Frustrated with friend who is making the worst decisions

[Jazzjazzjazz]

I really just want to share this to see if there’s anything else I can do here. My friend is a single parent, she’s always been a great mother and her child was her world. Last year she met a guy, and he’s completely destroyed her world. A couple of months ago it all came to a head, and she just isn’t listening to reason. She’s not a young mother and she has a good career! The guy is jobless and moved himself in pretty quickly. He’s a drug user and he is always falsely accusing her of things and treating her like crap, and then suddenly they are loves young dream again. Since she met him she’s let her house go, it’s a tip, and I’ve been helping her sort it out because she would make excuses for me to not go round and for us to meet elsewhere so I got suspicious and since then, have been helping her get things in order.

ok so I don’t want you to think I’m looking down on my friend, I’ve been in an abusive relationship myself, but at that time I was a single woman, without kids. I’m upset about this next part, this is what is crushing me. Her ex husband was recently contacted by a mutual friend of theres, who told him enough to make him come over to her house, forcibly remove the child, and he will not give her daughter back to her. Prior to this I didn’t realise her new boyfriend is a drug user, or the extent of his abusive behaviours, I just thought he was a bit of a user and didn't trust him.

The thing is, my friend is more focused on appeasing and “sorting things out” with her boyfriend, than she is on getting her child back! I feel like I don’t know her anymore. She’s ringing me for hours and it’s all about him getting the help he needs and how he’s texting saying he needs her support (she kicked him out) I told her- screw him- keep him far away from this situation, now that social services are involved, you’ll never have custody of your daughter again if you move him back in. He’s manipulating her to live back in and doesn’t seem to care less that he has been a big contributor to her losing her daughter. I just hate this guy so bloody much, I don’t want to listen to her anymore rambling on about his good qualities and how he’s not all bad, it’s like- your daughter is gone!!!! I’ve told her she has a good job, doesn’t take drugs, and she should get her home in order and get her child back, and tell them this guy isn’t even in the picture anymore so there is no safeguarding issue but she seems too thick to understand any of this. I said if she wants to date him (makes me sick to even say it) see him every weekend when her daughter is with her dad, and assure social services that he will never be anywhere near her daughter and she won’t be seeing him in the week. Nope it’s not going in at all. I called her ex with her permission, and he is fully willing to cooperate with coparenting if she just doesn’t have this guy around the daughter. I really don’t want to walk away from a friend in need and I love her but why am I feeling so tearful, resentful, angry, and pissed off whenever she goes on about his stupid guy. Why has this not been the wake up call she needs! I 100% think despite all I’ve said, she’s going to move him back in because he’s been manipulating her so much and she keeps saying “if he moves back in he’ll have to to abc” and I just want to hang up the phone. Her energy should all be going towards getting her daughter back, cleaning her home, talking to her ex- she’s ignored calls from her ex!!! I just don’t get her anymore. Anyone know of any services I can refer her to to help her understand what is at stake here and to help her become stronger because deep down she does know this guy is bad news!

I don’t think there’s much you can do sadly, except distance yourself a bit from having to listen to it, whilst staying in touch now and again incase she sees sense at some point!
my neighbour was offered tons of help with a situation like this, got her children back, only to let him back in again and again, until she lost the children completely..I felt sorry for the children being put through it all again. Sometimes you just need to step away, some people shouldn’t actually get their children back, I know you love your friend but her judgement and reaction to losing her child is shocking

OP your friends daughter is so fortunate enough to have a father who cares. So many men take their eye off the ball when they’re no longer with the mother of their child which I’ve never understood.

I don’t know if any of you remember this case but I recently watched a documentary about a woman who found herself single in her 30s after a long term relationship with the father of her two kids. During lockdown she suddenly moved a man in that she had just met.

I can’t remember if she was taking drugs or not but he was. He also had a criminal record for things like arson and assault if I remember correctly and had just been recently released from prison. He didn’t work or support her in any way and treated her terribly. Probation and courts etc were fully aware he lived with a woman who had children and yet I don’t think social services were alerted. Unfortunately in this situation the bio father didn’t seem bothered by it all so left the kids in that environment.

One night the two kids had their mate to stay for a sleepover and obviously their mums new criminal partner was there too.

Long story short at some point before the following morning he killed her, all three kids and also raped her tween daughter.

Her parents were on the documentary saying what an amazing mother she was but i beg to differ. Not only did she put herself at risk, she directly risked her children’s lives and also someone else’s child.

I wonder if her children’s friends family resent her? I’m sure if they had known his history they wouldn’t have allowed their kid to stay overnight. I bets it wasn’t the first kid who had stayed overnight with her too. She was extremely selfish just like many of these women are.

@Jazzjazzjazz when you speak of your friends drug of choice being men this really is a familiar story that I’ve seen play out time and time again. Also the friend I mentioned upthread who was in a relationship with a sex offender actively hated drugs, barely even touched drink but yet would get with men who used and sold drugs.

I think you’ve done what you can but you’ll probably have to take a step back soon or just shut her down immediately every time she opens her mouth to praises this man.

Yep, men as a drug is a real thing that is as powerful an addiction. I just can’t see her being interested in drugs at all, she always had a strong stance, but empathy towards people who get caught up in these things. She’s never treated anyone like they are scum, and her attachment to this guy, I believe, is her downfall. That story is horrifying, I’ve never let my kids go on sleepovers, but have had kids come to stay with us, precisely because I just could trust those situations, luckily none of my kids have expressed any interest in sleeping over at anyone else anyway.

I’ve always been so proud of my friend that she had such a painful childhood but has achieved so much. Her home was beautiful, her child was happy, she soared to the top of her career, and everthing she owns is hers with only her input, and I just can’t believe this is happening. This guy is also 15 years younger than her, he has no children and his focus is on himself entirely. She has replaced her motherly instinct towards him instead of her child. It’s like she has lost her mind. I think she is deeply depressed. I don’t think drugs is her problem I think obsession and depression are, because he has manipulated her and made her feel loved and condemned in equal measure because he is a narcissist. It’s funny that early on in the relationship suddenly he was going to be made homeless because his landlord was selling. I told her then not to make a mistake and I didn’t even know he was abusive or on drugs at that point as he hadn’t yet shown his true colours. I told her she should tell him to find somewhere else (he’s on benefits) and that how could he possibly contribute towards living, that she doesn’t really know him. Now he’s been kicked out and her child has been taken, she needs to see the clear choice in front of her.

Got a message from her daughters dad today, he sent a message asking for a video call and chat last night, with just her and not the boyfriend, and she hasn’t even replied and it’s 5pm the next day.

I feel for you as it's beyond frustrating and painful when you see someone you care about, making really bad choices. And the answers and the way forward seem so clear to you, which makes it ten times more frustrating because you cannot understand why she wouldn't go for the obviously right things to do.

There are elements of the Al-Anon mantra that are also relevant here - you can't control this and you can't cure it. You can't help someone that doesn't want to be helped. The reality is that she isn't ready for help yet - she may say the words but her actions tell you that it's not genuine. The poster on the AMA thread I mentioned, said that when she had her lightbulb moment that was the point where she was prepared to change and do everything and anything to get her children back.

I’ve always been so proud of my friend that she had such a painful childhood but has achieved so much. Her home was beautiful, her child was happy, she soared to the top of her career, and everthing she owns is hers with only her input, and I just can’t believe this is happening

Sad to hear, it’s almost like she undoing all her progress and what she’s apparently overcome, but part of this could actually be delayed childhood trauma if it was never properly addressed. There’s a quote that says something like “you can’t achieve your way out of trauma” - or words to that effect. Basically success isn’t the same as healing!

In my friends case despite having an ostensibly middle class stable background, her dad who she loved was physically abusive to her and her siblings growing up and she was violently sexually abused by a youth worker.

These things are never an excuse of course to inflict pain on the next generation, but it does go some way to explain others behaviours. If we understand the reason for certain behaviours it’s easier to tackle.

This guy is also 15 years younger than her, he has no children and his focus is on himself entirely

Wow how old is she? I’m late 30s and I can’t imagine dating a man say in his mid 20s. It really would feel like my child.
It’s sad that she is mothering him instead of her child. And her mothering of this man isn’t even very good if she’s enabling his drug habit.

It’s funny that early on in the relationship suddenly he was going to be made homeless because his landlord was selling

That old chestnut. I’m sure he saw her coming. Men like this often target single mothers because the way they see it - they are women with stable housing and regular income either through work or benefits and they’re less likely to be going out and meeting other men due to childcare responsibilities. And some perceive single mums to be desperate and therefore more tolerant of bad behaviour.

Got a message from her daughters dad today, he sent a message asking for a video call and chat last night, with just her and not the boyfriend, and she hasn’t even replied and it’s 5pm the next day.

Her poor daughter.

I do agree as you say it’s likely she is incredibly depressed. Even if she was taking drugs or does in the future it would most likely be a symptom of a wider issue relating to her past trauma . But I doubt that’s the root problem here.

OP, you sound like a lovely woman and friend.
You cannot help someone whom doesn't wish to be helped.
Thank goodness her daughter is safe.
She has made the conscious decision to put her wants and that of that scumbag, first.
Ahead of her own child.
Step away.
Offer her zero help to get her child back.
Support the child and father.
Tell her she knows where you are when she wants to get her shit together.
Until such time, dtop the rope.

I'm not sure where my post went.

Social services should demand that she have a drug evaluation. She sounds like an addict.

I'd assume she is heavily into drugs herself based on the sudden change. She's made her choice unfortunately and it's the chaotic new life with her bf.
I wouldn't be encouraging contact with the daughter. She's better off with her dad unless there is a hell of a change in circumstances- which is only ever going to be 100% up to her. You'll drive yourself mad trying to reason with her. Leave her to it

She’s gone away with her boyfriend for a few days to “get their heads straight” I’m sure that was his suggestion, on her credit card, and by “head straight” I’m sure he means so he can manipulate her into him moving back in

Oh I’ve said it, I’ve said it short and sharp, and I’ve said it at length. I’ve told her how social services think, I’ve told her this guy is essentially like a huge black mark over everything and social services simply won’t care for her stories that he’s “getting help”, that he’s not her daughters father and why is she letting him impact her daughters future. She just says hmmm, yeah, hmmm, lips service agrees with me and then tells me how he’s getting help. Essentially it’s not going in and I honestly think she very naive as to how this system works and how seriously this will all be taken. Because she had a rough upbringing and her dad never had them taken away, she doesn’t realise that things have changed. I have explained that to her. She is convinced he would never be any harm to her child so for her, it’s all a non issue and as long as she tells them he’s getting help and cleans her house, she reckons she will get her daughter back. I’ve told her it’s incredibly stupid and asked her what would actually make her go off this guy, with all he’s already done, and now she’s lost her child!!

Thanks for all your helpful comments. I’ve come to the conclusion that I can’t stop her from making the biggest mistake of her life. That the only thing I can do now is if she brings up this guy, I’ll tell her I don’t want to hear anything positive about him, that he’s the reason she’s losing her daughter and that I believe her daughter is better off with her father due to her clear inability to make sound decisions. She will likely not want to speak with me for much longer, but maybe that is what she needs to hear now. No point trying to convince her to do the right thing, I’ll just say I’m of the opinion she is not a good mother and leave it at that.

Oh Op I’m sorry, she’s definitely using and he’s probably her dealer right now.
Please contact SS to let them know you suspect this and that you also suspect he’s physically abusing her. They need to note this down and they also then offer her the appropriate support to get clean.

Trauma is a funny thing, it never really heals. There’s something about him that this trauma likes.
You are doing the right thing by stepping back but not stepping away completely. If she managed to escape a horrible childhood before, then there is a chance she can do it again. It’s just about where her rock bottom is.
She will need you when she hits it. SS and woman’s aid can offer you some advice on how to proceed with your interactions with her if you feel you need it.
But all you can really do is what you are doing now.

Agree with @Summerlilly's advice. SS priority and focus is her DD. Your friend needs to be the one to decide to change and engage with services - and that won't happen unless she realises that she needs to cut this man out of her life. When she's ready, women's aid are a good source of information and support.

OP it doesn't sound like you were in exactly the same situation, but is there anything anyone could've said to make you leave your abusive relationship when you were in it?

Unfortunately it sounds like she likes her life and isn't that fussed about her daughter
No, I couldn't be like that either but it seems like the only thing you can do is keep reiterating your message and refuse to discuss anything to do with him except getting him out.

I think this is a good way forward. And yes I do suspect she won’t want to talk to you much if you say that which will probably be a blessing in disguise.

She has unfortunately rejected your help and counsel, what she’s going through is probably very complex and bigger than your friendship.

All you can do is be there for her - if you so choose - when she gets through whatever this chaos is, but definitely better to take a step back now.

Honestly OP, she has clearly chosen scum ahead of her child.

Why would YOU want to be around that.
So what if you are old friends.
People change.
I have very very old friends but if they behaved like this and refused to listen to reason I would be out.

The child is safe which is vital.
If she wants to throw her life away then that is on her.

Move on with your life and don't be dragged down by her drama.

You tried to be a friend, she wants to behave badly.

Leave her to her choices.
Protect your peace.

I don’t suspect she’s on drugs, I think she’s addicted fo her boyfriend. I’m not going to make it worse for her no, I’ll leave it to them to sort out. Hopefully they can help her

Could it be @Jazzjazzjazz that your friend has given away to her boyfriend her non-usage of drugs? I'd put my house on the fact she's now using. To keep him.

She's already sacrificed her daughter. Seems to me like he's successfully chipping away at everything she holds dear.

Step away as she'll be asking you for money soon enough. But let her know you'll be there when she comes out the other side. Maybe add an "if" to that, to remind her of the danger she's in.

Some posters are stuck on the idea your friend is using and it sounds like they want you to report her based on their suspicions.
I think your friends behaviour towards her kid is despicable but that’s bonkers. You clearly state you don’t suspect her of taking drugs, so why would you report ? Because MN said so? 🙄

It’s like they haven’t RTFT and keep popping up to suggest drugs as if no-one else has thought of it 🤦🏽‍♀️

Yep exactly, I’d never do that, even if I suspected it, I wouldn’t know. She already has social services involvement and it’s their job to figure out what’s going on, especially as they know her boyfriend is using. If they suspect it I’m sure they will do a drugs test! I believe her addiction is to her boyfriend

@Jazzjazzjazz Yeah I think sometimes posters forget this is real life and they suggest things at random without considering the reality.

As I’ve said I have no idea if she’s using or not but it’s definitely not rare for a woman to act recklessly and risk custody of her children for a man. It happens a lot with zero drugs involved, so it’s absolutely possible that’s the case here.

You’re right to leave it for social services at this point. They already have all the necessary information to do this investigations.

while the father is a good father, like most of them they don’t really know the reality of caring for a child full time

Why do you say this? Has he been complaining that he has the child full time?

No I'm making the very valid point that 8 years of every other weekend is nothing like 24/7. She never even had babysitters and was totally work and child focused, she just built everthing around her child, had after school care, but wasn’t out on the town, and never even dated anyone until now. He on the other hand had the ‘benefits’ that a lot of separated fathers have, the ability to live essentially as a single man, able to earn more, to have freedoms she didn’t have, to build an entire new life for himself without worry- he’s on this third girlfriend. He’s a nice guy don’t get me wrong, but weekend parenting is nothing like full time parenting, in terms of time, energy, focusing your whole life entirely around the child, child admin, appointments and decision, keeping up with their schedule and their learning, not being able to just pop to the shops in the evening for milk because your child is asleep. It’s an entirely different scenario. So- he’s a nice guy, but my point was, not sure he understands the reality of full time parenting, and it’s going to mean big changes for all of them, so we will see how that goes.

Okay so crazy thing you all know people have life experiences and often have experience in regards to whatever the posters issue is right?
In my work experience, in nearly all cases I’ve seen where the mother hasn’t reached out and made attempts to see or try and get their child back initially they are nearly always using drugs. It may not be hard drugs or a severe addiction but they are. Especially since the parent is using.
When they eventually engage they do the shock pikachu face when they are told the scum of a bf is the problem and they refuse to leave them.
SS won’t be investigating anything atm if the parent is not engaging with them.
By reporting suspicions, you are just protecting the child from more trauma. They have already experienced a lot of that right now, but that doesn’t mean they can’t see anymore.

I have RTFT, and just wanted to say that there is no helping your friend right now. Like a true addiction, no amount of pleading, support or intervention will make her change if she doesn't want to. She has to hit rock bottom and reach that epiphany stage on her own. She is very lucky that her child's father has stepped up (he deserves more credit than you saying he's a nice guy but we will see if he copes full time), otherwise her DD would very likely be on the path way to long term foster care or adoption by now.

I hope your friend isn't at an age to still fall pregnant with this guy because the above will become a very strong reality!

I also think its worth mentioning that this man isn't just a risk to SS, your friend is now too. So she won't immediately get full custody of her daughter once she ditches this guy and cleans her house. She is going to have to jump through numerous hoops to get anywhere near that stage. The fact that she has not engaged/fought to get her daughter back and is minimising any risk this man is to her daughter "because he'd not harm her" is a massive safeguarding risk from her, regardless of if she is now using herself or not. SS and the child's father are going to need physical, sustained evidence that she can infact safeguard her own child, aswell as herself. She has to prove she, nor her daughter will ever be in this position again. Yes it may be a blip in her life and completely out of character but she is choosing this situation and she is the cause of the domino effect that her life now.

I'd also be abit cautious of providing her with a script, and a checklist of sorts, for SS, because it is common for some people in these situations to try and play the system when they believe none of this is their fault.