Married to someone with Asperger's/ASD/ND: support thread 13

[Daftasabroom]

New thread.

This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.

It's complicated and it's emotional.

The old thread is here.

Ive been doing a lot of reading and soul searching lately and I wondered if it was helpful as a ND persons experience. I’ve been looking into Narcissism and Neurodiversity because I’ve worried I’m one and not ADHD. What I’ve got it down to is that the underlying feeling of them both is often Shame. I feel that feeling always and my 8 year old is encountering it also so it’s in my face. I don’t feel the same as others but I am ashamed that I don’t because I’ve been shamed for 40 years by the world. I have hidden the shame from myself by people pleasing and behaving in a way they gets a positive response. But I can’t wear this mask all the time because it’s not who I am. In situations you will see the unmasked version of me.

My ex husband wanted a version of me that I tried to give him but it wasn’t me. He wanted more affection but I don’t like it that. I tried masking but it made me feel so unsafe and he just got more and more angry. I was too ashamed to say look I don’t like this level of affection and then too worried that this assertion would lead to regection. Same with many things, I don’t value money like he did.

I have let shame ruin my life. I wonder if a lot of your partners lack the ability to look deep and realise they are living an inauthentic life because they are ashamed that they are different. What you see in certain behaviours is who they are really. They don’t love you the way you think, they don’t think about you the way you think. What they do is mirror the best way they can because thats the only way they “think” they should behave because rejection is awful.

I am now in a ND/ND relationship and although we are totally different we don’t mask to each other because I’m not ashamed. I don’t think of people the way NT people do but I’m no less worthy. Everyone needs to be in a relationship with someone who enables them to be mask free. I’m sorry I don’t mean anything bad but I do wonder if some people would be taken aback if the ND person was brutally honest about how they really feel about you. I’m pretty sure some of the actions are quite loud tho! I don’t know why ND people often stay in NT relationships and end up burnt to a crisp with the weight of the mask.

"Understanding the thought process behind their behaviour won't stop the way you feel . It won't stop the process of emotion and reaction in your head. " This insight by @Rainbow03 is profound. Could you elaborate further?
Do we try so hard to understand in order to stop feeling bad/at all? I think this is what I have been doing . It is probably terrible for mental health.

It becomes a case of avoiding our feelings and gaslighting ourselves by preemptively explaining and excusing their behaviour.

@Seriesthree just wanted to send a handhold. It’s okay to leave, that you’re not having your needs met is enough 💐

@Rainbow03 I’ve been thinking a lot about shame because it’s one of my DH’s core issues and seems to sit behind his avoidance which has been so destructive to our relationship. On the one hand there’s that Devon Price book that looks at shame as something systematically experienced by ND ppl and others for being different.

Yet actually I also noticed that my youngest kid has had a propensity for feeling shame that’s almost like a personality trait. He simply does not like to be perceived by others it seems as that feels like a threat. That makes me think it’s a difficult issue that has personality and systemic aspects.

We also discovered DH finds any angry tone in my part blaming even if the content of the words is gentle and sympathetic. Blaming equals shaming also, so for me shame is quite a specific circumstantial thing attached to me doing something. To him it’s like a global experience with an existential quality.

Narcissim isn't about shame. Narcissism is about fragile egos. ADHD and other ND absolutely can make the person feel shame. Shame because they're different. Shame because they've probably been told they are wrong/bad/inappropriate their whole life, when either they can't help it or didn't mean it. Shame because they've often been bullied and targeted.

I completely agree that ND people need to feel they can be who they are. I also believe that ND people (who are generally high functioning etc) can and should learn what is and is not okay overall while simulataneously learning to accept when they can't and/or figuring out alternatives accordingly. It's a silly little example, but DS knows already that he doesn't want to ever work in an office in a traditional 9-5 job. He knows he won't function well, that he wont' enjoy it. But I'm thrilled that he knows that because he also already knows that there are other things that he is NATURALLY better at and that he can leverage to have a long-term successful life.

Thank you. I do know I can leave, unfortunately I fucked my finances by staying at home with the kids for a long time, one of them was very unwell. I’m back in work now, part time, and if I am honest I like our life. Nice house, he’s no hassle, he is really good our finances, I can pretty much please myself, he always knows which bin needs to go out, those are good things!

I met someone through work that is a really nice bloke. There was nothing inappropriate, it just struck me that he made eye contact and recalled things I’d said from a previous meeting. It makes me sad, this random nice bloke know more about me than my husband because random bloke finds me and what I have to say interesting. it’s pathetic, in the true sense of the word.

@Rainbow03 this is really eye opening. Thank you for sharing.

And yes I agree shame is a huge part of ND. I can see it in dh a lot too.
And the idea that an angry tone is assumed to be a blaming, therefore shaming, tone too.

I think you’re right there.
NO and a quick explanation.

I can see how it could work well with dh.
Id have a hell of a lot of work to do on myself to manage that regularly 😂😂

Something else to talk about with my therapist 😁😁

I think it is perhaps just human nature. We’ve often invested so much, had kids, “created a life” (often based on projections and not truths). The fear of leaving and the complete unknown and the finances and all the stress of this is so overwhelming that our brains are desperately trying to help us out by looking at how we can makes a change to the other person so as to take this feeling away. If we can understand then we can stop feeling so down. But it doesn’t work. I also think it’s hard to look at and accept our own part and also it’s hard to understand that people wear masks and they aren’t being authentic. In my own case my dad has just passed away and I was sat wondering if this was my life forever until I die. I was dead emotionally from the grief so I feel it helped me just walk away basically in this I don’t give a fcuk anymore way. Then I had a bit of a breakdown and have put myself back together in a much more healthy and accepting way.

Shame is the most powerful and the most painful of all emotions. Imagine how this feels to some who is ND. Before the age of 10 they’ve had 20,000 more negative comments on average than a NT child. ND people feel emotions as a physical feeling and they have no resilience and no skin to absorb any of the pain. Imagine what behaviours a child would put in place to stop this feeling. It’s simply unbearable even as an adult. It floors me.

It makes me sad, this random nice bloke know more about me than my husband because random bloke finds me and what I have to say interesting. it’s pathetic, in the true sense of the word

That is very, very, very lonely when a random bloke remembers more about you than your husband.

Hi I'm looking for some help please. I have suspected my DH has none diagnosed high functioning autism for a long time. We have managed our ups and downs and I have tried to understand him as best I can and we are good together. My problem is my DS.

I will try to keep this short but there is a lot to pack in. He is 18 and has recently started at Uni. After only 4 days he was referred to MH services and assessed for bipolar. Was discharged not needing a diagnosis of BPD but we were told he had an 'acute stress reaction' and should be referred for an ASD assessment. Within a few weeks he was back to just about coping but has now had another crisis. I'm really struggling as I feel I should have noticed when he was younger and he could have been helped. This has all come as such a shock. I also don't know how to 'manage' him in this heightened state. He won't listen to me and thinks he knows what every one is thinking, even me and he is so wrong but doesn't believe me when I tell him. I seem to make him worse whilst to trying to get him to calm down. I was on the phone to him all night last night and eventually had to drive to uni at 4 o'clock this morning.

We have an assessment booked with the first appointment this week and we have a weekly counsellor in place which is helping but is not available 24/7.

However what I really need is help with advice on how to help him during a meltdown. If anyone is aware of any crisis service we could sign up to that he could contact for immediate counselling I think that might also help if such a thing exists. I almost lost it this morning with frustration that I was obviously making things worse.

@LivLuna my DS has just graduated after we pulled him out of year 1.

First of all make sure he is safe, if you have to go and get him, do.

Make sure he signs you up as guardians or consultees (I forgot the proper term) he's an adult and you no longer have legal access to his support network.

The first few weeks is really tough for everyone. For an AS kid the transition can be pretty mind blowing. Focus on the transition and building confidence and routine.

Do not worry, you or him, about having to retake a year, or two. Do not worry about loans and fees. Take it one day at a time. Step by step. If uni have student mentors this can be brilliant.

Hang in there.

@LivLuna I really need is help with advice on how to help him during a meltdown

Do you mean shutdown? Just take it one step at a time. This might mean micromanaging. E.g. have you showered? Have you brushed your teeth? Breakfast? Etc. What lectures do you have tomorrow?

Uni should be best placed for 121 counselling.

@Daftasabroom Thaank you for taking the time to respond and sorry I'm not sure of the right term. He gets overwhelmed in social situations and then doesn't seem to live in the real world. I tried to understand stand what had happened to upset him but he couldn't give me a coherent story although I do know it involved rejection from a girl he was trying to make friends with. I think I made it worse trying to get to the bottom of it as he reacted badly to my questions.

I did bring him home but he wanted to attend lectures so DH has gone back with him and will bring him home again later and yes we are micromanaging him again. Luckily we are not far away.

I do think he is safe and he has found a few safe places around the Uni.

He loves the course and won't entertain pulling out as he doesn't know what he would do all day if he did. Academically he is more than coping. He has made some friends and last night was talking about signing up for a yr 2 flat just before it all went wrong. He has a monthly meeting lined up with the Uni to see how he is getting on but I am not aware of any counselling offered directly and I have looked. What we (or maybe it's me) need is help in how to manage the crisis situations of which I am sure there will be more so I would like to be better prepared.

I would definitely get a proper assessment as Borderline personality Disorder usually developed around this age. It can cause episodes of shut down or disassociation around rejection. Sorry if I wrong in this.

This is not the place for a diagnosis but the health services seem to think its maybe bipolar?

Lots of kids have a breakdown or breakthrough if symptoms at the age of 18+ or when they leave home. It is not something you would have noticed.

The pressured speech, racing thoughts, grandiosity, paranoia, belief that he can mind read, disordered sleep cycle etc…could be the product of drugs, medication, illness, or the start of mental health issues. The differential sounds like it might include bipolar with mania and some delusions or schizophrenia but duration of symptoms is part of the diagnosis and this is all quite new so they can’t yet say.

I am so sorry you are going through this.

Ignore my post if it doesn’t track with his symptoms.

The shame discussion is interesting as I don't think my H feels shame or guilt, or at least not for how he affects other people. He would feel shame if he was publicly dressed down for a bad piece of work at his job, but he does not ever feel shame for the impact of his behaviour on me or the kids. Presumably because to feel shame he would need to see a connection between his behaviour and me/ the kids, and he would need to be able to empathise with how me/they were feeling, and he can do neither of those things. Its actually made me realise that feeling shame and guilt are actually pro-social emotions as they incentivise the shame/ guilt feeler to repair the relationship with the person they hurt and to avoid repeating the behaviour that caused the hurt.

The assessor at the autism service asked me how H reacts to consequences to his behaviour, and I replied that he doesn't. There are consequences a plenty and he hates them. But he is incapable of seeing them as consequences, as he cannot link his behaviour to how I am reacting or responding to him (or how anyone else is).

He doesn't mask. I suspect because he has so little awareness of what other people are thinking of him, even when they are quite clearly showing displeasure and dislike of him for how he is behaving. He just doesn't pick up on this.

I only have experience with my AS DS, have you tried your GP?

Sounds like my daughter who gets really cross when she gets in trouble at school because she can’t see what she has done wrong and the punishment is completely unreasonable. She will often get cross at me and say why are you making me angry, ashamed sad etc. When you ask why do you think the other person is upset she’ll respond because she is stupid. I guess it’s personality based, she’s a stubborn monkey.

Sounds like DW when something doesn't go her way.

I have a friend who is dealing with this with her DC - one of whom is diagnosed ASD and ADHD and one who is not diagnosed but who I suspect is also ND. She spends a lot of time attempting to explain this, coming up with scenarios to relate back to this when her children's friends do things that upset them etc. It's bloody hard work but she is slowly making progress. With her DS (the NT one) it took someone treating him exactly how he had treated other people for him to start recognising the behaviour as a problem.

@LivLuna Autism and BPD and attachment issues have often been mistaken for each other, though the Coventry Grid helps differentiate between them https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/sites/default/files/file/virtual-school/coventrygrid.pdf

Generally it's been females who've been misdiagnosed with BPD when they are actually autistic, but it's not exclusive.

Its not stubborness with my H, although it would appear like that to an outsider. Its just he genuinely cannot understand there is another point of view or thought or experience or feeling that is not his own.

I'm actually going crazy at the moment. Yet another row with H. I need to sort out our study/ store room for our youngest. Eldest is 11 and really needs his own room. For SEVEN years H has known this day would come. I've tried repeatedly to have conversations with him about what we are going to do with the stuff stored in the study/ storeroom (largely books still in the packing boxes from when we moved), he has reacted angrily to every conversation. I've put off sorting out the study for years because I am scared of his reaction but it really has to be done now. So I started to go through all the stuff in the study, throwing away some of my stuff, finding other places to put the stuff I want to keep and moving his stuff into the hall for him to sort through. And he has gone mental. Shouting and yelling, and making weird angry, anguished noises, like I was torturer who had just told him that his bollocks were going to be cut off, shouting furiously about how I am shitting all over him, how I think he deserves no space in his own house, punching and kicking the walls repeatedly whilst making those weird noises. Just had a complete meltdown. And he feels completely justified in this response. He has now started making nonsensical arguments about how having a house with books is really important to kids ( the kids have their own book shelves with loads of books. The books sealed away in boxes for the past seven years have clearly not hindered or advantaged them).

I really feel like I cannot cope anymore. I feel like I am going mad dealing with his insanity. Nothing can be normal or a simple conversation. He has no self insight. He never, ever has anything constructive to say or any way forward to propose. He shuts down everything I say to try to make things better. He won't even acknowledge I am trying to make things better or resolve a problem instead I am ' horrible and spiteful and ( this a new one lately) shitting all over him.' He'll never, ever, ever, ever, ever be able to see that I have a reasonable point or that I am being helpful or trying to make things better. Let alone appreciate me. How about saying ' Hey wife, thanks so much for getting started on the study, really appreciate it. Let me give you a hand with that.' That would never fucking happen would it?

@DucklingSwimmingInstructress i think it’s an important point.
A good friend of mine has been diagnosed with all sorts befute she was diagnosed autistic. But the previous labels stick even if they’ve been misdiagnosis…..

Oh @MetooOP what a horrible experience for you.