AIBU to think that most relationships will end with an OVERLAP with a new relationship.

[morningpaper]

I don't get this thing on MN whereby married people are expected to end marriages before embarking on other relationships.

This idea of people (except you always mean 'woman' ) being "slappers" if they enter relationships with married people makes me think lots of you have very little understanding of how relationships work.

• To be blunt, I would be FAR more upset if DH left me for a lonely life as a single person in a bedsit than for a new relationship. I think the former is FAR more insulting. I have a close friend whose husband did this and it was MORTIFYING every time people said "Oh darlng, was there someone else?" and she had to say "No" (unspoken message: 'I am just too horrific to live with').

• People need support when they end relationships - and that support often comes from a new relationship.

• If people ended every marriage at the first sniff of new romance, or at the first feelings of dissatisfaction, then none of our relationships would last more than a year or two! It is often a new relationship that gives people the impetus to re-evaluate their lives.

• Most relationships become very "stale" after a certain amount of time - society tells us we must WORK at our relationships after the desire has gone, but WHY? Why not just accept that our partners or ourselves might be MORE happy in a new relationships - we have changed and grown, after all.

I have several friends in relationships with married people - and I expect a lot of you do, too, but they probably don't tell you because you are so HORRIFIED at the idea. Such relationships generally end in a lot of DESPAIR but they are part of life.

When you talk about "ending relationships before starting new ones" it sounds to me just like people who talk about not having sex before marriage - a great ideal (perhaps), but not realistic for 99% of people.

UQD - Very good post from you.

My best friend is probably a serial offender on the affair side. She is totally unable to end one relationship until she has another to walk straight into. And if the new relationship does not pan out, she is straight back to her ex, and stay with him while she is looking for a new man. Of course he doesnt know this, she never let her partners know there is someone else. She has also quite happily been the other woman for a good number of years, while at the same time looking for mr right.

I am not condoning her behaviour, I think it is very wrong, from my perspective, but without somebody else on the scene, she is unable to end a relationship. People are like this for many reasons. I am not coming down to hard on her for this, as I know her, I know her past, I supported her through years of abuse until she got the guts to end it, after she met somebody else. This set a pattern, it cushioned her from the heartbreak of a breakup, as her heart and her emotions were safely parked elsewhere. This is the only way some people cope, this is the only way some people can muster to get out of a relationship that to them is damaging, but not everybody can see this.

I think many people are a bit scared of going it alone. Think about it. Most people live with their parents until they move in with a partner. Some have never lived alone. There is a deafening silence from the company of nobody.

i always thought if my marriage ended i would prefer to spend time being on my own rather than jump straight into a new relationship. but how does anybody know whats going to happen today, tomorrow or next week. you cant plan when you are going to meet someone that you end up falling in love with.
yeah ok you can be attracted to people for different reasons, that doesnt mean you are going to embark on an affair with all of them. but when you meet someone you connect with so deeply how do you stop that. morally yes you should, but sometimes it not as simple as saying no. i dont think its as easy as saying you shouldnt put yourself in the position in the first place.

Have only read the OP, so sorry if i am repeating other posters here!

But i totally DISAGREE with the OP, i think it takes a strong person who can end a relationship without having to have someone new to fall back on.
Myself included.
I asked my ex to leave, and it only took him 2 months to move in with someone new and get her pregnant. i think this is pathetic.
i feel i am the stronger person, i have refused the advances of several men who really like me on the grounds that i need time on my own before i even consider a new relationship.

People who jump ship into the arms of someone new (ie my sister, and my ex) are very insecure imo.

I have overlapped ALL my relationships - I don't think I'm insecure, I actually rather like being on my own and have lived on my own with no problems. That's just been the way it has been.

OrmIrian, I am with you, I don't see how I could ever fit an affair into my life, absolutely no chance.

But mp then you have never actually been alone, have you, if you say you overlapped all your relationships?

Ormian, you need to incorporate it into your jog: jog to a remote beauty spot, meet your lover, have a quick embrace, jog back home

It's the best I can come up with

No emkana I had a BRIEF period of being 'single' I suppose when DHdejour and I 'parted' when he left his wife.

So I was technically not in a relationship but I had rather a lot of very lovely lovers and it was very pleasant. I don't know if that counts. And I got back with DH, as it happens, a few months later when he had sorted his life out.

Apart from that I've been in a long stream of serious relationships since I was 12

morningpaper - if you like being on your own so much, then why start the new relationship?
because it sounds like you are scared to not have a partner...

Btw I was just thinking of what you wrote your dh said yesterday, mp:

"There is nothing worse than feeling you are someone's One True Love."

Am I alone in feeling that I am very very happy to hear dh say I'm the only one for him?

No I don't think I'm scared of not having a partner allgonebellyup

I've just always been VERY LUCKY in that I've had rather a lot of nice friends

Also I have a mix of being wildly romantic with very low standards (that what DH says anyway )

Although I said I'd parp I'm drawn back to this. With the exception of dh (and technically he was the one coming out of a relationship), I have alwyas had loooooong gaps between relationships. In fact, dh says that one of the reasons for some of the issues we have had over the years was that I had got too used to being on my own.

I don't think it is possibel to make a blanket statement that people get involved, sometimes messily, just because they need to be with someone, anyone.

It's an idea mp. But I tend to smell so vile after a few miles (especially when it's hot) that I'd be lucky to keep any lover interested for long. Unless he had no sense of smell. Or was a stinky old tramp. Or v odd.

I don't think humans are designed to be solitary; we are naturally sociable. I agree marriage and wedding cake are social constructs, but pairing off and procreating is a biological imperative. You only need look to nature to see that some species are naturally monogamous. Unlike Madamez, rooks tend not to read the Guardian.

I think macdoodle has it exactly, those of us who would try our hardest to never be the OH have "empathy" (I often get upset by things other people are going through) those who just see it as "life" to pursue who they want regardless of how that will effect any children in the equation, and definately regardless of the fact that he is committed to someone else are more animalistic/selfish and just go for what they want based on the hormones they are feeling at the time.

To an extent I see where madamz is coming from but by getting married someone is committing to monogomy - we discussed whether we wanted children or not before we committed to marry, if someone changes their mind and it becomes and issue then it IS time to move on really isnt it?

I have certainly been in a supposedly monogomous relationship (not marriage thank god) with a man who should NEVER agree to commit himself to one woman - but you see he was so insecure he needed to feel someone "loved" him, he also needed to feel other women "wanted" him and I dare say he has made a lot of women very unhappy. If he were any kind of man he would say "you know what im never going to be faithful so why dont I just play the field and not have a live in partner" but at the end of the day he wants someone who loves him to go home to.

I do kind of feel that those of us who are in it for the long haul if possible are more realistic, you know its not always going to be romantic, sometimes we will annoy each other but as long as the good times outnumber the bad then its worth continuing. If at any time we get to the point where we make each other and the children unhappy then we would just have to call it a day - but I wouldnt need to line up the nearest available man to fall back on (not saying I dont know one who is lovely) but im a big enough girl to not need that crutch for my ego.

Would I want him to stay with me out of a sense of duty if he didnt want to HELL NO, even if it broke my heart to split up I would rather be alone that with someone who didnt want to be with me.

Arent the people who move from one relationship to another in the search of the thrill of "romance" the ones who are fooling themselves because "romance" is just the cocktail of chemicals which happen at the start of a relationship - I think real love takes longer to develop.

What about...meeting someone else and realising you have strong feelings for them, but not actually shagging them until you have ended your current relationship?

I can totally understand how people can meet someone else if their current relationship has gone a bit stale, but the thought of shagging behind your partner's back makes me feel a bit ick.

I mean, if the sex was crap, would you just think, "phew, thank god I didn't leave dh" ?

I'm with expat on the decency and courtesy side, fwiw.

And usually, when things feel a bit stale, it's a sign that Effort needs to be Made, and you can turn things around again with work. Peaks and troughs.

WW I think, again, you are merely taking refuge in the idea that there are "nice people with empathy" (i.e. you) and there are "selfish people" (aka slappers).

This is a false dichotomy. Everyone who gets involved with overlapping relationships can't be selfish and wicked, because this how vast amounts of relationships start.

It is actually quite UNUSUAL IME for one truly single person to meet another truly single person and then fall in love and start a relationship - especially as you get on a bit in life!

People who do not fit into this pattern are not all "selfish" and "animalistic".

i dont think its that unusual for a single person to meet a single person

im single and my bf is single

and we both were when we met

and i am getting on lol

he is even single in the never lived with a woman sense

I agree with MP that you can't make a blamket statement about people with empathy not getting involved.

I actually have an over developed sense of empathy - it gets me into all sorts of problems in both my personal and professional life (linked to strong sense of ethics - doing the "right" thing) and even means that I find it upsetting watching a lot of comedies (Laurel and Hardy upset me 'cos it's not fair what happens to them ).

I still ended up technically overlapping then end of dh's last relationship.

Thinking about my best friend (my guru in terms of both her strong marriage - 20 years and counting - and they she and her dh raise their kids), I would also have described her as serially mongomous - yet every one of her relationships overlapped.

MP-'This is a false dichotomy. Everyone who gets involved with overlapping relationships can't be selfish and wicked, because this how vast amounts of relationships start.'

how do you know this is how vast amounts of relationships start?all of my friends were single when they met their single oh's.the only overlapper i know is my sister(who has now been with the same man for 12 years but neither of them were single when they met).i dont think that vast amounts of relationships overlap.maybe i dont know many people like that as i choose not to associate with people who behave in ways i would find unacceptable.

I still brew over unkind things I did years ago - unimportant things that everyone else have almost certainly forgotten.

I was in a situation years ago where someone I had a connection with moved away...when we knew each other initally I had come out of a bad relationship and was just not willing to get involved...when he came back the draw was still there but he was married and even though I was alone and I really liked him I just chose not to go there, I just couldnt live with myself if I selfishly did something like chase another womans husband

I agree in an ideal world everyone would be single when they met and in some circumstances you meet the love of your life etc. etc. What I cannot understand is how you can make a habit of getting involved with someone who is committed to someone else and have no empathy for the pain you cause his wife, no guilt for the fact that you have behaved badly and all for something which ultimately for you is going to be transitory until the next big romance comes along. You merrily tell yourself that he is the only one in the wrong but really its 50% is you perhaps he thinks he would like an affair and if you werent available legs akimbo he may have thought twice about it and gone on to make his marriage work. If his marriage wasnt going to work then if you didtn become the OW it would be someone else (as in the case of my ex) in which case doesnt make you that special either does it?

The woman macdoodle was talking about pursued her husband even when he said he wanted to make his marriage work, sorry that is really pathetic, how little respect must the OW have for herself really.

Perhaps it has something to do with my upbringing - we were always taught right from wrong, I just couldnt live with myself if that was how I behaved (sorry)

DH & I Single, as were brother and wife, sister and husband, bestfriend and partner, hubbies best friend and partner etc. etc. not difficult to live your life and not habitually be the cuckoo in someone elses nest

With regard to the use of derogatory words to describe the OW - im sure plenty of words are used to describe the man too.

I really must do some work now.

By MP 'I have a mix of being wildly romantic with very low standards '

I love that

Most marriages I know that have ended have been due to affairs, alot of relatioships that I and my friends had before marriage would overlap.

It happens alot.

I think many of you are talking about the ideal wheras MP is talking about the reality.

Of course everyone should take others feeling into account and it's much more honourable to finish one realtiosnhip before starting another, but for many reasons that is OFTEN not the case.

People who have affairs are not some morally corrupt subset, they are normal peopel who are often suprised by their own actions in finding themselves doing something they belive to be wrong yet are pursuing it anyway.

I respect MP's pragmatism and would wager my house on her marriage lasting over those of you who say 'we are the only ones for each we have acheived the ideal perfect love'. The conversations she has with her Dh sound like conversations of people who've been there done that, thought it through, and with eyes wide open, and a realistic view of human nature, want to make sure that it will work for them this time.

Dittany: the Christian marriage ceremony does generally include references to having children yet people do marry with a mutually agreed intention to remain childfree (and then hit difficulties when one changes his/her mind). FWIW I agree with you that marriage (same with any contract) should not be entered into lightly and it's a shame that so many people marry because it's just 'what people do', because all their friends are doing it etc, and then find it doesn;t suit them. But Istill don't get the idea that a promise you make at, say, 21, shoulr bind you for life and not take into account the changes in people's attitudes, priorities and opinions over the years. I do actually think that renewable marriage contracts would be a very good idea.

And your remarks about swingers spreading STDs are just ignorant bigotry: while no social group is without its percentage of idiots, the majority of swingers are people who have thought about the issues surrounding sex and are careful and sensible with regard to condom use etc.