I feel like my fiance is putting me in an impossible position with communication. Am I just way off base here?

[AlertOP]

My fiance (38M) and I (35F) generally have a strong relationship and excellent communication. We did couples therapy after we first got engaged a few years ago which strengthened our relationship and communication a lot. I’m not really interested in “just break up” advice, please keep in mind what I’m presenting here is just one slice of our relationship.

We have been having this issue for a bit where when I bring up a conversation about something that bothers me, it goes completely sideways. We’re very respectful to each other, we don’t name call or yell, but these conversations seem to always end in both of us just feeling upset and misunderstood. I don’t bring these up super often, but I have noticed a trend.

We had another one of these conversations today where I wanted to bring up something that had rubbed me the wrong way in a previous conversation (he spoke to a coworker in a way that was very rude in front of me). Important context here is that my fiance has urged me since the beginning of our relationship to always tell him when something bothers me, and he gets upset if he finds out later that I didn’t discuss something with him when I was feeling it. So I try to bring things up.

I communicate as non violently as humanly possible. I use I feel statements, I acknowledge his perspective and intention, and I validate his experience.

He feels attacked every time. He gets defensive every time.

We finally had a meta conversation this past weekend about these discussions. He basically said that as long as I am telling him he did something “wrong” (I never use that language) he is always going to feel attacked and like I’m condemning him and therefore I should always expect him to get defensive.

I told him that this cycle makes me feel much less safe and willing to bring things up with him, which he wants me to do. He said that’s a problem for him in our relationship. I asked him to remember that I’m not attacking him and work on his defensiveness. He said that’s impossible. I said that’s a problem for me.

It’s like there’s no way out of this cycle. He wants me to bring things up and if I don’t, he’s upset, and if I do, he feels attacked.

I literally don’t know what else I could do in this situation. I have tried to adjust my verbiage at his request, but ultimately it boils down to no matter how I bring things up he is always going to feel like he’s being attacked. Is there something I’m missing here? This is not healthy right? I tried to explain to him that from my perspective we are always going to do things wrong unintentionally to each other and we need to be able to bring that up without the feeling of being attacked. He just doesn’t understand that.

Back to couples counseling with us I suspect.

Hmmmm. You had couples therapy so early on in your relationship? This is unusual and I’d say doesn’t bode well, particularly as you say you are both excellent at communicating, which you clearly aren’t.

Having said that, my ex was a bit like this. Said I should be able to sy anything to him, but when I did, he could never hanfle it as he always took it as a personal attack. As I result,I capitulated and didn’t tell him what I was really feeling, for fear of his reaction. It was one of the many contributing factors to our split.

Communication is key in a relationship but it depends on how it's taken and what the outcome or plan is.

Mostly men will get defensive no matter how the conversation is brought up and you may feel like you would rather not bring up any conversations at all.
It's healthy to chat about things that don't sit right with both of you coz believe me when you don't speak up it results to slow resentment and build up of all the errors then one day "boom" it all tumbles down and you can't take it anymore and are ready to leave.

I say keep going for it and ask him to reciprocate too by telling you what doesn't sit right with him.
It's not about winning but about settling for what makes both of you happy

To add to my earlier post, when I found myself single again, and was spending more time (eg holidays) with friends rather than exH, I felt a bit shocked when people spoke to me directly like ‘FFS hurry up or we will miss the train!’ because I was trained in ‘I mean this gently but when the train left without us - and I’m not blaming you - I felt x; can we talk about that?’ And it was so refreshing to just be … normal!

But it is sbout winning for him. He experiences any comment on his behavior that is not admiring to be an intolerable loss of face.

OP you need to pull back and look at what he is doing, not shat he is saying. He says he wants open and honest discussion on a wide variety of topics. But in reality the topic is limited to “how does this make boyfriend feel good about himself.”

Sounds to me like no matter how hard you try (and you try hard), you just can't do anything right. As far as he's concerned It's always your fault. And you're so nice that you think you can fix it. My advice is to cut your losses. Because you are nice and he will keep taking advantage of that (whether on purpose or not) and it will turn you into something you're not. You deserve better. And he won't change.

He's actually trained you to bring everything up in one way, but can't handle it when you do. On the flip side, do you point out every little niggle? That could be wearing.
I note you seem to feel you now have to tell him everything that is on your mind for fear of him being upset if you don't tell him, even though you know telling him will lead to a defensive argument. Are you feeling like you can't win either way?
But how would he know the half of it if you say nothing? Are you missing the part where if something annoys you, you fester on it, can't get past it yourself and start behaving off with him, maybe?
If you are going to bring something up about behaviour, you should discuss at the time, it's too late to bring it up down the line, and especially if you have had a spell of being in a bad mood with him in between.
From your example, if I thought someone was off with how they spoke with a colleague, at the time and in the moment I'd of said "that sounded a bit off, don't you think?". But why are bringing it back up when you had a conversation about it prior, and it doesn't even sound like that one was in the moment?
I might be wrong, but it sounds like you don't say what you think at the time, and fester on it instead until he asks you what's up and you tell him. That's your bad communication maybe. He might actually be less defensive if you tackle it at the time it happens, as his defensiveness could be his way of trying to stop the mood you've been in since.

OP would it be a fair challenge to ask if all the therapy has just replaced one communication issue with another? By that I mean whatever the original issue that sent you to therapy was has been replaced by communication that is so hidden by overly thought-out statements and fear of offending the other that it's not effective or authentic anymore? Maybe that's why you're still going round in circles.

Sometimes we need to just be able to say how we feel. Without reframing it to the extent it loses its meaning or impact. If so more therapy might compound the issue.

I honestly want to give you the best advice, but I read your very long post and couldn’t remember at the end where we started. Ultimately this is about your feelings and you should be able to express how you feel to your partner without them attacking you for it. I would suggest that you stop caring about how they feel. You are bigger and more important than this relationship. If you truly feel how you feel you need to express that and accept that their responses are telling of their character. If he feels attacked it’s either an expression of frustration, unmet need, or defensiveness on his part for something they know they did is wrong. At the end of the day the only ones or us capable of passing moral judgement are those that deep down, in our own heart, acknowledge that we aren’t capable of acting to the other person the same way they acted to us. If you deep down recognise his behaviour to be completely unreasonable and something you would never do in his situation then 100% I’m behind you and go get em, lay down the law and actually set boundaries you would 100% walk away from if crossed Xxx

He’s set up an ideal game, hasn’t he? Whether your speak or you don’t, you’re the one in the wrong.

Some of you haven't heard of NVC, or non-violent communication. It's a communication method that is designed to enable conversations where nobody feels attacked - hence why OP is using it with her partner who feels attacked. It's been around since the 60s, very much not something that only 20 year olds are into!

or we know about nvc and also know how anything at all can be twisted by abusers and used as weapons

the OP said she is using nvc and yet still DP is saying he is ‘feeling attacked’

so OP is now trying to float above eggshells never mind treading on them

directness vs subtlety is irrelevant if the continued refrain is “you are not saying it right so I can’t possibly listen”

the only answer to that is going to be to yourself bc he’s not listening is he?

and hopefully the answer you give yourself is “I don’t have to tie myself in knots for someone who refuses healthy communication and wants me to be small, I can leave and go be much happier breathing easy, speaking clearly and with room to stretch and grow”

I don’t understand the scenario

Sounds like you were criticising him for the way he spoke to a colleague? I mean if the conversation was upsetting you … why didn’t you walk away?

it seem like your now criticism him… hence his is defensive… what are you trying to achieve by telling him about every niggling upset?

It’s incredibly disingenuous to say “I never use that language [of him being ‘wrong’]” when your intention is absolutely to tell him that he’s wrong. He’s right, it’s entirely normal for him to feel attacked and defensive if you challenge him for how he speaks to a colleague. If my husband told me how I spoke to my colleague ‘rubbed him up the wrong way’ (which he wouldn’t, in any language) I’d tell him to mind his own business, he’s not my dad. Which I think would be a lot more effective and authentic than your stuff and leave us both a lot happier in the long run.

You can’t therapy yourselves into being compatible. Relationships are about shared values. If you often hear the way he speaks to you and other people and feel the need to modify it, consider that you maybe just don’t like who he is that much.

Yep.

OP, let me translate this recent 'conversation' into commonplace English for you. Please.

You: The way you spoke to Max was right out of order, no need to be so rude.
Him: What's it got to do with you? Butt out!
You: It upsets me when you act like a dick, I think you're better than that.
Him: Well, babe, I don't give a shit how you feel or what you think.

By all means continue this absurd struggle to get some communication going - like all your other respondents, I think you're twisting yourself out of shape for a dead-end relationship, but there's no accounting for what turns people on. However, I STRONGLY suggest switching to straightforward, clear and honest, common English.

Can you do that?

Yes, this. @AlertOP You don't love him enough the way he is (and fair enough, he sounds like a dick the way he is) and he doesn't love you enough to change the way he is. So why are you together?

I believe in the benefits of therapy and self reflection but you seem stuck in a really unhelpful dynamic of taking a therapeutic approach to every little thing.

sometimes direct is good:

I thought you were a bit abrupt with your colleague, was that banter or do you not like them? (For example). Highlights you noticed his behaviour & gives him room to give an alternative explanation (‘oh that’s just our sense of humour, we always talk to each other like that’ or ‘I was a bit, but they are always so rude to me’.

it would probably help to bring this sort of stuff up in the moment tbh - much later makes it a bigger thing. If it is brought up later then ‘what’s the story behind the interaction with colleague earlier? Bit of a strange vibe’ would do the trick. Give room for an explanation from a fairly neutral comment, rather than ‘this made me feel’ before you even know what the story is.

If you do go back to therapy maybe ask for coaching rather than counselling. If you are with someone long term they will do annoying things. Some of it may need a bigger discussion (eg if they are always rude in their interactions with say middle aged women but pleasant to everyone rude). But a one off comment that makes you cringe or feel a bit uncomfortable prob just needs a ‘what was going on there?’ passing comment - and too much analysis is going to be problematic.

This is a good idea.

He wanted you to use "You (he) didn't do anything wrong" or "I don't need any changes from this" that he wouldn't feel defensive. "

Wow 😅

Sorry to laugh but basically he has the most fragile ego and can't bear to consider he might be wrong. You can be wrong, in fact it's very important that you are, but not him.

It all gets turned round on you, right?

I'm wondering if perhaps you went to therapy originally because of his emotionally abusive behaviours? In which case this situation would be the perfect example of why the advice is not to have joint counselling with an abusive person, as they just manipulate the counselling and language of therapy to further the abuse.

Very much this, and what was the nature of his and colleague's conversation you felt you had to weigh in on?

Using gentle parenting on men is exhausting!

Op you're trying your very best here! There's not a magic formula that you can do to fix him, he needs to want to change this issue himself.

Does he really expect he can be in a long term relationship without someone giving occasional feedback to him? Does he expect two people to just not talk about their feelings and squash them down to keep the peace? As that's the only alternative, whether you stay together or he's with someone else. He needs to go to individual therapy about this. Or he just needs to get used to it being uncomfortable. And YOU need to get used to feeling uncomfortable if he reacts with anything other than a customer services style 'thank you so much for your feedback'

What's the minimum you'd accept? Acknowledge of your feelings and commitment to change I suppose? Can you get used to him, as long as that's there?

Such good advice on her OP. I hope you can take it all on board and apply it to you own situation.

Can you imagine what advice you would give if this were your daughter or even granddaughter telling you about her efforts in this relationship.

Simple question. If you get married, do you intend to stay married long term? I'm thinking 20+ yrs. If this is your dream scenario, ask yourself if you can live with all this communication nonsense and over thinking every conversation over that time? I'd say it's unsustainable but only you can answer that. Do you want to be planning every conversation before you discuss real issues or do you want a relaxed, happy laid-back vibe where you are on the same team and have each others back regardless.

Meta conversation

Jeez! 🤣🤣🤣

Indeed. It sounds intense and exhausting.

WTF have I just read? Just end it.

It’s at times like this that generational differences really shine through.