Sister has just had a hard birth, and I am glad

[Blueskythinker]

I know I am a dreadful person. I am one of the ones who has a toxic sister. Without going into the details, she was really abusive to me when I had just had my DD, 3 years ago. She has spent the time since then slagging me off to anyone who will listen, I have spent it waiting for an apology.

She gave birth 2 days ago to her first child, prematurely, and had an emergency C section. Everyone else in my family is saying 'Oh poor XXX, what a hard time'. I just try to look neutral, but actually, I am glad she had a horrible time. The sad bitter part of me thinks that she will perhaps start to understand how difficult it is being a new mum, and she will maybe rethink her abusive behaviour towards me.

At what point do the people with toxic siblings become toxic themselves?

Returning to the OP... I think it's so, so true as Ally said below, that people who have not experienced real family dysfunction will say things like "you must forgive and try to have a relationship because they're family" - and that's a very valid thought of course - but those of us who have experienced it know that sometimes for your sanity it's not worth it. Toxic family members often rely on the fact that you will be expected to put up with them because they're family. But sometimes their behaviour just goes too far.

I've had a very difficult time with my sister though I'm glad to say things are slightly better at the moment - largely I think because I've withdrawn from being a mother figure to her as much as I can. OTOH, I've cut off contact with my dad completely (after similar toxicity) and I'm not sorry. Only you can decide how to proceed with this but I do want to say I know about feelings like what you describe and I think they're totally understandable. And I admire you for listening to these feelings and trying to understand them. To me that says you're not becoming "toxic" yourself. You have an understandable emotional reaction and you acknowledge it and assess it and ask for support, instead of channelling it into unacceptable behaviour. That's the adult thing to do IMO.

at spelling in that post, or lack thereof

Send the card and the present and then move on, you have made the gesture and the ballis in her court. It is sad when a parent encourages behaviour, DH's father is constantly bailing out his daughter icnluding the £25k loan that she and her husband took out by forging DH's signature which we were excpected to pay until we got a solicior involved.

My sister shat on me about once a year. I forgave her every time until four years ago when she tried her level best to split me and DH up and manipulated my vulnerable teenage DD too.

Life as been sooo much better since I cut the tie with her. You cannot chose your relatives but you can your friends.

Post your sister the card but leave it at that.

My sister and I had a terrible year, she was very unreasonable, her DH was more unreasonable, and I was little unreasonable. We clashed and clashed and I slagged her off, and she probably slagged me off.

Then the second she had her babies 12 weeks early, all the animosity was gone, and we realised how much we love each other. I wouldn't wish any bad on her, despite all the heartache of the last year, and she's become very protective of me.

Try to use it as an opportunity to come closer together. Discuss your experiences and allow the kids to be proper cousins.

I wouldn't change my sister or her babies for the world, and I'd be distraught if ANYTHING happened to them. I know she feels the same about me and mine.

On the other hand, your situation might be different, and at the end of the day, you and your baby come first. But don't bear bad feeling.

I won't apologise.

How nasty is it to be glad your own sister went through this. To be glad your sister suffered is bad enough but the poor baby. Enough said.

op - you have crossed a line a become toxic.your experiences and beliefs have impaired your empathic responses

maybe step back, reflect whether you want to be polluted by horrid thoughts and feelings and for how long?

either cease contact so the omnipotent toxic feelings don't grow, or pollute further

if you are toxic and she is toxic - does that not make you the same?

or find way of making a peace with her , albeit superficial and polite

dont know your circumstances only commenting on this post

Making "peace" with a toxic sibling as well can in many cases come back to haunt the peacemaker. Many toxic people can use a peace offering as yet another stick to beat the peacemaker with as ultiamtely the toxic person is not interested in making amends. They likely think as well they have done nothing wrong so no need to apologise.
People who have not survived a toxic family enviromnment or deeply divided family dysfunction can understandbly find this concept hard to fathom saying things like "forgive and forget", "she's your sister/mother" etc.

This whole situation that BlueSky talks about goes far deeper than expressing to her own self a sentiment about sister having a hard time at birth. I do not think though her sister will change her attitude because she is now a Mum herself.

It does not necessarily makes BlueSky toxic - far from it. She is herself someone who is finally realising she has herself come from a toxic family where sibling rivalries got out of hand because of the way it was handled by their parents. BlueSky has spent the last three years waiting for an apology from her sister. I think BlueSky will never get this apology because her sister likely feels she has done nothing wrong.

The only thing BlueSky can do is to help her own self (counselling can be helpful)and distance herself entirely from these people including her parents who have gone some considerable way as well to making her sister the person she is.

BlueSky - you write yourself that your own Mother encouraged her to act like this; she certainly did nothing to prevent this happening. BTW I would not let your Dad off the hook either as he did not curb his wife's actions. He was a bystander.

A friend of mine has a toxic sister. She suffered years of verbal, emotional and sometimes physical abuse. Now she has nothing to do with her.

Bluesky, if someone spoke to me and behaved towards me thew way your sister has to you then I would turn my back on them. family of not family.
Have some respect for yourself and don't be a doormat.

She's a shit and is playing the 'family' card to carry on behaving like a shit.

I bet she hasn't got many friends

Well, positive contrabution or not, she asked a Q & I answered it!

Some on here will know that I have a toxic mother, we haven't spoken for 16 years. She wished horrible things on me, did horrible things to me...

BUT in the end, I WOULD NOT wish a difficult pregnancy, nor traumatic birth, nor premature baby on her, nor anyone! And especially not after going through it myself!

Because that would make me as bad as her & regardless of what she has put me through, I am a better person than her until I start treating her & wishing on her awful circumstances.

I am not suggesting forgiveness, because I myself cannot forgive, but to be glad that her baby is here prematurely, under traumatic circumstances is, in my mind worse than her having left a rental preoperty in a mess!

The OP cannot I feel, bitch about her toxic sister after saying she is glad that her & her baby suffered during & after the birth!

on anyone

I wouldn't wish this kind of thing on anyone no, but if the woman is really that vile then perhaps she has her comeuppance.

If she really is that vile then the child is in a precarious position and I suspect that it will all go belly up.

to the OP
I have a very angry and venomous sister who has made me the scapegoat for every thing wrong in her home life.
I have spent 20 years endlessly offering olive branches, helping and supporting her. Everytime it results in a few weeks or months of 'normality' until she has a bad day and then I become the target for all her venom and frustration.
People are telling you to forgive or walk away. My experience is that there is a middle way. I have just emotionally disengaged from her. I can meet with her, exchange gifts but i have let go of my anger and upset and hurt and by doing that I have taken away her ability to hurt me. She may choose to send me a vicious email - i delete it. She may choose top phone me to spit fury at me - I hang up. I am cordial with her but as soon as she turns I just walk away.
As I am no longer responding she has gradually stopped attcking as it seems my reaction was the very thing she craved. Now she no longer gets it our relationship is low key and boring - which for us is much healthier.
It means there is no family split - no difficulty at family gatherings etc. I have actually quietly left a couple when she has started looking for a fight.
Mostly it has been great for me to take control of my feeling and regain some sense of control and some sense of dignity.
She hasn't changed but i have choosen not to give her the power to upset me.
You need to just accept that that is who she is. If she wants to respond civily to you then you can embrace it. If not just treat her with cutesy but no expectation of friendliness or kindness. Take away her ammunition and you can let go of your own anger.
to be wishing her and her baby ill health and misfortune is not a good thing for you. You can't let yourself be sullied by your own resentment to her. Or she has won - surely?

Standing up for OP!

Feelings like this are normal in some abused people. I have wished much much worse things on my own sister and mother. However acting on those feelings is not okay.

OP has done NO HARM to her sister. It is the other way round!

stately homes thread Talk out your feelings here...

surely there is a difference between wishing someone ill and hoping that they finally understand you? ("The sad bitter part of me thinks that she will perhaps start to understand how difficult it is being a new mum, and she will maybe rethink her abusive behaviour towards me. ")

I have a toxic sister who is about to give birth. I hope she has a perfect delivery and no troubles afterwards but i also hope that she finally understands me and my choices and sees how she has hurt me.

Like anorak said - if this had been a husband or friend would the responses have been the same? why do we let people treat us badly because we share a parent??

if i were you (and I will be in a couple of weeks) i would send the gift. though i'm doing it for my parents rather than my sister. I will keep up appearances for their sake. she;s not worht ruining my relationship with them.

I am Bluesky!! Picked up on this as people were offering me advice about my sister giving birth, didn't realise she was pregnant!

Very similar names ......... She's blueskythinker, please don't call her bluesky, that's me!!

send a card and maintain dignified no contact. obviously this is a fraught relationship. you need to protect yourself and not be drawn into any further potential altercations

try to distinguish her new baby from your sister an adult woman. that baby is neutral and a NB who has no history with you

Wow, I have been spending the day in the garden, not realising I was getting up people's noses! MN has deleted IE's messages, so I am afraid I am oblivious to what was said.

I haven't wished my sister (or her baby) ill, I just hope that she will now have an understanding of how awfully she behaved, at that particular time. If she had behaved in that way at any other time, I would have been severely pissed off, but this was only a few weeks after my DC was born, and I was physically very unwell, on top of the usual shock one is left with after having their 1st baby, so the whole circumstances were somewhat aggravated. Actually, the baby is doing fine, and was just over three weeks early. I suspect that the premature labour may have had more to do with my sister smoking throughout her pregnancy than any feelings I have towards her (ducks, for when any smokers read this!)

I know that my sister is pretty unlikely to have a change of view, she is the queen of denial and self justification. I did try to sort things out with her at one stage, but I said to her that part of any conciliation needed to involve her recognising the impact that her actions had on me - I got a predictable response.

I know that my feelings are wrong, and corrosive, but they are there nonetheless. For those who posted indignant replies - do you never have Bad Thoughts? If you don't, you are fortunate, and if you do, but find ways of dealing with them, I applaud you.

Bluesky - sorry you have been getting random messages - I hope they weren't too cross.

Atilla - My Dad isn't around.

All others: thanks for your comments - I clearly have some work to do.

you have not got up my nose imo, you are discussing a fraught situation and family well it pushes everyone's button. most of us have issues

you will evoke a range of answers re:family

I haven't read the whole thread but I agree with those who feel it's really important not to buy into vengeful downward spirals. It is tempting to do so sometimes, but is really destructive and bad for you, and yes toxic....rising above really is the only thing to do.

by hls - "There are two people in every relationship- and if you think your sister is "toxic" then that could not be so without YOU behaving in certain ways when you were younger, feeding or encouraging that toxicity. Even if you didn't know it or do it deliberately."

WTF????

she treats you like shit because you ask to be treated like shit?

what a load of shit.

Well I think there' a grain of truth in it SirDigby... the point being that we (well me anyway as an older sister) might have an overdeveloped sense of responsibility that gives a toxic family member the green light to act out on us. It's very hard to learn not to give them that unwitting encouragement - and one reason for that is the huge pressure to put up with and/or support people because "they're family".

The way that bit you quoted was phrased was a bit harsh. But the fact is you generally do have to change your own behaviour in order to put a stop to stuff like this. You have to stop being the punchball that someone like that can use. It's hard to do because you have to get tough and that makes you look like a bastard. I have so been there.

I'd like to explain something about what forgiveness means, as quite a few people on this thread seem to misunderstand the concept.

It does NOT meant that you let the perpetrator off and then lay down on the floor for them to do it to you again and again.

It is a constructive, painful and immensely challenging way of choosing not to let the toxicity and resentment of the situation tar and imprison your own heart. In other words, by remaining resentful (resent means "feeling it again and again" - we've all done that, haven't we? and we've all felt the burning anger of resentment inside, right?) we allow ourselves to be gradually controlled and overtaken by those burning feelings. Can you honestly say that resenting a person or a situation makes you feel more peaceful? Letting go of those burning feelings is choosing to forgive.

It is also a disciplined and firm way of saying "I will not be controlled by this situation or by you. I will not allow your past actions to continue to impact my life, and I will not entertain your present and future negative actions." Forgiveness without taking this stand for oneself does not bring effective change, because if we let people walk all over us and keep on forgiving and letting them crap on us, it only lands us back where we started.