept saying it. When I eventually explained how it made me feel and why I wanted him to stop (I had to go into quite a lot of detail), he did actually then stop. I had impress on him that something he thought was trivial but true was not trivial to me and was being experienced as very unkind. When I made that clear, he was able to gain some empathy and stop. It seemed less impulse control and more that me asking him to stop was just me being silly. He would continue to say it because he knew better and besides, as far as he was concerned it was true. Once I got him to see it from my side (like I say, he can do this, but I have to find the right time and explain it calmly and firmly), he understood and was sorry he’d said it. He’s only said it once since then in all long long time and was very apologetic afterwards. I wonder if your DH thinks you’re being silly and therefore just disregards your feelings entirely. My DP can empathise with a lot of persistence and help from me. It’s not natural though. Does your DH simply lack empathy and carries on doing things like the groping and mocking, not because of impulse control, but because he knows better and doesn’t appreciate how it makes you feel at all. As far as HE is concerned, doing those things is fine and you’re going to have a very hard time convincing him otherwise. Is it rigid thinking and lack of empathy which drives the behaviour?

Dunno. Just a theory….

I'm leaning more towards the rigid thinking and lack of empathy @BustyLaRoux although he did seem genuinely upset and shamed when we had the conversation a couple of weeks ago and I really went into detail as to why his mocking was so hurtful as well as harmful. But yes, I do think you are onto something there with the him knowing better and me being silly. His manner is often that of being somewhat superior to me and he has used the word 'silly' or even 'silly woman' when communicating with or towards me.

I realise I'm harping on about him a lot on here when I really just need to leave! Like I'm stuck on the spot, analysing his words and actions when deep down I know I need to stop. Been doing that for years now and it's draining!

But I am going to try and redirect my energy and focus on the practical now, and less on the wondering how and why did we end up here.

Maybe it was the confirmation from the GP that yes, he very likely really is ND, that had me wonder.

Interesting experience with my relative the other weekend. We went out for the day. Got the train. It was busy, etc. I always find that she is confrontational with everyone. As if looking for a fight all the time. Never lets anything go. Has to have her say. Has to make snippy confrontational comments to anyone and everyone who displeases her. She is a lovely lovely person. But I find the constant sniping quite wearing. It causes so much bad feeling. Obviously she has fallen out with many friends and family members over the years and has multiple people she doesn’t speak to anymore. I think that’s not uncommon with autistic people. My dad is the same. Just can’t let things be. Has to say their piece. Unwavering belief they are correct. I think this is great if you’re someone like Greta Thunberg. Unwavering. Resolute. On an important mission. It is less good day to day. And difficult in a marriage.

Last time we went out for the day she fell out with another passenger on the train home and ended up loudly calling him a c*nt. This did not go down well. It was all very avoidable. Fairly typical behaviour.

This time I observed. And I realised it’s not so much that she’s looking for conflict. Which is what I’d always thought. It’s more that life (the sensory experiences, human interactions) are just really hard for her. I realised all of these minor day to day interactions that most of us navigate without too much thought, are just a challenge for her, all the time: She doesn’t agree with people. She doesn’t understand why they don’t agree with her. She can’t accept things. She needs to attribute blame. Ensure she defends herself. It’s constant. It looked exhausting.

Walking along if people came too close to her, she would comment and admonish them angrily. If there was confusion in a queue/not queue about who was next, she would have a strong opinion and ensure it was heard. If someone muttered under their breath, instead of just letting it go, she would of course have to react and snap loudly at them. If someone was doing something on the train she didn’t like, she would tell them so, or comment very loudly to ensure they heard. In shops if they didn’t have something in her size, she would express her disappointment most forcefully on repeat and question the retail assistant about stock management….. it’s like this all the time. I realised it isn’t because she desires conflict. It’s because she is genuinely struggling. Everything must feel like an attack on her way of thinking, on her view of the world, on her physical space, on her opinions. Everyone is basically attacking her, albeit impersonally, in some way all of the time. It must be exhausting.

It helped me a lot. I found that instead of inwardly rolling my eyes and thinking FFS here we bloody go again!! I felt sorry for her, realising how difficult it must be to feel like at any moment someone or something is going to “attack” her. She reacts the way she does because she is protecting herself. Life must be hard to live that way. Not being able accept that random shit goes wrong. People behave in ways she doesn’t like or understand. Stuff just is. No rhyme or reason. It is an assault, all the time. I wondered if it would help marital harmony if her spouse could view it that way instead. I know they also take the view that she seeks conflict with everyone all the time and they find it exasperating. I wonder if they changed it from “always seeking conflict” to “finding everything is an assault” whether this would help. Or is it just excusing bad behaviour? Swapping them from aggressor to role of victim. Is that excusing it, or understanding it?

@BustyLaRoux such an interesting observation there which hit a nerve for me. My ex DP was like this, and I found it a bit triggering because my previous partner to him wasn't ND but was a generally angry/walk on eggshells type. So if we went out and someone didn't say thank you, he'd be like 'f& you then' and causing a fight.

My ND ex would be ok with that stuff but unfortunately a bit on edge, say if kids nearby were screaming, that would annoy him to the point of saying something rude. And I know very confrontational before he met me. It was almost like life kept him on an edge so I was more tolerant of that.

Both situations very comparable.

I think for me there is grief about 'letting go' of the neurodiverse person. Because I knew them first as a 7 year old, I think there was stuff about maturing being later. They were struggling with lots of adolescent behaviour well into their twenties. But in the thirties they seemed calmer and better adjusted, and as we didn't see so much each other, things seemed pretty okay. But a major transition - eg parenthood - has upset things.

I think I may manage a more disengaged and superficially friendly/polite relationship in the months/years to come. But there's a feeling of loss. Yet giving up seems better than fighting a useless battle.

That is an interesting and insightful way of looking at your friend and her behaviour @BustyLaRoux . I think you are on to something there with the aggression coming from feeling under attack, so it's more of a defensive action that comes across as aggressive. Interesting!

My late MIL described H as 'moody' to my DM, a good word to describe him actually. He acts as if the world is out to get him and everything is an annoyance, a fight to be faught or a personal assault on him. It's exhausting to be around!

It’s really hard to split them apart. The experience is that someone creates conflict a lot of the time. It is really wearing. It isn’t nice to be on the receiving end of. Even if you change your mindset about WHY this is happening, the end result remains the same. Or does it?

It was like a lightbulb moment for me that made me less exasperated and a whole lot more understanding. This person doesn’t seek conflict or enjoy conflict per se. But they are very accustomed to it. I avoid it. They accept it as part of everyday life. They actually do find it quite upsetting. They’ll go over and over an incident, reassuring themselves they were in the right and had no choice, etc etc. Other people will see it differently: “who cares? Of course there was a choice.” Etc. But for them there was no choice. They can only react in one way. By defending against the attack. That’s what they’re conditioned to do. They don’t see what everyone else sees: a person who seeks conflict, a person who creates bad feeling….for them the “conflict” has already happened. And it was being done TO them.

When I say conflict, I don’t mean that literally necessarily. It might be that someone walked too close to them or, god forbid, accidentally knocked into them slightly. Me (most people?) shrug it off, move out the way. Conflict avoided. Her? They have confronted her already and now she needs to defend against the attack: so she will shoulder barge them as they come too close or shout “hey!” at them. You or I might think “for goodness sake, why not just move out the way or let it go?!” But for her she feels attacked. Whereas I see that passer by’s behaviour as mildly irritating and not worth fretting about/probably an accident, for her it’s important because everything matters and she feels constantly under attack in some way.

It really changed my view of her behaviour and I found a patience I didn’t have before.

It must be so hard to live like this, thinking everything and everyone is against you. Why are they like this? Are they just wired to experience everything as an attack on them? Can they not see anything as accidental?