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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Wife wont let mum come round at Christmas

875 replies

Unjeffeson · 14/10/2024 10:47

Background:
My m(41) wife hates my mum. There wasn't one incident but she just thinks shes selfish and manipulative and just wants everything on her own terms, including spending time with pur daughter. She feels my mum tried to dominate when our daughter was born and has never considered her feelings, and is rude and catty to her. My wife also thinks I take my mums side too much when i try and explain her point of view or try and create compromises. This has led my wife to feeling like my mother is ‘the other woman’, and she sees red almost every time we discuss her.

Things have been stable if unpleasant for a while, with my wife agreeing for my mum to see our daughter every couple of months for an afternoon. In the meantime my mum is on the phone to me regularly about how depressed its all making her.

Whats happened:
My mum has asked if she can see us on Christmas day, so she doesnt have to be by herself. My wife has said hard no, she doesnt want her anywhere near us at xmas. Mum can see us at some point around the end of December but not on Christmas day. Wife says we need to maintain a united front to set boundaries with my mum on this.

Ive been managing my mum’s feelings on all this for two years now as well as putting my wife’s desires first. It is important to me that my daughter knows her grandmother and that she doesnt get dragged into it. When we argue about it my wife makes ‘it’s me or her’ noises and i refuse to break up my family for what my mother wants. But dealing with mums misery on the whole thing is very hard.

What should I do? Is it okay to say no to mum at xmas so long as we have another date lined up?

And i guess more importantly - had anyone here had a mother in law you feel is so unpleasant that you prevent them visiting, keep them away at xmas etc, in spite of the difficulty it causes your SO? Where’s the line of tolerance (if there even is one)?

OP posts:
thepariscrimefiles · 14/10/2024 14:49

Growlybear83 · 14/10/2024 12:22

I've just read the OP's update, and whilst I agree his mum sounds difficult, tactless, and self absorbed, I really wouldn't see anything that he's said as being grounds to refuse to have his Mum round on Christmas Day. Apologies if I've misread the update, but if she seriously only sees her grandchild every couple of months. then that really isn't vey much at all, and I can see why she is pushing to spend more time with her grandchild. But then this is Mumsnet, where every mother in law is second in their level of evilness only to Satan.

Well luckily, OP's wife isn't a martyr like you and won't put up with her MIL's awful behaviour.

It sounds as though her MIL ruined his wife's early days of motherhood with her insensitive comments about breastfeeding and just taking her baby downstairs away from her without her permission, among other things.

She is toxic enough for OP's brother to go no contact with her after her horrible comments about his weight.

The OP sounds kind and wants to put things right but it should be his mother that is making every attempt to apologise and to change her behaviour. However, it is probably too late for this for this to be fixed enough for his wife to resume a relationship with her MIL.

MaggieBsBoat · 14/10/2024 14:52

I cannot abide my PIL, they are both highly manipulative and selfish. My DH is an only child though and they have zero other family. I know my DH loves his parents, especially his DM therefore I put up with seeing them when I have to and I know Xmas is important. I do this for my DH.

He knows I do it for him. If I didn’t it would have more negative consequences on my marriage than if I just deal with them on occasion.

It’s like a deal we make when we get married.
I do hope OP can find a way to bridge this gap and keep all parties happy.
In the end his loyalty should be with his wife of course but hopefully the reality can be somewhere in between and she will meet him halfway.

Here4thechocs · 14/10/2024 14:54

PicturePlace · 14/10/2024 10:59

Your poor mum! I would hate to think of my mum alone on Christmas day, and it would be a huge issue for me if my husband tried to drive a wedge between me and my mum.

Exactly this. I would rather spend the day with my mom at hers , since wife won’t have her than have her spend Christmas alone. You’re with your wife EVERYDAY. Does your wife still have her mom ? What’s her relationship with her own mom like ?

MyLoyalEagle · 14/10/2024 14:55

Oh dear.. how difficult it is for you to be op.

Freshflower · 14/10/2024 14:58

I feel for you , difficult situation to be in. I think your mum and wives relationship is their business. If your wife won't prepare to improve things , that's your wives decision and I would respect that. Unfortunately these kinds of toxic MILs can do a lot of damage mentally and can ruin families and experiences of baby hood for the first time mother , which is totally unforgivable. In this situation I would respect your wife doesn't want a relationship with you r mum. Get agreed boundaries in place for your child to visit grandma without your wife there. You can take dc there , get some arrangements in place. Christmas day you can take dc there for a couple of hours. You are right your mum should not be using you as her emotional support , I feel for you but somehow I think you can be loving and firm with your mum. Put some boundaries in place yourself. It's not your wives fault your mum is depressed. Has your mum ever tried to apologise for her behaviour, that might be a start if wife was to ever consider slowing fixing things

Scenty · 14/10/2024 14:58

Here4thechocs · 14/10/2024 14:54

Exactly this. I would rather spend the day with my mom at hers , since wife won’t have her than have her spend Christmas alone. You’re with your wife EVERYDAY. Does your wife still have her mom ? What’s her relationship with her own mom like ?

Despite the OPs Mums difficult nature , I tend to agree.
OP you haven’t answered as to whether you can visit Xmas morning or is distance an issue. That would be my compromise

Beautiful3 · 14/10/2024 15:04

If you try to force your mother onto your wife, she'll get angry and leave you. You'll have to agree with your wife. Have your mother over another day, like boxing day or new years eve/day. You cannot force her into your wife without consequences. For example if you invite mother over on Xmas day, I guarantee your wife will either go elsewhere or refuse to make Xmas dinner. It will ruin the whole day. You both have to agree a day for her to come over.

italianlondongirl · 14/10/2024 15:04

Maybe I’ve been around terrible women (!) but I don’t think the OP’s mother is THAT bad.
Commenting that she found breastfeeding easy… yes insensitive but happened years ago! So many people ( including those my own age) told me how easy they found it and I had to resort to formula and get over it!!
Telling son he was fat… maybe he was at risk of diabetes/heart disease. Maybe more parents should be upfront about obesity.
Having an outburst in the car about her ex husband… she’s human for goodness sake. Has no one ever ever had an outburst about anything?
Took baby to a friend’s house when she was looking after it rather than letting it sleep quietly. Maybe she needed a break!
These are all irritants but should not be a reason for cutting contact.
I dread my son having children. I shall just keep my gob shut at all times

DoreenonTill8 · 14/10/2024 15:05

WannabeMum22 · 14/10/2024 12:39

This is absolutely insane - you believe OP should prioritise his mother to the extent he should divorce his wife and go for 50/50 custody just so his mother gets more access to his daughter??? No wonder you spend Christmas alone. Sounds well deserved.

It's probably the bat shittest thing I've read on mn! Encouraging someone to divorce so their mum gets what she wants?!

  • @Unjeffeson re Taking baby to a friend's house when left to look after her rather than getting her to nap quietly
Given you don't live near your mum, where did she take dd and what mode of transport,?
TwigletsAndRadishes · 14/10/2024 15:05

I've not read the whole thread, just the OP so I'm basing my response on that alone. There's a lot of 'my wife thinks/says XYZ about my mum' but not many clues about what you think is really going on and which one of them is the more 'difficult' personality here. It's also hard to know whether you do unreasonably take your mum's side over your wife's, or whether you are completely fair, measured and rational but your wife won't be happy until you've severed connections altogether, because she sees this as a battle where there can only be one winner.

What I will say, is that regardless of the answer, you do not need your wife's permission to take your daughter to visit your mother. Your wife can dislike your mother all she likes, and maybe she has good reason. But unless contact with your mother is actually harming your daughter in some way, she doesn't get to unilaterally control access to her, or use her as a pawn or a bargaining chip to score points against your mother. She's your child too. You have some agency here.

Stop trying to mediate between them and stop trying to put over your mum's POV to your wife. That's a pointless exercise. Even if you truly believe that your mum is the innocent party in some of these disagreements, your wife is not going to change her opinion of your mum. She will just accuse you of being disloyal and under your mother's thumb. Accept your wife's position and respect it. But take control of this now, so you don't spend your entire marriage in conflict over this. Tell your wife you will never again expect her to spend time with your mum, or communicate with her in any way.

However she also needs to respect your position. You do still want a relationship with your mum, and you want your child to have one too. She can control the relationship she has (or doesn't have) with your mum and that's fine. But she doesn't get to control the relationship you have with her, or the one your child has, via the connection to you. That relationship can function perfectly well without any need for any involvement from your wife, so long as the three adults here all agree to behave like adults. Take your child to see your mum as often as you like, within reason. If your mum is farly local then take your daughter for regular, short visits. If she is quite a distance away then facetime your mum with your child, so you can manage longer gaps between in-person visits. Don't allow your wife to dictate to you how often or when this happens. It's really none of her business.

If your wife refuses to accept this, (unless there is some very damning information about your mum that will be drip-fed later) then the person being selfish, controlling and manipulative here is your wife.

With regard to Christmas Day, even if your wife agreed to host your mum under sufferance, there is going to be a terrible atmosphere all day and surely you don't want that? It's just not worth it. Equally, it's not nice knowing your mum will be alone, so you need to find a compromise and your wife needs to accept that compromise.

If you want to see your mum at Christmas or very close to it, then see her. Your wife does not need to come with you, but you certainly do not need her permission to go, or to take your child. If your mum is reasonably local then you could visit for a couple of hours on Christmas morning while your wife gets the lunch/dinner ready. Failing that, visit her on Christmas Eve or Boxing Day for a good two or three hours. Have a meal with her, take some of your daughter's toys with her so she'll be content to stay a while. Don't dash in and out. That still leaves plenty of time for your wife to have the Christmas she wants, which excludes your mother (but no doubt includes hers.)

And your wife should accept that the price she pays for successfully removing your mum from her life, is that you will sometimes need to split your time at weekends, Christmases, birthdays etc, to take your child to visit or spend time with your mum at times that are important too.

Icanthinkformyselfthanks · 14/10/2024 15:10

@Unjeffeson , in your own honest heart what do you think? Are your wife’s actions reasonable or not?
My view is that if you think she is completely reasonable then you should support her but that doesn’t mean you should not see your mum and take your children to see her, you and your children are entitled to a relationship with her.
If your wife isn’t entirely reasonable then you have to accept that she places what she wants (to annex your mother) before her care for you and your children. If that’s the case I’d be asking if I wanted to spend the rest of my life with someone with nassacistic tendencies.

saltysandysea · 14/10/2024 15:11

Scenty · 14/10/2024 14:58

Despite the OPs Mums difficult nature , I tend to agree.
OP you haven’t answered as to whether you can visit Xmas morning or is distance an issue. That would be my compromise

well the MIL does have another son but he apparently wants nothing to do with her as well. If you look at the common theme maybe the MIL should take a closer look at how she treats people. Some people just don’t tolerate been treated badly and put in boundaries to protect themselves.

The OP has been placed on a pedestal & told he is responsible for her happiness- he is not. OP is just wanting to avoid conflict & not address the unhealthy relationship he has with his mother.

sandyhappypeople · 14/10/2024 15:14

With kindness op, I think you are just so used to dealing with your mums behaviour, it is now normal to you and you only see a choice of having to accept it or not, it's not your fault, it's how you were raised, but it's not a normal loving relationship by most people's standards.

There is a third choice here though, and that is that your mum recognises her own behaviour and changes it for the sake of maintaining a relationship with your wife, she may have a chance of doing that if you stand up for your wife, instead of quite obviously siding with your mum.

You should only ever have to meet halfway in a compromise, as soon as you are giving more than you are getting (as your wife would be in this case), then it will only lead to resentment and worse.

I'd leave it well alone and maintain a relationship with your mum and your child by yourself, stop trying to railroad your wife into changing her behaviour when your mum is absolutely unwilling to budge an inch.

CuteCillian · 14/10/2024 15:15

Is there a way you could pop over with DD at some point on Christmas day? I hate to think of your DM being alone, even though she does not sound a very nice person.
Separately, sit down with her and explain that her past behaviour towards your DW has made you both unhappy, and is there a way she could see to improve the situation. If you explain, as you have on here, that your DM is the third most important woman in your life as you now have a DD and a DW to consider, hopefully she may apologise to your DW, or at least tread more carefully around her. Your DM has already lost contact with your brother, point out she will lose you as well if she cannot be kinder.
If you do this I hope your DW may be prepared to let your DM back into your lives. It would be tragic to end a marriage by you choosing your DM over DW. Kindness and compromise can be shown by your DW if she is confident you support her feelings fully.

Katypp · 14/10/2024 15:15

There's a lot of projection going on in this thread.
The way the Op has written it, it's impossible to tell who is being unreasonable and who isn't, yet the majority of responses are blaming his mum, with some serious assumptions being made on the basis of one OP!
To be reasonable, the MIL would have to have been seriously badly behaved to justify her spending Christmas alone, but we don't really seem to care much about anyone but ourselves these days it seems.

kittybiscuits · 14/10/2024 15:16

Unjeffeson · 14/10/2024 12:06

Thank you everyone for all the messages. There are a lot, very quickly, but I'll try and address the main points.

Examples of mother being awful, in wife's opinion (and not good IMO either):

  • Outburst in car 3 years ago about how we moved to an area of our choice rather than thinking about being nearer to her
  • Long conversation about how awful my dad (her ex) was / is and how she's a victim (dad did leave due to getting someone else pregnant, but him and I are on good terms now)
  • Inconsiderate comments when wife was struggling to breastfeed, about how it was easy for her. Similar comments about other aspects of baby rearing.
  • Argument with wife about how she just wants to be part of our lives and feels like she's being pushed out
  • Taking baby downstairs without asking wife's permission when she was recovering from birth
  • Taking baby to a friend's house when left to look after her rather than getting her to nap quietly
  • Pushing for more visiting time (asking for weekends away etc) even though we've said we can do once every couple of months.
  • Hassling my brother to exercise and commenting on his weight (brother won't see her now because of this and many other things, he says)

Wife and her have barely interacted for over a year now, bar pleasantries. Damage is apparently done, wife has explicitly stated that she has no interest in improving the relationship ("people like her are toxic forever").

My view on the situation:

  • My mother is selfish and inconsiderate and isn't willing to back off when asked.
  • She lets her feelings get the better of her and suffers from verbal diahorrea which leads to thoughtless comments.
  • She was very loving and caring when bringing me up and is always offering to help.
  • She makes me feel I'm the only one with a key to her happiness as 'family is everything'.
  • I resent the fact she never made more effort to move on from my dad and I am effectively her emotional support. Perhaps I have enabled this but it's just kind of happened since I was too young to know not to.
  • My wife is being very hard-nosed about it all but I was never a new mother and don't know how much damage it has really done, so I have to take her at face value that my mother causes her mental health to suffer.
  • I also feel she makes ultimatum-like statements when we discuss this which are unkind when I am just trying to work through a problem.
  • I don't like that my wife is unprepared to attempt to improve the situation.
  • I don't care what happens to me, I just want a compromise that everyone can make peace with and doesn't affect my daughter's happiness (ie doesn't break up my family - I was a child of divorce and I don't ever want that for her).

Yeah there are 2 problems - your Mum's behaviour and you trying to defend it.

Your wife is not being 'hard-nosed' - she just has boundaries.

It's likely you will be single soon and then you can enable your narc mother to see your child in your own contact time. No doubt your mother will use this time to slag off your ex wife to your child.

Are you sure you don't want to have a little re-think about what the problem is?

thepariscrimefiles · 14/10/2024 15:20

PicturePlace · 14/10/2024 14:03

According to the OP...

Who has also tried to make allowances for a lot of his mum's actions/behaviours so I actually think he is downplaying rather than exaggerating the situation.

Plus pretty much all Mumsnet posts are 'according to the OP', apart from a very few occasions when someone's DH has found their wife's thread and adds comments with their side of the story.

nosleepforme · 14/10/2024 15:23

This is a problem in a lot of marriages because men don’t know how to handle this correctly
men and women see things differently and to most women your behaviour and responses over time seem dismissive of your wife and like you’re sticking up for mum, and that your wife is in the wrong and mum is more important. I get you don’t realise this and you might be in shock, but a lot of women, I’d dare to say most, will feel this way.
best advice I have is to take a step back and imagine your wife’s pain, having in mind she was a new mum so all that, and then add the pain of an unsupportive husband. Take all that in and imagine what she feels like. Go to wife and say you’ve thought about it and realised her pain and how you didn’t handle it correctly and you’re sorry for your part. Take ownership! Don’t make this about wife vs mum. Just support your wife. If there’s an overspilling of emotion from her, don’t let it turn into a fight, just listen and acknowledge her pain, even if you disagree with her point of view. Let her tell you how she feels. I’m sure you’ll be shocked and tell her that was never the intention and you love and support her and you acknowledge your part. Just stick with that.
when time is good, explain to your wife you love and support her. What can you as a husband do to make her comfortable and secure im her relationship with your mum. You’d be surprised but she’ll probably have some ideas or needs. Hear her. Take it in. Don’t argue. Explain that she’s the most important and that mum isn’t taking any part of that because you’ll never let. Then explain that you would very much appreciate spending time with mum and want that for your kid, if there are boundaries or whatever you want to figure that out with wife because she needs to feel comfortable. And you’ll communicate the boundaries to mum and stick by it!
good luck
but remember, even though you might not see it, your communication has caused this upset, so your communication needs to fix it. For your sake, your kids, your wife’s and your mums. No arguments or blame, just acknowledge your part.

eta: read update. This is hopeless, you let your mum treat wife like trash and cross so many boundaries! That’s really bad! Still apologising to wife might help her heal so you can still do that.

Bthebestucanb · 14/10/2024 15:24

sharperthanaserpentstooth · 14/10/2024 14:25

You may have answered this already but why does your mum want to be part of your Christmas Day this year? What has she done in the past?

I know people will say "it's only one day" but it's an important day for your immediate family and how you share that time with other relatives is up to the both of you. See your mum sometime close to Xmas but not the day itself - it has too much meaning and I'm not sure your mother can be trusted not to ruin it!

This nearly had me laughing. So, when sons & daughters grow up their parents are no longer part of their immediately family & they are relegated to 'just other relatives' What nonsense.

Catpuss66 · 14/10/2024 15:27

MounjaroUser · 14/10/2024 11:03

It's hard to see what your mum has done wrong. Could you post that from your wife's POV so that we can understand? It's hard to know whether you're married to someone awful or whether your mum is awful.

Otherwise why don't you take your child on regular visits to your mum?

They could both be awful & the husband is caught in the middle. Just a thought.

DaniMontyRae · 14/10/2024 15:27

Growlybear83 · 14/10/2024 11:58

No, my mother in law was a deeply unpleasant person, and never had any insight into her behaviour. Nothing would have made her change her ways. I don't think it made my daughter miserable having her there on Christmas Day when she was young, although we used to dread her arriving. But I'm not heartless, and I certainly didn't see it as martyring myself. I married my husband for better or for worse - it turned out that his mother was part of the 'for worse' but I made the best of it, as the vast majority of people in real life do. It seems to only be on Mumsnet that people have this weird problem with mothers in law, and cut close family members out of their life at the drop of a hat.

It would hardly be dropping contact at the drop of a hat given how you describe her behaviour. It would have been standing up for yourself and your family. Its not only on mn people have a problem with their MILs - you had a massive problem with yours in real life, you just refused to do anything about it and put up with awful treatment.
As for saying you don't think your daughter had a problem with MIL being there for Xmas when she was young - does that mean you know your daughter had a problem with it as she grew older? And you and your DH clearly had a problem with it but you always put this horrible woman first. Protecting your family isn't heartless.

Supperlite · 14/10/2024 15:29

OP you need boundaries in place between you and your mum. You are NOT her emotional support, you are her son. It is totally inappropriate for her to be moaning to you about your wife and feeling miserable.

It is not your problem if she doesn’t have anyone else to talk to, or if she feels she has no happiness in life outside you. That’s an impossible responsibility to place on a person’s shoulders.

She obviously has a problem with emotionally manipulating you and, perhaps, emotionally abusing you. Go to therapy.

It sounds like your wife feels unsupported by you and that is why she is making ultimatum demands. It is likely you can’t see her position because you are so manipulated by your mother. Go to couples therapy and work on being a team and understanding how to put each other first in the face of emotional trauma caused by overbearing parents.

Anonymouseposter · 14/10/2024 15:32

5128gap · 14/10/2024 12:31

Your mother has trained you to be controlled through emotion, and your wife is taking advantage of that. Both women know you are suggestible, able to be manipulated by threats and that your priority is conflict avoidance, and are both using those traits to get what they want. You need to stop seeing this as a competition between them with you as the passive prize, and take back control.
You can see or not see your mother as and when you choose. So decide when that will be and tell them both. You can also input equally into any decision anout how much contact your children have with your mother. So decide what you think and be assertive. What you shouldn't do is directly impact your wife negatively, so no bringing your mother home when she's there, but yes to visiting your mother at her home by yourself.
If your wife decides to leave you because you continue a relationship with your mother that doesn't involve her, then that would probably be for the best as trying to cut a partner off from their family is a red flag. If your mother stops speaking to you because it's not going her way, then leave her to it. She'll be back when she needs you.

This is a very helpful post.
Your mother is , no doubt, genuinely upset because she has made you and your daughter the centre of her world. She probably lacks insight into how tactless she was to your wife.
Some of the things you list in your second post still leave it unclear just how bad her behaviour has been. (E.g. saying she found it easy to breastfeed when your wife was struggling, was this a silly, tactless throw away comment or was it really meant to be nasty? Taking the baby visiting when your wife thought baby should be napping, a mistake or selfish?). The outburst in the car reveals that your Mum is very emotionally enmeshed with you.
Your wife sounds uncompromising and sometimes inconsiderate towards you, she lays down the law but doesn't acknowledge that it's all stressing you out and you're doing your best to manage the situation.
Stop letting both of them bully you and push you around. You can't force your wife to have your Mum visit on Christmas Day but she can't stop you from visiting your mother at some point in the day, or taking your daughter Christmas Eve or Boxing Day.
Don't be afraid to say honestly how you're feeling about it.
Similarly, if your Mum makes a fuss because she isn't getting exactly what she wants don't shy away from explaining exactly why and how it makes you feel.
Your feelings are as important as anyone else's. If they are going to shout at you, sulk, cry or whatever you can't control that-but you can control what you decide to do. Having a straight talk with your mother could be a good thing.
I agree that there is a bias against older women on MN and men are expected to support their wives unconditionally, even if they are at fault. However your Mum does seem to think she can be as rude as she likes (see her treatment of your brother). Show her she can't.
I feel sorry for you OP, stop allowing both of them to manipulate you and push you around.

Bthebestucanb · 14/10/2024 15:33

italianlondongirl · 14/10/2024 15:04

Maybe I’ve been around terrible women (!) but I don’t think the OP’s mother is THAT bad.
Commenting that she found breastfeeding easy… yes insensitive but happened years ago! So many people ( including those my own age) told me how easy they found it and I had to resort to formula and get over it!!
Telling son he was fat… maybe he was at risk of diabetes/heart disease. Maybe more parents should be upfront about obesity.
Having an outburst in the car about her ex husband… she’s human for goodness sake. Has no one ever ever had an outburst about anything?
Took baby to a friend’s house when she was looking after it rather than letting it sleep quietly. Maybe she needed a break!
These are all irritants but should not be a reason for cutting contact.
I dread my son having children. I shall just keep my gob shut at all times

A good answer italianlondongirl

redskydarknight · 14/10/2024 15:41

Bthebestucanb · 14/10/2024 15:33

A good answer italianlondongirl

And using her son for emotional support from when he was young child?
That's the worst thing in my mind - and the rest is a continuation of her entitled behaviour.