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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Mum friends or frenemies? Can't get over it

171 replies

BloomingOrchidea · 28/11/2024 04:30

I am tired of speaking about this with my friends and my husband literally shouted at me for bringing this up again today. Please, if someone can tell me how I can get over this I'd be forever grateful

So, during my pregnancy I connected with around eight other mums to be, to form friendships and companionship during our upcoming mat leave.
One in particular, lets call her Ava, I thought I'd got on well with: Ava is lively, friendly and goes out of her way to help all of us. Her generosity is unmatched.

At some point into our mat leaves, some drama happened in the group where two of the girls were somewhat unkind to another. They basically accused her of knowingly bringing her sick children to a gathering where most of the babies got ill, and Ava's baby caught bronchiolitis as a result.

This girl, lets call her Helen, was mortified. She apologised profusely and swore she didn't realise her kid was ill. I believed her and took particular umbrage at how she was made to feel.

When I next saw one of the unkind girls, we can call her Polly, I didn't hide my feelings and when she asked if I was OK I was honest and told her how she'd made Helen feel. She gave a qualified apology, saying Helen is a disruptor, doesn't take advice from us when her children fall ill and maybe if she did they would be healthier. Her tone was that Helen is a neglectful mum.
Nonetheless, she messaged Helen directly and apologised which was good because they sorted things out between themselves. Good.

Now Polly is the mums I was least close to. I found her to be quite self absorbed. One of those people that talk over you and is only quiet so they can think of the next thing to say. She's also really negative, and pretty dramatic which I found draining. Id always offer to help anyway, as we all did, but it just never seemed enough.

I never spoke about Polly, about how I didn't like her, to anyone, until one day Ava and I were out together and Ava broaches the subject of the whole drama with Helen. I felt Ava was safe, so I told her about my feelings towards Polly. Ava joined in, saying how she also finds Polly negative, that her partner finds her super negative too and that when she visits, always overstays her welcome to the point that Ava feels she needs to feed her because she's there for so long.

A few weeks go by, Polly and her friend had become somewhat frozen out of the group because the others also felt they were too negative and a bit judgemental.

Then one day Ava messages saying she's very worried about Polly, how she is really remorseful about what happened, and that shes feeling isolated as if she had no friends at all. I was sceptical. Polly has 5000 friends on facebook and friends irl who help her and her family. However she insisted that Polly is vulnerable and susceptible to the influences of others and thats why she acted that way.

So the other girls and I warmed up to Polly again and thought Ava was being noble, by helping someone in a bad position.

After that, Polly and Ava seemed to have become best friends. They would often share picture of them together and their babies with the group, sometimes to things none of us had been invited to. Ava started saying things like "come to my house, ill cook for you" or "youre welcome to a playdate at mine" whenever Polly would hint she was lonely or had no plans.

There are other friendships in the group but no one else behaves this way. Things arranged between individuals are kept between them and no one fawns over their mates like this. And there are other good friendships there, that's a fact. Its gotten to a point that if Ava goes anywhere and invites the group, Polly shows herself availably immediately. I personally don't want to spend time with her and noticed the others will often not join either. I only really see them when we arrange to all meet which usually happens about once a month.

To begin with I thought how nice of Ava to help someone in need but as their PDAs carried on I started to wonder if any of what she told me was true? I began feeling as if I had been manipulated into saying how I truly felt. That maybe I had been spied on?

All I know is it makes me sick to see them be friends. Maybe I am jealous, that Polly despite her shortcomings found herself a good, true friend and I didnt?
Thing is I was genuinely OK to begin with, but as the PDAs kept coming in I found myself more and more annoyed.

The chat is on mute, and Ive not gone to recent gatherings, mainly because Ava doesnt think anything of bringing her kid out when he had just recovered from HFM (still had blisters and my baby caught it off him) or RSV and that's annoyed me anew.

Ive been told me to just leave the chat and cut ties but I feel the right thing is to continue pretending all is well , not show my feelings again, otherwise if I do then I lost the game, I am weak and pathetic.

Thank you if youve made it this way. I know you will say I just need to get over it, but believe me, Ive tried. Ive made other friends, I have my own interests, I love my life. They just annoy me and I dont know why!

AIBU and crazy and just completely insane?

OP posts:
Diomi · 28/11/2024 06:26

In my world PDA stands for pathological demand avoidance, so I was expecting a bit more drama from the situation.

The key with baby groups and school mums is to not get overly invested emotionally. They are just people you might or might not get along with who happen to have a kid a similar age. On the whole you drift apart once your child moves on to the next phase.

BloomingOrchidea · 28/11/2024 06:27

Guest100 · 28/11/2024 06:14

I feel for you, I often find myself in the same sort of situation. I have friends, but the friends all coupled up into best friends. And while I have an amazing friend group I do still feel a bit shit to see all the best friend catch ups on social media. In my experience I am to blame. I can be a bit lazy in contacting friends, and it takes me a while to be myself.

I think as much as it hurts you need to see this group as more of a playgroup than a group of close friends.

Dont follow them on social media. You will find this makes a big difference to your mental health.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with catching up with them, but I really think you need to branch out and meet other people. Join lots of baby activities like playgroup, kindergym all that stuff. You may still feel like the single person in the room of couples, but you never know when you will find your place.

It’s very important that you don’t mix the old group of friends with the new. Find baby groups in areas the others don’t go to. Otherwise you risk the same thing happening again. Don’t isolate yourself, parenting can be a very lonely time. Once you find a new group ditch the old one. They sound a bit toxic. And don’t get dragged into being best friends with one of them when they inevitably fall out with the group, because you will just get ignored when they make up.

Your husband doesn’t understand and probably just got sick of you venting. His life hasn’t changed like yours has. DHS tend to feel like your life is all roses because you get to stay home, so he isn’t the person to talk to.

Wow I feel like you really got my points and described me very well.
Going into this I only had one or two friends and naively thought by finding this group we'd all get along just fine. Instant bffs with babies in tow, perfect!

I've now begun making other friends. I have great neighbours who I'm close to and begun going to specific groups that I'm interested in a bit further afield

And most importantly I've learnt my lesson to just keep QUIET!

OP posts:
Josette77 · 28/11/2024 06:28

They became close and you became jealous. It's fine but you are bizarrely obsessed with pdas and what not. It sounds more like a crush.
.
These posts always end with people declaring mom friends as awful and cliquey.

I have a solid group of mom friends from preschool and next year our kids will be in high school.

My female friendships mean the world to me.

Josette77 · 28/11/2024 06:30

BloomingOrchidea · 28/11/2024 06:27

Wow I feel like you really got my points and described me very well.
Going into this I only had one or two friends and naively thought by finding this group we'd all get along just fine. Instant bffs with babies in tow, perfect!

I've now begun making other friends. I have great neighbours who I'm close to and begun going to specific groups that I'm interested in a bit further afield

And most importantly I've learnt my lesson to just keep QUIET!

Why though? It doesn't seem like anything happened because you vented a bit to Ava? Ava didn't tell anyone presumably and life went on.

PumpkinsAndCoconuts · 28/11/2024 06:32

SparkleShineRainbow · 28/11/2024 05:04

I think polly has disclosed something to Ava that the rest of you don’t know. Like
mental health issue or a problem in her life and she’s secured the friendship and support she needs. Ava’s PDAs are a mixture of genuine support plus trying to persuade others to follow the lead and be supportive too - which will morph into rifts if this doesn’t happen. It already is creating a rift.

you could speak to polly 1-1 to see how she is. Ava might not have shared what you said behind her back. Or, if she did, then you’ll know.

either way you have to learn a lesson here about not talking behind other people’s backs. In a mum group I’d never discuss my personal feelings about one of the group with another person in the group. It’s really bad form. I think I did it recently once but I’ve known those guys for 10 years and there’s no question of damaging the relationships. You may not see it like this but you kind of made a grab at social power in the group (iyswim) in building up your relationship with Ava by talking down about Polly. This rarely ends well.

You could block and ghost the group. They will be offended, you’ll be the bad guy, will this actually help you?

You sound a bit insecure. Becoming a mum is so isolating. Be kind to yourself. You’re just navigating new situations. People make mistakes. The group isn’t perfect but it’s what you have right now. Maybe it’s drawing to an end. You might end up seeing them in years to come when kids go to local activities or schools so try to keep it on a friendly track.

I agree with this.

if OP is still reading:

This kind of thing will seem extremely trivial to most mumsnetters (me included, tbh). But if you’ve never experienced group dynamics like this it can probably feel somewhat overwhelming.

You had previously called out „Polly“ and probably strongly influenced her decision to apologise to Hazel.
You still talked about her to Ava, which may have been seen as wanting to stir up trouble or trying to create a united front (against Polly).

And afterwards you and other women of your group iced her out (it may not have been what you intended, but that’s what you did). This created or at least contributed to a rift in your group. And yet again, „united front“.

Ava has clearly decided - for whatever reason - that she’d try to mend this rift.

You can either leave this group or accept that Ava has decided that she’ll continue to include Polly and also accept that she has ultimately made a decision for the entire group. It’s your choice. But don’t take this too seriously. And I would strongly encourage you to make other mum-friends (if you haven’t already).

BloomingOrchidea · 28/11/2024 06:33

GiraffesAtThePark · 28/11/2024 06:22

I thought this was going to end with Ava turning on you and freezing you out the group but no - it seems she just became friends with someone you both seemed not to like at one point.

People can be like that. Not like someone and then suddenly things have changed for them and they like them now. It can be confusing and annoying but it’s life.

You being this obsessed speaks to issues with you. You just need to accept this is how it is and just ignore them. Go hang out with other friends or baby groups.

Yes I'm finding it difficult to process how people can make such a statement about someone they've known a while and then change their mind. I'm not like that but this has been a lesson for me that not everyone is like me and I just have to accept it. Thanks for responding

OP posts:
NineDaysQueen · 28/11/2024 06:34

'Let's call her...'
Was where you lost me; obviously posters are not going to use real names. We don't need the announcement that we are going call him/her by 'x' name.
However, after ploughing through because I thought it's 6.25am and I have coffee, this groups sound as if it were comprised of 13/14 year olds.
Are women now maturing at the same rate as men rather than being a couple of years ahead as they have been for millenia?

Twiglets1 · 28/11/2024 06:36

Josette77 · 28/11/2024 06:30

Why though? It doesn't seem like anything happened because you vented a bit to Ava? Ava didn't tell anyone presumably and life went on.

I agree that venting to Ava didn't damage anything especially as Ava agreed with you at the time.

It's just that Ava & Polly's relationship improved while your relationship with Ava stayed the same when you would have liked it to have developed into a deeper friendship. In my experience it's normal to have little irritations in friendship groups and it's ok to confide that to others from time to time as long as everyone stays discreet.

Guest100 · 28/11/2024 06:36

BloomingOrchidea · 28/11/2024 06:27

Wow I feel like you really got my points and described me very well.
Going into this I only had one or two friends and naively thought by finding this group we'd all get along just fine. Instant bffs with babies in tow, perfect!

I've now begun making other friends. I have great neighbours who I'm close to and begun going to specific groups that I'm interested in a bit further afield

And most importantly I've learnt my lesson to just keep QUIET!

If you have made other friends then I think it’s time to leave the other group. They leave you feeling bad about yourself, it’s not worth the stress. I know you don’t want them to feel like they have won, but if it makes you feel better post lots of pictures of you on a play date so they see you have found better friends. Give it a month then unfriend them on Facebook.

Pinkmoonshine · 28/11/2024 06:37

That group sound awful. I wouldn’t want to hang around with any one of them.

Switcher · 28/11/2024 06:39

I would find that nursery place and go back to work...I remember this overthinking, it was so difficult and it all seemed really important and real. I think it's a bit of a new mum thing, on constant alert.

severyyhv · 28/11/2024 06:40

The mum group can be a bit of a minefield. It can be quite an emotionally challenging time and you find yourself self with this group that are sharing the same experience as you but also may have strong opposing opinions.

In my first mum group I saw us as a close unit we literally met up 2/3 times a week but then when kids were oneish several mums returned to work so the big group died off and I realised some of them had nurtured close friendships in smaller groups and I hadn't. I struggled with that for a while , I was a bit more prepared/realistic next time .

PumpkinsAndCoconuts · 28/11/2024 06:40

Guest100 · 28/11/2024 06:36

If you have made other friends then I think it’s time to leave the other group. They leave you feeling bad about yourself, it’s not worth the stress. I know you don’t want them to feel like they have won, but if it makes you feel better post lots of pictures of you on a play date so they see you have found better friends. Give it a month then unfriend them on Facebook.

I agree. (I should have read the updates before posting)

I personally wouldn’t inform other group members and openly / loudly flounce. Be polite, simply deny invitations, ignore the chat, make plans with other friends.

More of a phase out than a flounce. But maybe that’s just me 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

sometimesmovingforwards · 28/11/2024 06:43

I tried…
Is there a TLDR summary anywhere?

Mostlyoblivious · 28/11/2024 06:43

So after Ava got the hump with Helen for bringing a sick kid to a meet up (a dick move to sure to inflict illness on other babies and) making her little one ill with bronchiolitis she then decides, having caused a ruction in the group about it to then be a complete hypocrite by bring her sick kid with RSV and HFM to meet ups and spreading those illnesses. Ava is a dick an idiot.

You are all so immature here: you use the silent treatment to make people fish out if there’s an issue and make a mass decision to freeze people out and that’s such a dick move very emotionally immature. It sounds like a school fall out in all honesty. Learn how to use your words to communicate with people instead of attention seeking or bullying behaviour. Yes it sounds that you are jealous of Polly and Ava and perhaps wanted to be the alpha in the group but for goodness sake, you are raising babies here - do better for them.

PumpkinsAndCoconuts · 28/11/2024 06:46

sometimesmovingforwards · 28/11/2024 06:43

I tried…
Is there a TLDR summary anywhere?

Group dynamics, being a new mum, overthinking, inexperience with group dynamics. 🤔

But OP has been given good advice and seems to be doing well (other friends, groups etc…).

Prescottdanni123 · 28/11/2024 06:47

Maybe Ava had a chat or heart to heart with Polly and realized that she had misjudged her? Maybe Polly revealed something that made Ava realize that she wasn't actually the bitch that the pair of you thought she was. You sound like once you make up your mind about someone, that is it.

Hearteyes · 28/11/2024 06:47

I had a bad experience with my NCT group. I tried for over a year to stay in the group and made a huge amount of effort. There were too many dynamics that were not making me feel good and I eventually pulled back and didn’t seem them anymore. I realised I didn’t need that negativity in my life, but it did take me a while to get over it. Are you still on maternity leave?
When I went back to work I found things much easier and I used my energy on my other friends. I realised I didn’t need a group of ‘Mum Friends’ at that time. I have since met other individuals along the way and I have friends who happen to be Mums but not a group of ‘mum friends’ and it’s working out well for me. You’ll be fine but cut the negativity from your life, you’ll realise how much you don’t need it.

BloomingOrchidea · 28/11/2024 06:50

Josette77 · 28/11/2024 06:28

They became close and you became jealous. It's fine but you are bizarrely obsessed with pdas and what not. It sounds more like a crush.
.
These posts always end with people declaring mom friends as awful and cliquey.

I have a solid group of mom friends from preschool and next year our kids will be in high school.

My female friendships mean the world to me.

Since you were in preschool or your children? That's amazing, and enviable, I admire how you stayed together through the peaks and troughs of life

I just find it odd that two friends, chat privately and arrange to meet also privately, then come on the group chat to share pictures. The rest of us don't do that. It makes others feel excluded. Helen who I mentioned earlier left the group and deleted us all from all socials because she felt excluded. So I don't think that behaviour is polite. Is it trying to convince us theyre fun ? Is this Ava further trying to mend the rift?
I personally don't care about being excluded from Ava and Pollys outings because I don't want to spend time with Polly outside of the big group so she can be diluted / watered down a little. I find her lacking in positivity very draining.

I used the term PDA as a superlative to ridicule their attempts of i don't know what

OP posts:
RosesAndHellebores · 28/11/2024 06:50

So, a bunch of women with little or nothing in common who had a baby at the same time. None of you know each other and yet the dynamics of year 9 have prevailed.

The "friendships" are superficial at this stage. In my DH's Yorkshire tones: "hear all, see all, say nowt". In my southern ones: "be cautious until you get to know people".

When pg with DS I went to an NCT group. Once - I hit unlucky, they weren't my type.

I met other mums at story time at the library, one o'clock club, toddler group, etc, and later the school gates. Nattered about the baby, the weather, sport, music. Never about other people, feelings, religion, politics. It takes time to find a kindred spirit and a true friend. You know nothing of these people except for what they tell you and they may be curated versions if themselves. Just be nice to all. At every one of those places there was cliqueyness and a bit of cattiness. Never get involved and don't get "close" until you have seen it play out and found out who's who. It's little different from school and work.

I met one kindred spirit in the baby days, one at the school gate, one through an interest. Our families remain friends 30 years on.

CeeceeBloomingdale · 28/11/2024 06:51

You're over invested in other people's lives. What they do together is their business. You can't back off from a group and expect them to all drop their friendship so you don't feel jealous. Try not to worry about things you can't control. The only thing you can control is yourself, you can choose to be in the friendship group, or continue watching from afar and getting torn up about it or simply leave it altogether. That's the only thing you need to worry about, what you're going to do.

Mattins · 28/11/2024 06:53

See it as a lesson in not being a drama-stoker in future. Absolutely no need to ‘be honest and tell Polly how you feel’ because someone else’s baby caught an infection from Helen’s and someone huffed and there was a spat and a reshuffle in the group.

Are you very young? Because (1) you’re making a minor spat in a group of people you’ve only known a short while sound like the Wars of the Roses, and (2) you are making the tweenage rookie error of thinking that slagging off a third party endears you to whoever you’re talking to.

BloomingOrchidea · 28/11/2024 06:54

RosesAndHellebores · 28/11/2024 06:50

So, a bunch of women with little or nothing in common who had a baby at the same time. None of you know each other and yet the dynamics of year 9 have prevailed.

The "friendships" are superficial at this stage. In my DH's Yorkshire tones: "hear all, see all, say nowt". In my southern ones: "be cautious until you get to know people".

When pg with DS I went to an NCT group. Once - I hit unlucky, they weren't my type.

I met other mums at story time at the library, one o'clock club, toddler group, etc, and later the school gates. Nattered about the baby, the weather, sport, music. Never about other people, feelings, religion, politics. It takes time to find a kindred spirit and a true friend. You know nothing of these people except for what they tell you and they may be curated versions if themselves. Just be nice to all. At every one of those places there was cliqueyness and a bit of cattiness. Never get involved and don't get "close" until you have seen it play out and found out who's who. It's little different from school and work.

I met one kindred spirit in the baby days, one at the school gate, one through an interest. Our families remain friends 30 years on.

What you wrote made me well up. I might just be needing some sleep but, right now, I feel the weight of wisdom your words carry. Thank you

OP posts:
Ireolu · 28/11/2024 06:55

How old are these kids and when do you go back to work if you work? I say this as kindly as i can manage none of this is important enough to be so wound up about. Let it go and enjoy your precious time with your LO.

It also pretty bad when they go to primary so you need to start working on how to manage people/adults you wouldn't necessarily get along with but may need to spend time with due to circumstance. Hanging out with these women is a choice though, so if it makes you unhappy stop.

Jifmicroliquid · 28/11/2024 06:56

How old are you all?
It’s all very ‘high school’ really. Do you have any other friends you can spend time with? I’d be moving away from this friendship group if I were you.