Talk to me about gaslighting. Am I guilty?

[BrightSideOfTheMoon]

My adult child has said I gaslight her. I don't recognise it at all. I am distraught. She wants me to talk to her about it so I need to understand more. I do not want to brush what she says aside.

She is vulnerable. And almost certainly neurotypical. Going through hell.

She hasn't given me any examples that I can give to make this more comprehensible - what she gives me is generalised and abstract.

I am not going to post identifying details on a public forum, but if anyone can help me to understand what might be going on, I would appreciate it.

I'm sorry you are going through this.

I'm just wondering - are most of these conversations in writing?

Just thinking about what you mentioned about how when she says something you don't react the way she thinks you should and try to explain what you meant.

I think there is a good chance that she could be interpreting your attempts to explain something she has taken issue with as you attempting to invalidate her perception or feelings.

I wonder if there is a way to try find common ground... So could it be useful to clearly state and acknowledge her feelings or interpretation of event and empathise with that, but then offer your own perspective.

For example:

'I'm sorry that when I said "x" it felt like I was doing "y". That must have been upsetting for you. When I said "x" my intention was to do "z". Please let me know if there is a different way I could have communicated "z" so I can bear it in mind for future chats and avoid this happening again.'

Would that help?

My only other advice is to specifically look up as much information as you can about communication differences between NT and ND people and possibly double empathy.

I could be totally wrong but this could come down to the way you are each interpreting what the other says.

Gosh. This all sounds so bleak.

My daughter is also adult and independent. But I never imagined this wasvwas the future held, and it affects her siblings terribly.

I would be ok with low contact - the occasional text, the occasional coffee. I would give a lot for that.

Thank you @StarlightStalagmite . Yes a lot of the comms are in writing.

I don't think written communication is helpful for us - not least because her messages are long, involved, accusatory and she is highly selective in what she responds to. Her responses lack warmth and empathy. They make tough reading. So I have tried to get away from that method of communication but she is not flexible.

In person is worse, though.

That sounds really hard going especially when you really want to find a way to repair the relationship.

What you've said in your reply does make me think the double empathy thing could be a factor here. For example, you mentioned her replies lack warmth and empathy. If she is indeed neurodivergent, it could be that she expresses empathy quite differently, and may stick to direct communication rather than employing some other social nuances NT people see as ways to express empathy. So, while a NT person expressing thoughts directly could be trying to be curt, some ND people may simply not use the kind of social pleasantries NT people expect. If you assume her messages are just stating 'facts' rather than implying anger, do they make more sense? Or is she explicitly expressing anger?

I'm just asking this because there can sometimes be an issue where ND people don't realise what an NT person is trying to imply through their communication. And conversely, there can also be an issue where a NT person reads too many things into what a ND person says.

Basically - ND person not reading 'between the lines' of what a NT person says/ NT person reading too much 'between the lines' of what a ND person says.

Huge caveat here - not all ND people! But this is one challenge that can come up for some people (including me)

If she's explicitly expressing anger this might be a bit irrelevant though!

I should add I get this may feel bleak so I'm trying to suggest some possible ways to navigate ND/NT communication styles. I do agree with others though that it is perfectly fine to step away from the conversations whenever you need to when they feel distressing.

It does feel bleak. I feel pretty low right now.

She comes over as extremely vulnerable but she is so spiteful and rude. I can't see her being receptive to any approach from me and anythig I did could be perceived as harrassing or coercive.

Healthy boundaries. Just because a person is ND doesn’t give them permission to be antisocial, just as having compromised mental health does mean someone can be unkind. We all have to learn how to operate in social situations.

My learning is to place healthy boundaries. It’s not easy for me, just as it’s not easy for another person to adjust their behaviour. However, this is self-care.

Thanks @Darkerdreamingdescribe . The problem is that she is cutting me off. I guess I need to be patient and accept that there will be no contact for a while, but there will come a time when it is unavoidable, or - optimistically - she comes to see things in a different light and decides to get in touch.

So sad. So heartbroken.

I'm so sorry you are going through this. Reading the whole thread it sounds like she is using you to blame all the bad things in her life on. A sort of scapegoat. Whilst she can still blame you, she is taking responsibility for the problems in her life or acknowledging her own faults.

If she was younger I would say it's fairly typical teenager behaviour but she's a bit old for this. However if she is neurodivergent then she is likely to be immature.

As hard as I sounds I think you need to stop apologising for things you haven't done and refuse to engage in criticisms if she cannot give concrete examples.
I imagine it's going to take some time for her to come round. A good therapist may help her but she may get a therapist that just affirms her beliefs.

She will be living off the drama and it works like a crutch for actually dealing with the real problems in life.

Just read back .... she is not taking responsibility!! Must proof read

Thanks @elozabet .

I don't apologise for things I haven't done. I have said some things to her that I shouldn't have said, and have apologised for that. I have also apologised to her for misinterpreting, not noticing things, etc. I have lost my temper with her, but apologised. She doesn't accept my apologies and insists that I haven't apologised. And she tells other people that I havent apologised, which is a deal-breaker for me.

My own mum did some really shit things to me and never accepted any responsibility for the hurt that came of it, and I didn't want to repeat that. I learned to develop boundaries with my mum and to manage the relationship, because I could see that there was a lot more to her than the times she messed up.

That makes sense with your mum. I did similar with me dad. For me, it was understanding that he was flawed but not all bad and I had to accept the way he was rather than who I wanted him to be. I was in a mess in my 20's and definitely used my dad to blame all my problems on. Do you think this is where your daughter is coming from?

@BrightSideOfTheMoon you have apologised. Please forgive yourself. We’re all only human.

ND can demand others to possess and operate as superhumans, hence a high rate of participation of ND in gaming and sci-fi.

The past can be a source of recriminations only if you continue to allow it.

Also, I can now I was feeding off the drama, otherwise I would have to be content in my own company.

Developing a calm, compassionate relationship with myself is currently my psssion project.

Consequently, I am trusting my NDDD has the capacity to do the same.

I guess, in essence, I am making the mother child separation too, and creating healthy boundaries.

Again, let me leave you in no doubt, it’s really hard and feels so unfair. 😉 But I am beginning to see the possibilities for a good future from the work I am putting in.

That's interesting, @Darkerdreamingdescribe . When I was struggling to understand what was happening and what my daughter wanted of me, the therapist said that my daughter had set the bar very high for me, even impossibly high.

That's a really positive post about how you are setting your goals. I'm sure its been a very long and hard road.

OP, I think you should have some therapy, with a different therapist, focused on yourself. You tried joint therapy with your daughter, and that doesn’t seem to have been productive. Now you should step back, recognise that the relationship is not what you would like (for now), and take some time for self-care and reflection.

Other threads on the topic of estrangement make depressing reading.

Conflicting thoughts... I feel that I need to leave her alone now.

But does that also mean not giving her a birthday gift? Would giving her something be upsetting for her, or would not giving her something be seen as cutting her ouit/punishing her?

would you feel comfortable asking her siblings for help with this.

if they are in contact, maybe they could tell her that you have a present if she would like to have it, if not you won’t send it.

but honestly. You are dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t. No matter what you do. It will be wrong and she will beat you with it.

Forgot to say. You are amazing xx

What if you just had a light touch?

Be consistent with tokens of connection like birthday and Christmas cards, and a routine/predictable text to check in. These are unconditional. You are doing the right thing but maintaining your own emotional safety.

Your daughter can engage as she is capable of but within healthy adult boundaries.

Thank you.

@Aussiebean Thats very kind. I don't feel very amazing at the moment.

I have spoken to her siblings. It's really hard for them and I don't want to put them in a difficult position.

I think asking my daughter what she wants is the best thing.

@BrightSideOfTheMoon that’s the crux of the problem - ND find it a challenge to answer question. Hence, suggest, communicate via behaviour. You then give her time to process the information and respond accordingly. You remove yourself from the ‘what ifs’.

Reading through this is very sad and you have my sympathies. I always worry that I might unintentionally get to this point with one of my DC. Coming from a different angle I wonder if the apologies really are the issue.

If she claims that you haven't apologised, is it possible that she doesn't see your previous apologies very clearly as they were mixed up with the arguments. This difference of opinion could be the source of her claims regarding gaslighting - she doesn't think you have apologised but you are saying you have. The classic "I'm sorry you feel that way" is not an apology for example.

Can you reflect on your apologies as this seems to be a big part of the issue with your DD. Perhaps you could write a letter apologising for all the things you think you have already apologised for. Don't be argumentative, just re-iterate the apologies, no 'buts', explanations or conditions attached, just a straight sincere apology that she cannot dispute. Then leave her alone to come back to you in her own time.

I'm not quite sure what you mean... like give options? "would you prefer A or B?"

I feel like anything I suggest gets flamed.