Sister has just had a hard birth, and I am glad

[Blueskythinker]

I know I am a dreadful person. I am one of the ones who has a toxic sister. Without going into the details, she was really abusive to me when I had just had my DD, 3 years ago. She has spent the time since then slagging me off to anyone who will listen, I have spent it waiting for an apology.

She gave birth 2 days ago to her first child, prematurely, and had an emergency C section. Everyone else in my family is saying 'Oh poor XXX, what a hard time'. I just try to look neutral, but actually, I am glad she had a horrible time. The sad bitter part of me thinks that she will perhaps start to understand how difficult it is being a new mum, and she will maybe rethink her abusive behaviour towards me.

At what point do the people with toxic siblings become toxic themselves?

Mrs TH, I really am humbled, reading your post. I never thought that my mean feelings would lead me to reading (and seriously considering) about forgiveness. I don't want this to sound as dismissive as I am sure it probably will, but I always thought that the concept of forgiveness was only for Christians, (which I am, plainly, not).

I will follow your link. Ultimately I realise that this is about controlling my feelings towards the situation, as I am cetain that my sister will never accept responsibility for her actions.

Thank you everyone.

Mrs Th

I totally understand this stance and really try to embrace it.

However, as soon as I start to involve myself in one of my siblings lives thigns break down - therefore although I can forgive them, I know that we are nt good for each other

Anorak "I don't understand why people are so obsessed with forgiveness and being nice to people who are shitty to you" - I'm with you Anorak (and custardo too)

My father hasn't seen me in 10 years and has never seen my DS. I don't forgive him for that and I'm not nice to him. I have however made clear to him that I am prepared for a raprochement if he can sustain enough effort to stay in contact with me long enough for us to actually arrange a meeting. No real rsponse to that, other than complaints to other family members about how badly I am treating him.

However I have learnt not to be bitter about it and I'm afraid that may be the best that you can hope for Blueskythinker. other posters might feel that you have to go the extra mile with family and I wouldn't disagree but not necesasrily on bended bleeding knees!

I have had uncharitable thoughts about my father and I'm not particularly proud of myself but I'm human and when someone treats me like shit I can't help feeling a bit smug when they go though a hard times themselves. I wouldn't wish it on him but I'm not Mother Teresa.

Feel however you feel but try to behave in a way that you won't feel lets you down. Send a present and card if you feel thast what you want to do, but do it because you want to not because you think she will appreciate it or change towards you.

In my experience you can move on and learn not to be bitter without having to "forgive" the other person for behaving badly.

'Being glad' about her bad experience won't do her any harm and if it eases your feeling a little that's a good thing.

She sounds immature and selfish. But people often are less than perfect. Up to you if you think the relationship is important enough to keep trying with. I am lucky in that I don't know any 'toxic' people so I can't give much of an opinion but I think I'd want to keep away as much as possible. And you can only forgive someone who wants to be forgiven.

Well I left the present & card on the doorstep. We'll see if there is any response or acknowledgement, but I doubt it.

Actually, I spent the day with one of my other siblings today, and I had forgotten that XXX had had a huge falling out with her & my Mum about four years ago - XXX ranted to me for the best part of a year about what a bitch my other sis had been to her. Eventually my sis apologised to her (even though she maintains she did nothing wrong, and it was XXX who had behaved atrociously), just to get things sorted out and to stop the nastiness.

I wonder if she has a genuine problem relating to other people and interpreting their actions towards her. She does seem to have massive fallings out with quite a lot of people. Either she has a problem with her perception of situations, or she is being disingenuous.

Certainly some of the stories which have made their way back to me, of her account of my 'dreadful' behaviour bears no resemblance to my recollection of things. I try not to listen to these 2nd hand stories though, because it just makes me angry, and I feel drawn into making rebuttals. I have tried my best to maintain a dignified silence, but it is difficult, especially as I know that family & everyone else are getting one (very distorted) side of the story. TBH I think this may be one of the reasons why I still feel so much anger, because I have kept everything bottled up.

bluesky, well done for giving the present.

If I were you I would keep my distance and not actively encourage any sort of relationship with her.
She does sound very disturbed and is displaying schizophrenic behaviour. Has she ever been medically assessed?

Bluesky, well done. You've done the bravest thing by showing your sis that you're willing to talk. I'm sure you know already that it may be a long and arduous path. I hope you also understand that it may end with you having to walk away from her, but that the main thing here is making sure your heart is not weighed down with bitterness and rage.

Your sister does sound pretty messed up, and I hope it gives you some reassurance to know you're not the only one on the receiving end of this. I hope that if you are able to start to forgive her that you will also start to feel sorry for her for being in such a sorry state (and for being married to such a dickhead!). But this all takes time and it's really important for you to be firm about your boundaries and show her (lovingly, but firmly) that you will let the past go but will not stand for her toxic behaviour in future.

As for your having bottled things up, what do you think would be the best thing now? Do you feel that you'd like to confide in a trusted family member about what's been going on? Do you feel that this might complicate things more, given your mother's role in the whole situation? Just as you've remembered with sis 2, you may possibly find that your sister's reputation in the family is less than peachy and that everyone else was keeping this to themselves too. It's even possible that she's been nasty to other people who haven't said anything but feel the same way you do. You might find that your family haven't taken sis 1's stories quite as seriously as you think.

I do agree with the people who say that sometimes you have to let go of a relationship, and I believe I mentioned this in an earlier posting. But I vehemently disagree with those who say that bitterness doesn't affect you. I have seen far too many people in my life who are clearly heavily weighed down by unforgiveness - and are so used to this weight that they don't realise it's there. It would be so much easier if life didn't affect us like that, but likewise it would be much easier if we could eat whatever we wanted without it affecting our physical health. What we allow into our bodies will affect our bodies; and what we allow into our minds will affect our minds.

As for only being able to forgive someone who wants to be forgiven, again that's not the way it works - forgiveness is about letting go of your feelings of hurt and wanting revenge, etc, in order that you can move on. The next step (in an ideal situation) is where you involve the person who has hurt you, but this step is separate from the main act of forgiveness and the two should not be confused.

I just wanted to clarify "I vehemently disagree with those who say that bitterness doesn't affect you" - I don't know if you were including my posts in that because I didn't say that and don't believe that. Bitterness does affect you profoundly - my point was that you didn't need to forgive a person to be able to move on wihtout bitterness.

You can accept that a person behaved shabbily towards you and that they are not a nice person wihtout carried that forward into the future. I accept that my father is a fuckwit and incapable of dealing with the fall-out of the mess he created. I don;t feel bitter about it now, I accept that his personality is shallow and selfish and that dictated his actions. If he chose to have a relationship going forward then I would have one. I don't forgive him for not caring enough to ring anyone to find out whether my cancer biopsy was positive or negative - it was a shitty way to treat your child and not deserving of forgiveness.

Bluesky- FWIW and in answer to your OP You are not toxic.

I think the acid test for toxic people is the inability to be insightful and to look at and address their own behaviours and modify them if need be. Especially when they are the cause of hurt and upset to others.

The reason they lack the ability to reflect on the impact of their actions on others is they simply see 'all' others in 2d only.
Your sister simply doesnt see 'YOU'.

In other words it is 'all' about them.

From what you have said I cant imagine your sister (after leaving your property in a state and telling you do go F* yourself), would have been self reflective with regard to her actions. The fact she then proceeded to offload her own responsibility for those actions by blaming you (another toxic trait) is yet another indication of this.

You on the other hand DO have insight. Reflected by your urge to discuss your own negative thoughts openly.

I think the key is to be true to 'YOURSELF'. You must do what is in your heart. If you dont wish to have a relationship with this woman you dont have to. It would be wrong to deny your own feelings in lieu of hers.

Good luck with your decisions on this and the way forward that is the right for you.

Kew, you're right - I wasn't referring to your posting, it was OrmIrian who indicated that she/ he thought it was harmless. In fact I agree with what you said about how your actions may not necessarily change the person who's been shitty towards you.

Which brings me on to your father. My goodness. I don't know what to say. It's incredible that after everything he's done to you, you still feel that you could accept some level of relationship with him if he asked. I'm interested to know why?

Also you said that your father's behaviour towards your ill health (and I do hope you're now recovering well) was not deserving of forgiveness. How do you define what is and isn't deserving of forgiveness? (By the way, that's a genuinely open question - I'm not trying to set some kind of sneaky trap!)

Totally sympathise with you Bluesky - it sounds like your sister is a nightmare. I agree with all the posts made by 'Anorak'.

Regarding the family all feeling your sister has had a terrible time. How terrible really?
My dd was born 10 weeks premature after an emergency section. Apart from the oxygen mask being clamped rather roughly on my face ( I get claustrophobic), it was not that much of an ordeal.Recovery was a breeze as the baby was cared for ( whereas a section for a full-term baby is far more difficult to recover from). If the baby is well ( and I didn't see anything in your post to suggest that the baby is struggling) then all should be fine. SCBU units can be very welcoming and supportive places and prepare a new parent extremely well for when they get the baby home ( far more than in a 'normal' birth). Perhaps in any conversations with your family it might be worth pointing out that it is not all doom and gloom.

MrsTH - its interesting isn't it what crap we will put up with (the cancer story was a tiny example of a range of behaviour but for most people the most shocking one). I would consider having some kind of relationship with him for two reasons:

1 - my DS only has my mother as a grandparent and I do feel guilty that my father has no relationship with him, family is important to me and I'd like DS to be as surrounded by as much family as possible. I doubt my Dad will live long enough to disillusion him in the way he has me and tbh their relationship would be on a much more casual basis.

2 - there is a part of me that wants the father I used to have back. He wasn't always like this, it started when he left my mum 10 years ago and met a new partner who he now lives with. Whilst I have sort of accepted that he really isn't the same person that he was (or maybe that I thought he was), I think perhaps I can't quite let go of the "old" Dad.

I think there's also a part of me that thinks if I can have a casual relationship with him then it will be proof (to myself) that I have come to terms with what he did and have moved on. The trouble is, I think its hard to deal with someone so close to you letting you down so badly. I think maybe you have to accept that and just move on anyway.

What is worthy of forgiveness and what isn't? I think this is a personal thing what is forgiveable to one person may not be to another. To me its the fact that some of what he did was in cold blood (as it were) not during the early days of the trauma of splitting up with my mum for example.

I was very close to my father before he left my mum and I found it very painful that he left without telling me, with no way of contacting him. I found it even more painful that he gave my brother and sister his address after about a year but not me. But I could have forgiven that - although it was his choice to leave my mum and he handled it appallingly (left for work one day and just didn't come home, leaving my sister a message on her answer-phone telling her he'd left instead) it was obviously a very painful thing for him to do and he was very stressed by it. I can forgive him behaving selfishly, I can accept it was more difficult for him to deal with me because he was closer to me and knew I would have been incredibly hurt by his actions.

What I find impossible to forgive is that he has sustained this kind of behaviour for 10 years - I tried on various occasions to hold out an olive branch, eg sent him a letter telling him about DS's adoption with no response. Ultimately the reason that he hasn't made more of an effeort is that he knows it will be awkward and embarassing for him to face me after so long and sadly he is more concerned with how he feels than how I feel. He would rather not be a part of my life than go through an awkward meeting or two before things smooth over.

I find that unforgiveable. Maybe others wouldn't.

Kewcumber - we have quite a lot in common (and I don't mean my sister - my Dad has distanced himself from his children, and despite many attempts to have a meaningful relationship with him on my part, he has decided to 'take a break from his family' huh!)

It sounds like you have been through a horrible time - he could have dealt with things so much better (like a man so to speak), and it must be frustrating to feel that you are being punished for something which you haven't done. I hope there are no serious issues with the cancer biopsy.

The fact is, is that even though my dad is the way he is, and it upsets me, I have come to terms with it, and accept that that is just the way he is. There have been other family issues, with hurt and trauma, which again, I have (eventually) come to accept (I think it's fair to say my family is pretty disfunctional)- so it is not that I am incapable of moving on / forgiveness. I just find that this particular scenario really hard to deal with - My sister displayed such venom and vitriol towards me, and has compounded the issue by taking every opportunity to claim how badly I treated her, and has told outright lies (told everyone that she phoned me & tried to apologise, but that I was abusive towards her - lucky her, off the hook again!). As one poster said, how do you deal with someone who doesn't think they have done anything wrong, and doesn't want to be forgiven?

Hi Blueskythinker

I'm not going to judge you or make disapproving remarks about what you've said. I can totally understand how you feel. There is absolutely nothing unnatural about wishing bad things on those who have trated us badly and caused us pain.

I have several toxic members of my family. Chief among whom at the moment is one very toxic sister - so I can empathise with you.

I also had a toxic father who is dead now. I never had the chance to resolve anything with him before he died and do you know what? - rather than regretting that, I'm just happy that he's out of my life for good. I won't waste time greiving for a person who never cared for me when he was alive.

People can quote all sorts of cliches and old adages but there is no truer one than this:

"You can choose your friends but you can't choose your family"

I don't subscribe to the view that you should forgive family members anything just because they are that - family.

Do what I've done; surround yourself with people you do love, cherish and value and who feel the same about you. A good many of the dearest people to me in my life are not related to me at all.

I've cut out the toxic relatives who are a totally negative force in my life. Instead of trying to resolve whatever "issues" they have I've decided to move on without these people. They're like emotional millstones around my neck if I give them the chance to be and I feel life is far too short to waste time on them.

I won't tolerate being treated like shit by my sister. Nothing gives her the right to treat me as she does. If I have to live the rest of my life without her in it, so be it. She isn't fit to lick the boots of some of the friends I have.

Blueskythinker im a great believer in 'you reap what you sow' , your sister was a complete cow and she got her just deserts . But that should be the end of it now. I would hazard a guess that you are quite successfull and she isnt ,so she harbours resentment about this however irrational . If i were you I would take a deep breath , send the present and card with a note saying you were so upset to hear she had such a horrendous time and you vividly remeber how difficult it was as a new mum ,so if there is anything you can do to help ,give me a ring ,Ok it might be a total lie but you never know motherhood does strange things to people and she might become a really nice person

You don't sound toxic, BST - I doubt toxic people feel shame for their nasty behaviour and feelings. I do understand where you are coming from, had a similar thing happen with my SIL. You just want them to understand you a bit better, in the hopes that their unpleasant behaviour will be modified in the light of their own experience.

It was kind of you to give her a present too. I would say you aren't toxic, and are trying to do the right thing - all you ask is the same treatment from your sister. Nothing wrong with that.

Kewcumber, from what you've said about your father I think you have an absolutely enormous heart. We kind of hope, don't we, that our parents, being older and more experienced in life, will go through life with a certain amount of maturity and wisdom. Your father appears to have been elsewhere when mature wisdom was being handed out, or perhaps he swapped it for his life with his 'new' partner!

I am amazed and impressed that you can find the strength and will to forgive him for having shat on you and your whole family so badly. You are incredibly generous-hearted not to hold it against him that he didn't give you his contact details, and even to try and see his perspective. I sincerely doubt that most people would be strong enough to do that - and it requires gigantic amounts of strength.

You're right, it is the ideal to reach a place where you can say (to yourself, at least): You're no longer the kind of dad I would have wished for, but basically you're the dad I've got so I'm going to make the best of things. In a way all of us have to do that since no parent is perfect, but you've had a much, much bigger job of it than the average person. It's no wonder you seem to feel at the back (or front) of your mind that you've not quite finished that - perhaps that's in part why you still hold on to that memory of what he used to be like.

I daresay that even if your father and son were to develop a strong relationship, you will be there as a buffer to ensure that your son is protected from serious emotional harm. My family problems were nothing like yours, but I became that 'buffer' for my younger bro as we were growing up.

Ultimately, you perhaps know that your father will never mature, and so will most likely never have the strength that you possess to look himself in the eye, let alone look you in the eye, and face up to what he has done. I'm big on forgiveness and I also believe that the other side of that coin is the perpetrator learning to take full responsibility for their actions - sadly, as you said earlier, you can lead a horse to water...

You have had a dreadful example of parenting from your father, yet you would never subject anyone to the same treatment. Likewise, no matter what past experiences may have made your father weak, immature and cowardly, his responsibility as an adult, a father and a grandfather is to face up to his weaknesses, admit his failings, and bloody well grow up.

thing is, how do you manage to cut a sibling out of your life? especially when you need them but they are never there? emotionally or physically?

what I mean is, hope do you successfully give up on them if you've spent years being let down by them but can't seem to stop yourself trying?

bump in the hope anyone answers

last try