Talk to me about gaslighting. Am I guilty?

[BrightSideOfTheMoon]

My adult child has said I gaslight her. I don't recognise it at all. I am distraught. She wants me to talk to her about it so I need to understand more. I do not want to brush what she says aside.

She is vulnerable. And almost certainly neurotypical. Going through hell.

She hasn't given me any examples that I can give to make this more comprehensible - what she gives me is generalised and abstract.

I am not going to post identifying details on a public forum, but if anyone can help me to understand what might be going on, I would appreciate it.

We did therapy before. For a year. We were only in the same meeting twice - the rest was emails and 1:1s withe therapist and me and therapist and her. It nearly detroyed me. Then she fired the therapist.

I think this is just lying. Gaslighting would be saying "no, you ate the last one. Don't you remember?" Or "there weren't any biscuits. You must have imagined that there were."

Gaslighting is about making someone doubt themselves and their 'reality' in order to gain some kind of control - over the other person or possibly over their own emotions and vulnerability.

So if you got an invitation to the theatre from a friend for Friday and gaslighting partner agrees to be around to take care of the children/dog/aging parent, but Friday comes, you need to leave, they are not home and you call them only to discover they are in the pub or in a very important meeting. Instead of apologising they get angry and say you had told them next Friday, or some other rubbish, and then you feel you are supposed to apologise to THEM for spoiling their evening/very important meeting or whatever.

Coming back to re-read this thread after a disastrous Christmas.

Got completely blanked by her, although she was staying with her sibling 20 minutes away for some of the time. No reply to any texts or messages at any point in the lead up or over the season (which I tried to make very respectful and not demanding). No acknowledgement of my gifts.

Eventually I rather bullied her into a meeting but for various reasons it was a disaster. Yes - hands up - including that I put pressure on her. But also because she lied to her dad about one of the reasons she was angry with me (she said she was waiting for an apology for something that happened a couple of years ago and which I have apologised for multiple, multiple times). Also she insisted that the only conversation she would have was about how I gaslight her, and how the therapist (the one she fired) had agreed with her that I gaslight her. As I can't go to the therapist to discuss this (any contact between me and therapist being expressly forbidden), and the examples were not forthcoming, it was just a pointless and frustrating discussion which blew up very quickly.

No idea where to go to from here. Just broken hearted.

I did not usually think this is an answer but maybe you need to go LC for a while. Give her a year or two to grow up, see if her perspective changes at all. A bit of time and distance may help get her anger to subside.

If other things in her life are going all right (career etc) then just let her be.

Sadly she is taking that decision herself. It's very clear she doesn't want to hear from me and she has closed the channels. Her life is quite turbulent at the moment, so inevitably | am worried.

I don’t think she maybe understands what it means. I’ve noticed the dcs and dh seem to throw it around a lot nowadays with no context - even mil said that fil gaslights her the other week - it seems to be something of a buzzword. I’ve been using it for years!

If I tell someone they are gaslighting me I also tell them exactly what it is they are doing for me to reach that conclusion.

The basic definition is someone telling you something they did/said didn’t happen, causing you to question yourself. So dh will say something and we’ll have a whole discussion around it. Then a day or a week or whatever later it’ll get mentioned and he’ll deny it happened. Il then say “what, you don’t remember when we were discussing such a thing and you said xyz?”

My dh’s answer to this tends to be “well, I remember it differently” - it’s infuriating.

I have struggled to get her to explain it with examples but I think she is referring to times when I answer something differently to how she wants me to. So she'll say x and y and instead of me apologising (I do apologise if I feel that is the right response and authentic) will try to explain my responses.

OP if she will not give examples then you can't apologise to her. Explain to her you need a clear example of what she intreprets as you gaslighting her, or the conversation can go no further. Her quoting examples from books has no bearing on what you may have done or not done. Gaslighting is definitely done with intent so she is incorrect if she claims that is irrelevant. Stay calm and just repeat that you need concrete examples of your supposed behaviour.

My understanding of the term "gaslighting" is when soneone deliberately lies to someone else about something that did ( or did not) happen. In order to deliberately mess with their head by making them doubt themselves.

Only you know whether you are doing this or not.

I am absolutely not deliberately trying to make her question her reality or mess with her head.

The problem for me is that when we are in any kind of dialogue she never responds to what I say, e.g., acknowledging an apology or following up on something I have said that might be useful to talk about.

If the daughter is the child of the abuser or, witnessed the abuse in her younger years, sge may have developed a personality disorder just like him. Stop apologising for shit unless it actually warrants it. Refer her to her gp for her behavioural issues or ask the councilor you spoke to what they think needs doing. If a personal disorder is forming, it needs to be dealt with before it solidifies. She may continue to call you a gaslighter for implying it's a her issue. But tough shit. Tell her 'I've owed my mistakes. Own yours, see a therapist'.

Stop apologising. It sounds like you don’t even know what you’re apologising for and it’s just cementing her view of you as a perpetrator.

Go low contact and refuse to discuss it. She can’t give you examples because there aren’t any. She’s really abusive and I’m sorry it’s happening. What do other family members say about it?

Surely gaslighting is more about deliberately creating psychological pain??

so denying you ate the last biscuit - a (white) lie

denying you ate the last biscuit and stating that in fact the other person ate it, and don’t they remember-and then saying ‘well this just shows how careless you are’ is gaslighting.

also OP it sounds like you are not gaslighting her. Gaslighting isn’t something that can be done by accident as it’s a deliberate attempt to alter someone else’s perception of events and those who do it wouldn’t apologise.

I think at most you are maybe coming across as a bit dismissive of her POV but again as you’ve apologised for that I don’t know what else you can do.

Thank you, @Autumn38 . I don't think I'm dismissive at all but its been hard to have useful discussions. Everything gets heated very quickly.

You mentioned that you think she is neurodivergent. I think asking if your behavior is gaslighting is the wrong question? No one here can answer that without details you can't provide and let's be honest if you were the kind of manipulative person who consciously or subconsciously distorted things to manipulate others then you would do that on online forums too. I am NOT saying you are gaslighting btw just that it's the wrong thing to focus on.

She is saying she feels really hurt and wants apologies for things but when you apologize she brushes it off or just repeats the same complaint another time. She is also trying to exercise a lot of control over how this is discussed.

It sounds as if at some point she felt very hurt for any number of reasons and is still processing this. Being neurodiverse may make it hard for her both to identify the underlying feelings and name them, and to explain them to others. So she focuses on specific incidents she can describe because that is feasible - and in doing so you both get trapped in this unsatisfying cycle where she is trying to imperfectly tell you something massive, you hear part of the story, apologise and hope that will end matters but because she is still trapped with her distress she hasn't heard you. The next time she tries to address this you are back to square one or worse because now there is less trust and more frustration.

I would agree with others re backing off but not from a place of anger or judgment. You clearly care deeply about her. Perhaps you need counseling for yourself to help you handle this as it sounds really painful. But perhaps all she needs from you is to hear acceptance, an acknowledgement that things were unhappy and you don't really understand but you care about that and want to hear more whenever she is ready. Don't approach conversations with her looking for right or wrong answers about the past. Just listen in the expectation that she is trying to tell you about pain she has felt and she is finding this hard. And maybe you apologizing cannot put this right. But being heard and acknowledged by those who really care about us is incredibly powerful - don't underestimate how much that will help her when the time comes.

I work with neurodivergent young adults in acute MH settings - I think it is v hard for neurotypical people to really see what the challenges they face are like and how overwhelming they can be. The things that are difficult and overwhelming for them can be quite unpredictable so this isn't a case of parents getting it wrong or children being bad - just that when circumstances are tough and communication is challenging that can cause a lot of pain, and for ND young people that can be expressed in very self destructive ways. But we also witness a lot of recovery. The way you describe her wanting to have total control of the therapy process sounds very familiar and if you are to engage in therapy make sure it is with someone familiar with autism and other forms of neurodivergence. That need to have to control is not manipulation in the conventional sense, therapy is really challenging for people who struggle to describe their own emotions or follow descriptions of other people's feelings and clients often handle that by wanting a lot of control over the therapy space. The parallel work you did is a good solution but it is still very demanding for neurodivergent clients and it isn't at all surprising she chose to end it abruptly when she found the feelings it triggered overwhelming.

So yes back off. Look after yourself. Don't worry about what you have done right or wrong here. This is not about that. Do know as her mother just saying I want to hear when you are ready is the most caring thing you can offer.

I agree.

An important thing here is also to consider what the things are that you have had to apologise for in the past. Sometimes an apology does not mend the hurt. And intent can be irrelevant.

She may be using the term incorrectly, but equally, she may feel that you trying to reinforce that you have apologised for whatever it was so it is in the past is a form of gaslighting. Your apology may not have felt like one, or may not have been enough that she can move past it.

You've been told not to contact her therapist. The one she no longer goes to?

The therapist isn't allowed to tell anyone about who she sees due to GDPR. And can't tell you what she told your daughter.

However I think I might go I her and ask for advice on how best to approach the situation.

Stating that you do not want anyone to know you are speaking with her.

If she wants to take you on fine. It'll cost a bit but could help!?

Sounds like your child wants you to be the whipping boy for all her upset. Whether you caused it or not.

Difficult situation. Perhaps an apology again each time she wants one might help. Worded carefully. Does no harm to repeat the apology. Just to keep the peace.

However until she finds a way to take responsibility for her own life choices I think you'll still be the whipping boy, whatever you say.

Thanks for all the replies. Lots to think about.

The apology thing, there were profuse apologies in the moment and many times afterwards. I get that she might still be upset, and may want to revisit what happened and why it was so upsetting for her, but it is another thing to tell other people that no apology has been made. It feels like there is quite a high likelihood that she is getting advice and support from people who are not being given the full picture, and will therefire be reinforcing her sense of injustice.

@DeliciousApples the counsellor was someone my daughter and I found together. They worked with both of us for an extended period.

@Grahamhousehushand I think your response has been the most useful yet. I don't know nearly enough about neurodiversity or how it is affecting her. I didn't suspect it at all in her childhood, and it was never suggested to me. I recognise the hyperfocus and the need to control every interaction and decide what we can/can't talk about, how I'm allowed to respond. She won't talk about herself or her emotions at all - it's all about what I do or say or how I react. She particularly hates it if I show my distress - the things I've apologised for have been things I've said when overwhelmed by frustration, incomprehension and occasionally anger provoked by how I'm experiencing her behaviour.

I am in a similar situation with my ND daughter.

After a great deal of soul searching, I understand my DC is gaslighting me.

Not offering specific examples is a classic way of off loading onto another. Generalising to the person who loves you most achieves greatest impact. The person off-loading doesn’t then need to consider their own behaviour.

Hold your nerve op.

@Darkerdreamingdescribe sorry to hear you are going through the same.

I am so sorry that this has continued for so long without any resolution.

sending you much love and strength to you and your daughter, in the hope she can get some peace.

I’m not anymore. DD is an adult. Has capacity to be independent. I am now low low low contact. Feel if DD holds that opinion of me and there is not the capacity together to find a way forward, I do not need to be the repository for these feelings. The last 20 years have been hard. But even a convicted criminal reaches the end of their sentence. And I’ve done my time.

Please let me leave you in no doubt, I love my daughter with all my heart and would do anything for them. Being low contact has been a cumulative event and I doubt DD even realises I am low contact. However, this gentle withdrawal is demonstrating that healthy boundaries apply to everyone in our lives.

@Grahamhousehushand I agree, you post is full of compassion and insight.

My post sounds really harsh. But it does come from a place where ‘the black and white’ thinking is the barrier, which can be beyond the capacity of both parties to resolve.

I think the issue is still so little is understood of the processing females with ASD experience. For adult females the damage has been done and there is no way of recovering from it. The black and white thinking allows no possibility for forgiveness or compassion.

Low contact can be a kind way of making it possible fit the person with ASD to not be retriggered of the memory of the hurt.