Sister self-identifying as ASD is now identifying rest of family as ASD

[Kipsmum]

That's it, really. Two years ago my DS, in her late 50s, was divorced by my DBIL after 28 years of marriage. She's always been prickly and as she's aged I and my DB and DBIL have had to tiptoe around her more and more delicately. During the divorce process she went to a counsellor and since then has communicated with us in 'therapy speak'. Everything is about her, her feelings and her speaking her truth. My DB and I listened and nodded and tried to support her and we hoped she'd emerge the other side of therapy happier and easier to get along with.

Now she's sent us several massive WA messages to explain that she's done an online questionnaire and has diagnosed herself as ASD. She's started saying that both our parents were ASD and she also says my brother is ASD. She cites things like the fact that my parents were quiet people who only had a small social circle, as proof. She's said my dad had no friends and I gently reminded her that he belong to the bowling club and also the local cricket club and had friends from his allotment: they all came to his funeral. She's said the same of my mum and I've pointed out that Mum had a number of friends she was regularly in touch with and until she died had several holidays a year with those friends or her sister or other relatives. She also volunteered in a charity shop and did day one evening classes and made friends there. My sister is furious when I point these inconvenient facts out.

My DB is a quiet, family-orientated man like my father and DS says this is proof he's ASD, but DB's certainly not a black-and-white thinker and has no issues with communication and social skills, let alone the more obvious indications of ASD. DS has been angry with him because he's told her he thinks she's got this wrong.

We have no idea what to do or what to say. Unless we just nod and agree with her, DS gets very angry with us. If anyone has any idea of what's going on, please shine a light.

The only thing I can think of is to have some joint therapy sessions together with an independent new therapist. I think I need a third party to manage things. I doubt she'll agree to it. She rarely agrees with anything I propose. It's all I can think of. Sorry, we've moved beyond the autism issue.

Do not do this. It will lead to further harm for you.

She is asking unresaonable things of you. You are not her emotional support blanket, you are not a punch bag, you are not less important than she is.

You are a person who's needs and views as as valid as hers. She is becoming emotionally abusive in her demands on you. That is not accpetable autism or not. (Based on the bits of info here I'd agree with her ex H that she sounds more boderline personality disorder than autism. And of course self diagnosed autism can be a great weapon for those with personality disorders.!)

It is time to put up some clear boundaries and protections. Grey rock, standard answers which shut down emotional converstaions:

'I'm no longer discussing it.'
I don't see it like that.
That is not my view or experience.
I won't engage in this topic anymore.
You do what is best for you,
I will do what is best for me.

etc etc.
Pick a few and use them repeatedly. She'll initially rage at you as this will feel like the worst thing for her, but persist until she has to accpet that is the way it now is and she can adjust her intercations or not. Her choice.

@DucklingSwimmingInstructress I ask this kindly, but from her perspective do you think there is some truth in what she says, to some degree at least? It's very clear that you love her and care for her but is there the possibility that others have made her feel this way? (the answer may be yes, or no, or partly. I'm just asking the question).
She's talked a lot about being made to feel inferior. A few years ago when she talked about this I quoted Eleanor Roosevelt's 'No one can make you feel inferior without your consent', intending to make the point that there is a degree of choice in the matter, and DSis came as close to hitting me as she ever has and couldn't get her head around what Roosevelt meant.

DSis was the youngest child and yes, as children and teens all three of us probably did occasionally get into 'You're stupid-no, you're stupid'-type arguments. I was older, I'm sure I occasionally expressed surprise that she didn't know something. But she was much better at maths and chemistry than me and she used to be rude to me about how hopeless I was in those subjects. On the whole from my perspective we were were pretty good, pretty respectful kids and I don't think our behaviour would have been seen as unusual. I was a bit bossy at times, partly because my mum expected me to be responsible for the other two at times and I tried to deliver.

My DB and I thrived in school and had small friendships groups and got through adolescence relatively painlessly. My sister was the pretty one and had boyfriends and a couple of friends, but she was also vaguely unhappy and troubled a lot of the time and it used to worry my mum. Mum did try to talk to her about it but couldn't get anywhere.

She has had some therapy in the last couple of years, but whether it was proper, rigorous psychotherapy or just some short-term counselling, I don't know. You mention EUPD. Her former husband wanted her to go to the GP for MH help some years ago but she wouldn't go. He wondered if she could have what was then called BPD.

@Wimberry The impact of that is she assumed everyone read a situation like her, so if she felt hurt, she assumed everyone would know, and that it must have been intentional or it wouldn't have happened/would have been stopped, if you see what I mean.

This! It's been a common complaint over the years from DSis that we should have known things that we couldn't be expected to know. And yes with the intentional hurt thing too. She seems to think that every time I say something she doesn't like, or if I don't agree with her, I'm doing it intentionally to put her down or hurt her feelings. Hence the walking on eggshells all these years. I think ExBIL would recognise that too. And my mum. Mum never disagreed with or contradicted DSis if she could help it.

If it is EUPD (if) then just to let you know it really isn't always the family's fault. I came across a couple of cases many years ago where it was clear that the causal factor was external to the family and the family, and indeed the individual due to age, could not have had any idea what happened. Not saying that it is EUPD or that this is what happened in your sister's case, but just saying that it isn't always family related. But the powerful emotions that come with the illness can be directed at the person's nearest.

Just as a note, I quoted Eleanor Roosevelt's 'No one can make you feel inferior without your consent', intending to make the point that there is a degree of choice in the matter, and DSis came as close to hitting me as she ever has and couldn't get her head around what Roosevelt meant. This is true, but in certain circumstances (mental illness) people simply can't see it and in fact it can appear to be guilt tripping. Which is not something you could have known.

As @ToSleepPurchancetoDream said, it seems to me the best way of handling this (if you don't withdraw) is to put very firm boundaries in place. After the strong reaction the boundaries evoke, there's a good chance that eventually she will adapt to them ... mostly. If it is EUPD then there are some good books on how to handle someone with this illness though it's been awhile ago, I can't remember the names. The best books show some compassion for the person, while giving information about it and how to handle it.

I was wondering if anyone would mention it and I was too chicken, but it sounds more like personality disorder than autism. Most people with autism I know avoid confrontation and aren’t terribly analytical about their childhoods ( with some exceptions of course).

@DucklingSwimmingInstructress Thank you. I'm guessing you work in this area?

I'm going to have to work on my boundaries. Thanks to @ToSleepPurchancetoDream and @TheGander too. I'm too close to it all, and too bruised today, to be able to see it, if that makes sense.

There is a big crossover with EUPD and autism tbf, or more accurately, women misdiagnosed with EUPD and later diagnosed with autism. Mainly because EUPD is characterized by very strong emotional responses, feeling victimised or let down, and attempts to control close relationships. Autism, without support, can mean emotional meltdowns, feeling overwhelmed, trying to control situations or relationships (eg due to lack of understanding of social situations or high anxiety due to everything feeling unpredictable)

@Kipsmum you have my sympathies, I do think you need to protect yourself - politely, gently, firmly, but you need to. You won't be able to convince her that her expectations are unreasonable, but you can reiterate that you have different recollections, different views, you'll respect hers and that she needs to respect yours. And perhaps consider whether you would benefit from someone to talk to yourself.

Thank you. At the moment she's in a place where merely saying, 'I can see what you mean but actually I don't see it quite the same way' is interpreted as me telling her she's wrong or putting her down. It's why Mum tried never to disagree with her. Having a different opinion isn't acceptable.

If having a different opinion isn't acceptable to her, then you can't talk to her about it. If she's wanting to talk, and for the other person to offer no view or opinion, just to let her talk - that's literally what a therapist is for. A neutral person who will just listen. It's not reasonable to expect you to do the same.
I can understand someone not wanting others to problem solve, that's something we're all drawn to doing and can leave people feeling unheard. But there's a big difference between problem solving, and being 'allowed' to have feelings on something that you are involved in.

I think a PP suggestion of saying that you aren't up for discussing it, and that its upsetting for you. Rinse and repeat. What she's asking of you is what she needs to go back to her therapist for instead.

Worked indirectly with it, but had a very close family member with severe EUPD. She didn't have a good time of it, and neither did anyone else around her unfortunately.

She refused to engage with treatment, but people who do often get better. Age and experience usually help too. Dialectic Behaviour Therapy is the gold standard treatment nowadays.

At the moment she's in a place where merely saying, 'I can see what you mean but actually I don't see it quite the same way' is interpreted as me telling her she's wrong or putting her down. This does sound like EUPD although honestly, it can't be diagnosed online.

From what you've been saying, whatever the cause of her behaviour it's possible that limited contact and refusing to get drawn into highly emotional subjects may be best. If she tries then 'this isn't something we are going to be able to discuss constructively' and change the subject, or ending the contact for that moment might be best. It could be worth saying "I think we should leave this here, and I'll contact you in a couple of weeks". It draws a line, but lets her know you're not completely working away. She might explode but over time she may well respond more positively.

It takes a huge toll on you dealing with this. I personally think that consciously being careful not to get too drawn into what she's saying is vital, although it's very hard to do at some points.

The support here today has been invaluable. I was reeling last night after the hour spent listening and I'm incredibly grateful for wiser heads to run it past. Sometimes you're so close-up to something that you have no idea what's going on. I'll sleep better tonight. Thank you.

I hope you did sleep well =)

Just to say - we are only online and don't know her. It's probably an idea to test out what rings true and what doesn't, because not all of it will.

Thank you, yes. Eight straight hours. Best sleep for several days. And sunshine to wake up to.

And yes, I'm aware of the dangers of relying on people who've only heard a short one-sided version of things to identify what's happening. But it helps to have various perspectives on it and as you say, some things ring true and others don't.

I haven't responded to her and she hasn't contacted me. If it was someone else I'd wonder if they were reflecting on what they'd said and their effect on me and our relationship, but I know she doesn't work like that.

I don't know whether to tell my brother what was said, and potentially upset him with stuff he doesn't need to know, or to keep it to myself. I don't think I want to tell him she wishes we were all dead. I don't want to turn it all into a big drama. Rambling now, so I'll stop, but thank you all again.

This does sound incredibly difficult to manage. I do think it could potentially have a lot to do with autism though. Meltdown can look a lot like irrational anger, and the cognitive impact of autistic burnout is very real. The wishing everyone was dead statement sounds very much like meltdown to me. At these times, the higher order functions of the brain shut off and people are acting from the more primitive parts of the brain, so they are literally unable to reason.

EUPD is a common misdiagnosis for autistic women, as another poster said. I actually don’t believe EUPD / BPD exists, I believe it’s always undiagnosed neurodivergence, trauma or both (and the two usually come together).

I also wonder whether some therapy for yourself might be a way forward? I disagree with another poster that family therapy (with the right therapist) is a bad idea, if your sister would agree to it. But she may not be in a place where she can engage. You do sound like you’re really trying to hear her out and it sounds incredibly challenging.

I do empathise with your sister too, it does sound like she’s a bit of a scapegoat, and I think I would have reacted extremely badly to the Eleanor Roosevelt comment too, even if you had no idea why it might be deeply hurtful to someone with childhood trauma (and trauma doesn’t necessarily mean anyone is at fault, trauma for autistic people can come from a lifetime of living in a world that doesn’t cater to them and where they are perpetually misunderstood).

I think letting her have her meltdown and recognising that ANYTHING you say won’t be taken in, will just add to the processing that her brain is unable to keep up with, and riding it out, is the way forward. Seeing it as neurological rather than behavioural, comparable to a seizure, and recognising that it’s extremely unpleasant for her too (plus she’s likely to have a massive dose of guilt and shame afterwards)… that understanding of meltdown might help you to feel less hurt and overwhelmed by her anger and lack of reason.

I do empathise with your sister too, it does sound like she’s a bit of a scapegoat, and I think I would have reacted extremely badly to the Eleanor Roosevelt comment too, even if you had no idea why it might be deeply hurtful to someone with childhood trauma (and trauma doesn’t necessarily mean anyone is at fault, trauma for autistic people can come from a lifetime of living in a world that doesn’t cater to them and where they are perpetually misunderstood).

Are you able to explain why you would react so badly to the Eleanor Roosevelt quote? I'd be interested to know. When I was feeling down and oppressed and sorry for myself I found it a really useful reminder that I have choices and that I don't have to let others' judgment rule me. I found it very liberating.

This is just a gut instinct, but is this related in some way to the fact that DSis gets really angry if I have a different opinion to her about something? It's almost as if she can't accommodate the idea that there may be more than one point of view and both may be equally valid. For her, not agreeing with her (even on very minor things) is like telling her she's wrong.

Edited to add: If she does have a massive guilt or shame reaction after a meltdown, she never says anything to us. I can't think of a single time she's expressed regret.

This is just a gut instinct, but is this related in some way to the fact that DSis gets really angry if I have a different opinion to her about something?

Ive been thinking about your sister and EUPD (if it is EUPD).

I suspect that with EUPD, people feel deeply powerless and out of control. If you feel and perceive things like that, for someone to say you DO have control seems to imply that they are at fault for not simply getting over it.

The anger if you have a different opinion could possibly be because of a strong sense of right and wrong .... however misguided and utterly self-centred, in the extreme.

If it is EUPD then it's an illness of lack of emotional maturation, probably (I think!) because of not maturing past a certain point or points due to trauma. Or else being knocked back into a much earlier emotional state due to a traumatic event. Certainly my close relative was adult in age but emotionally about 2 years old at times, and im not exaggerating.

I suspect that with EUPD, people feel deeply powerless and out of control. If you feel and perceive things like that, for someone to say you DO have control seems to imply that they are at fault for not simply getting over it.

Right, I can see that. So instead of it being a sort inspirational kick up the bum, as it is to me, she sees it as a criticism. Tangentially, DSis fairly recently (a few months ago) decided to take responsibility for something that I suspected, knowing the other individuals involved, was likely to get very tricky and end up being hard work and causing her major stress. I said, when we talked about it, that she didn't have to do this thing if she didn't want to. She didn't really want to do it but she felt she ought to. I said what I'd say to anyone else — there is always a choice and no one would think any the less of her if she decided to say no. That precipitated a major meltdown and some really scathing messages from her. So that might be because she doesn't feel she has control over anything (?) and so it's a ridiculous thing for me to say: have I got that right? She then went on to do this thing and is very stressed out by it, but gets very angry with me if I try to support her by assuring her she can stop doing it at any time. Again, presumably, because I don't understand that she feels she has no control. No wonder we struggle to communicate.

There have been times when she's really angry with me that I've felt that I'm dealing with a child having a tantrum. There's a different quality to things. Beyond communication.

I'm scouring my memory for anything that might have happened in our childhood to traumatise her and I'm coming up with nothing. But I would have been a kid too, and frankly my memories much before the age of eight are fragmentary: glimpses, visual memories, single images of a moment. No memories of terrible stress or fear or bad events. I'll ask DB.

If only she could bring herself to talk to a therapist. I don't know what I can do to encourage her in that direction.

Tangentially, DSis fairly recently (a few months ago) decided to take responsibility for something that I suspected, knowing the other individuals involved, was likely to get very tricky and end up being hard work and causing her major stress. I said, when we talked about it, that she didn't have to do this thing if she didn't want to. She didn't really want to do it but she felt she ought to. I said what I'd say to anyone else — there is always a choice and no one would think any the less of her if she decided to say no

If she does have EUPD then at a guess, based on what you say, she felt she ought to. A morals-related reaction - 'ought', 'shouldn't', 'what a good person does, what a bad person does' which is a fundamantal black/white thinking - few shades of grey, which is what really exists in most people. So, a sort of internal pressure placed on herself to do what she thinks needs doing, and perhaps what she instinctively thinks a 'good' person should do.

You then said 'no one would think any the less of her if she decided to say no'. It's possible that she reacted very badly because there was a respect-dimension - people thinking more, or perhaps less of her - if she is very fragile in the ego region and highly sensitive to rejection, this may have 'triggered' her. Im starting to dislike the overuse of the word triggered, but it does perhaps fit here.

If this is accurate, then if she's that fragile then she has little fundamental sense of self-worth and little ability to kind of draw a line and say that other peoples' reactions and opinions of her don't matter. She has no control over them (and shouldn't have) but others' bad opinion of her really devastates her.

The things you're saying are reasonable and correct, but she may need professional help that is detached. As her sister you may be too close for her to listen to, specially if she blames you.

There have been times when she's really angry with me that I've felt that I'm dealing with a child having a tantrum. There's a different quality to things. Beyond communication.

Familiar.

I'm scouring my memory for anything that might have happened in our childhood to traumatise her and I'm coming up with nothing.

I'm afraid that -if- this is trauma-related EUPD then it's possible that may literally have nothing to do with your family, and in fact she herself may not know. As I say, I've dealt with someone else who had serious EUPD and the cause was discovered much later and by chance. Bloody tragic situation and the victim will never be 'normal'. It's also possible that there were dynamics in the family that you were not wholly aware of; parents can react differently to one child than to another sometimes and if there was already a form of trauma and there were subtle differences, they may have unfortunately combined and so you, her sister and brother, get the effect as her nearest.

Does she have an alcohol or drug problem? People with untreated EUPD often have an addiction problem. It's self-medication.

I'm hedging a lot of what I say again because of the online thing, and please note, I'm not medically trained.

I don't spend much time with her in person. I think she sometimes uses alcohol to damp things down but I can't say I've ever seen her have more than a glass or two. No medication or drugs as far as I'm aware, but not necessarily something she'd tell me about. She's very private in many ways.

Your account of the way she may process things — her thinking, her underlying lack of self-worth — gives me a new way into understanding what might be going on for her. It certainly gives some insight into her decades-long sense of being inferior and unvalued. I always make a point of crediting her when she does well with something — and she does a lot of things very well, better than I could. The strange thing is that often when I'm positive about her achievements she gets genuinely angry and sometimes upset. But perhaps it's a very sensitive area for her, if she's comfortable feeling less-than.

I've got tickets for a play this evening so I have to go. Thank you again. Have a good night.

I think if it were said to me, in relation to the fact that I grew up feeling defective, out of place and wrong, I’d feel quite angry. Because there was a massive power imbalance, and the whole world against me, when I was just a child. I was supposed to have some kind of internal resilience that was bigger than everything going on around me, than my family dynamics, than bullying by peers and teachers, and not internalise it? And if it affected me, that’s also because I’m not good enough, because I couldn’t be stronger?

I think I’d also find it highly invalidating. The way others behave does give rise to feelings in us, and can make us feel certain things. We can control how we react, but how we feel is still valid?

I can see that you had a completely different perspective on the quote, but I think that’s how I’d have perceived it.

I’m not surprised that she doesn’t voice feelings of shame to you. It would likely feel like confirming what she thinks you think of her in the first place, if that makes sense.

The strange thing is that often when I'm positive about her achievements she gets genuinely angry and sometimes upset. But perhaps it's a very sensitive area for her, if she's comfortable feeling less-than.

This sounds like a PDA profile of autism to me. Praise can feel like a demand (a demand for the behaviour to be repeated) and a threat to autonomy. In order to praise, we have to judge, and that can be quite triggering. So she may not want to be approved of, just accepted as she is?

There have been times when she's really angry with me that I've felt that I'm dealing with a child having a tantrum. There's a different quality to things. Beyond communication.

This really does sound like autistic meltdown, which happens when the brain is overwhelmed by sensory input, which can include internal stimuli from her own emotions. Her processing ability would have been exceeded if that’s the case, and neurologically, she would have lost the physical ability to rationalise.

I'm scouring my memory for anything that might have happened in our childhood to traumatise her and I'm coming up with nothing.

If she is autistic, being in the world and not being understood, not having her needs met, and not understanding why, is extremely traumatic.

The more you say, the more autistic she sounds. Does she have any executive function difficulties? I ask because rejection sensitive dysphoria and emotional regulation difficulties are a major feature of ADHD in females.

Whether she has eupd/asd/both/neither she sounds like a massive pain in the tits to engage with and I would probably ‘detach with love’ at this point. It’s not ok to treat you as her emotional punch bag and she’ll never empathise with your position so what’s the point in discussing it over and over again.

my sil has recently been privately dx with ADHD, she believes she has asd too and has taken it upon herself to tell us we all likely are ND too.

it really pissed me off when she said it to my 17 year old very much NT daughter, then when I said no I don’t think she is asked me how do you know though.
er because I’m her mother and an experienced mental health professional and I think I would have had a fucking inkling!

she then said my dad was autistic because he ‘likes his routine’. He’s a mid 70s retired man, they all like a fucking routine!

There are times when it seems that someone 'sees the light' and then absolutely insists that everyone else sees it too whether or not their new belief fits the other person or not!

If she is autistic, being in the world and not being understood, not having her needs met, and not understanding why, is extremely traumatic.

Lightbulb moment. To me and I think to my brother too, our mum was a kind, good-humoured, hard-working woman who'd grown up being bombed during the war and was stoical and a bit stiff-upper lip but also bright and funny and outgoing. She was part of a large extended family who all modelled what I now see was quietly positive, cooperative, forgiving behaviour. We didn't have a childhood of being constantly hugged and told we were loved, just consistent fairly hands-off parenting. But my sister seems to hate Mum, talks about her not loving us, talks about our childhood as if we'd been brought up badly neglected by a woman who hated us.

Now I get it. DSis had a different childhood from us because what we experienced as a warm, consistent, reasonable parent, she experienced as a woman who couldn't understand and couldn't meet her needs. This comes as such a relief to me. It makes sense of the devastating 'Mum hated me and I hated her' conversations DSis had with me after her death and which I have struggled to forgive her for. And of course, when DSis tells me that Mum was autistic that's her way of explaining things. And why I wrote my OP in indignation at the way in which DSis was rewriting history. The jigsaw pieces are starting to fit together.