Talk to me about gaslighting. Am I guilty?

[BrightSideOfTheMoon]

My adult child has said I gaslight her. I don't recognise it at all. I am distraught. She wants me to talk to her about it so I need to understand more. I do not want to brush what she says aside.

She is vulnerable. And almost certainly neurotypical. Going through hell.

She hasn't given me any examples that I can give to make this more comprehensible - what she gives me is generalised and abstract.

I am not going to post identifying details on a public forum, but if anyone can help me to understand what might be going on, I would appreciate it.

100%

My ex used to use these terms a lot towards the end and even after the break up - still now and last year made a not too discreet post about narcissists aimed at me.

It took getting into another relationship to realise I wasn't and she was just toxic

The term can be wrongly used.

@redskydarknight yes that is a possibility that I have explored with her and on my own. I believe its called 'fleas' in therapy speak.

i think you need to ask her what she understand as gaslighting

I get it, her ND is not the issue, I think the issue is that she tells you over and over what the problem is but you don't think it's the 'real' problem so ask her for examples of you gaslighting her. I think she feels this is you gaslighting her so she gets defensive and upset and you dismiss her as not making sense.

I know how she feels. You asked for advice. I say it could be A or B. You say it's not A so I tell you to look at B. You again tell me it's not A. B has been totally ignored.

I don't know if you're doing it on purpose but you are at risk of losing your daughter if you carry on.

I don't follow you, @FjordPrefect ?

It sounds to me as though your daughter is behaving in an abusive way towards you.
Repeatedly asking for apologies and rehashing the past when you’ve already apologised, accusing you of gaslighting and refusing to give examples, blowing up at you in anger when you try to listen to her to try to understand what her grievances are- all are abusive behaviours.
Just the fact you’ve written this post shows to me that you’re a caring concerned mother.
Its telling that she also blew up at the counsellor.
I have no idea what you can do or how to rectify the situation, but I wanted to let you know I don’t believe you are a gas lighter at all.

Thank you...

It's incredibly hard to believe this. I would rather it was something I could fix. I wish I could understand it and be mum again.

Is she having counselling herself? It sounds as if it would be most helpful to her to work out what she is actually angry with you about. She seems stuck in a pattern where the aim is to get the upper hand of you, but that doesn’t bring any resolution and she searches for a new accusation, but there is something underlying all this. Maybe something that seems small to her but actually had a big impact?

I'm ND and had huge communication issues with my ex before I was diagnosed and thought he was gaslighting me. It took having the exact same problems in a subsequent relationship with someone who absolutely would not do that to me to realise that in emotional conversations words seem to have different meanings or significance to me than they do to NT people.

I can focus on small details in a point and not see the bigger picture, which makes the person I'm talking to feel not listened to. And I use phrases like "you always" but cannot really manage it if others do as I get stuck on them being wrong and feel a huge sense of injustice in how they are treating me. It's sometimes like we are speaking a different language. And the emotional overwhelm in these conversations can be really difficult for me to manage. I often only remember the feelings and a sense of what was said rather than the actual words. Could it possibly be something like this happening, which is why she is struggling to give specific examples but is having such strong feelings?

I have had to really learn to stop myself and repeat things back and say "is this what you meant because that's what I heard". And often it is not at all. And I take time out from conversations to give myself processing time. Otherwise I struggle to remain calm or accept anyone else's point of view.

I'm not like this in non emotional conversations, then I am very rational and logical and considerate of other people's viewpoint. And have an excellent memory of exactly what was said.

I don't have any real advice, as I would absolutely not have believed someone telling me that it was me until it was clear to me from it being a pattern. But if this sounds familiar then hopefully it has helped provide some understanding of why it might be happening and her perspective.

That resonates with me, very strongly, @GruffalosGirl . There is a lot of feeling from her, and the big picture is just lost. It feels like conversations get hopelessly caught up in the brambles....

@BrightSideOfTheMoon if it does sound similar, then these are a few things that have helped me in my communication in relationships both with partners and my ND kids that may help.

She needs to feel that you are 100% on her side and want to work on a better understanding. As someone with ND I am really sensitive to criticism and take it as rejection. So being verbally reminded of this in a positive way really helps.

She will think that you have not taken on board and valued what she is saying. I think you have to find a way to acknowledge that, even if that wasn't your intent. It will be hard to move past without that acknowledgment. And work towards her being in a place she can see that about you, but as the parent I find I always have to be the one that apologises first for my part in misunderstanding for my kids to be able to then apologise too.

Trying to take the emotion completely out of the conversation and approaching it with a problem solving attitude has worked really well for me. It removes any blame.

Making it very clear that this is a difference in communication, not that it's her not communicating effectively. I have seen ND people describe it as being on different operating systems, so Apple and android, and I've found that really helps. If she feels that you are trying to fix her to be more NT, or that she is wrong, then I imagine she will find that really hurtful.

For my relationship, as I am diagnosed we talk about the ND almost as a 3rd person in the relationship. It removes a lot of accusations and blame about intent and has really helped.

Stepping away if it becomes heated, but still coming back once everyone has calmed down. And keeping emotional conversations short. I can manage maybe 20 mins max.

I find writing a better way to communicate than verbally. It gives me time to pause and amend what I want to say. And time to process the other persons point of view instead of reacting. And it also provides a record so everyone can see what was said.

I hope some of that helps. It sounds like a difficult time for both of you.

Thank you. That really is very helpful.

The only thing she wants to talk about is how I've wronged her and how my responses are wrong, almost as if she's trying to smash the square peg into the round hole, whatever it takes. It's debilitating. I feel very dark at the moment.

Really, really struggling with this today.

She's so angry. I try really hard to understand and respond to what she is saying. But she 'reacts' rather than responds. And more accusations of gaslighting. She wants to go back into therapy but there is no way I am going to do that while things are like this. It would be destructive and harmful to both of us. And I just feel so sad and broken.

I agree with this, maybe turn the discussion away from whether it’s gaslighting or not, and just try to understand what she is upset about and what she wants from you in order to move forward.

Are there any activities you could do together that you enjoy? Is there a way you could just try to spend some mother/daughter time together rather than re-hashing past disagreements?

Have you had any concrete examples from her?

Does she have a ND diagnosis? Was this really late in life?

Could the "gaslighting " be you thinking she's fine when she wasn't , or the way she perceived the world, sensory inputs etc. compared to you?

Really silly example here , but like you saying the jumper isn't itchy and it's fine, when to her it WASN'T fine.

What happens if you just agree with her and apologise and kind of, just listen rather than putting your side across and debating the meaning of gaslighting /getting defensive.

She lives a plane flight away. And I try very hard to have other conversations... She doesn't want to talk about anything else, and will only communicate via text.

I really try not to just debate gaslighting.

Sorry I don't think anyone can help. I just feel so lost and broken.

She is being assessed for ADHD (is it still called that? - the terms change all the time).

How do the texts start? Say you haven’t hear from her for a day or so, how will she start up with her accusations? I know you want to remain anonymous but if you want support you have to give people something to work with.

I'm sorry things are so shit right now. The thing is there's not much you can do, because, even if you were "guilty" you can't work on yourself and change anything without concrete examples and situations. I'm not saying you are , but bar saying yes to everything she says and apologising, there's no change that can meaningfully happen. If it is something you do subconsciously , that she perceives as gaslighting , you'll just keep doing it which will be even more frustrating for her.

Any chance of a face to face meeting and time spent together soon?

After a long period of no communication I'll ask her how she is, in a very gentle way, and she'll reply with a single long message which includes a reference to the need for me to address this before we can have a 'functioning relationship'. There is no quarter given.

I feel that she is quite invested in there being a lot of drama and conflict. She refers to us fughting, when I don't see it like that. I feel like I'm just trying to get to a peaceful, constructive conversation. I feel like she's trying to keep me away... but then she wants me to engage in this stuff whether I want to or not, and she wants us to go into therapy again which suggests otherwise.

Maybe just agree to the therapy so a third party can work through it. You sound like your at a stalemate so what have you got to lose?