I've been on a few times about ongoing probs but cannot decide what to do for the best

[curlywurlywee]

About 6 weeks ago, my h hit me (the second time he has done it) and hurt me in the small of my back (handprint and raised red weals, lots of pain). It was over something really petty, our dd had a friend round and they were hitting him and laughing. He got in a strop (due to probs at work) and came into the kitchen clutching his side and saying he was in agony and saying I should have intervened. I told him he was the dad and should be able to deal with it himself and they were only 5 year olds. With that, he said, "I'll show you how much it hurt" and he lifted my shirt up and slapped me with all his strengh on my back. Not sorry afterwards in fact left the house with me in agony and came back later still not sorry. I went out cos I couldn't face him and when I came back he locked me out of the house for a bit. This was the final straw for me. We have been having probs for year. He has a stressful job and I am his whipping boy. To give you examples of what he's like, I gave him a lovely children's book about fathers for fathers day and he got angry and said why had I bought him a children's book, should have spent more money on him like a CD and told me to get the book out of the house. I was distraught and destroyed the book, which he then got angry with me for. He doesn't like me using my mobile, doesn't like my friends coming to the house, dislikes my friends and is very antisocial. Has a go at me if there is a food item not in the house that he wants (I should be able to maintain the house properly and never run out of anything).

Basically, he has now admitted that he has put me through hell over the last five years and accepts that him hitting me was unnacceptable and that we should split. He is seeing a counsellor who has told him that he behaves like a child most of the time due to his strict upbringing, but he went for counselling a year ago and still hasn't managed to sort all this out and behave like an adult, although he has improved.

My dilemma is that should I stay and give it another go or should I end it? I don't believe he will ever change - he behaves like a spoilt little brat most of the time - it's in his personality and I hate it.

I have one friend who thinks I should give it another go and others who say, get out quick. I've got a teenage dd who hates him aswell from a previous marriage. I feel stigmatised about having two failed marriages (first h went off with another woman). I can't make a decision and am feeling really low today. Have been really strong and think I'm still in shock from the violent episode - still can't cry properly but not coping with 5 year old very well.

I am so glad it has helped you Jasper. I will search out the sites that I foud helpful and post links to them but, the book really is my bible.

It's quite enlightening and also exciting when you realise that you are not to blame for your partners behaviour, I'm excited because it means that rather than leave a man I love we may be able to make this work and keep our family together. That makes me happy.

TFM I'm afraid I don't know what CAT means. What is it and how do I go about doing/getting it?

Curly, I have CAT so i think if you just go into your profile and edit it to allow other MN'ers to contact you I should be able to CAT you.

thanks tfm
i read all the reviews and also the exerpt on th amazon.com site.

it is very interesting. I am glad you feel able to stay together as a family and i hope you can work things out

cww CAT stands for contact another talker.

there is a bit at the top of this page - the blue bar, to the right of it which you click on

Thank you Jasper. I hope so too. xx

Jasper, sorry I didn't see your post from this morning. After H hit me (the second time), I told him it was over which he had a hard time accepting. However, he now seems to want to end it aswell. Hope this makes sense. I've suffered so much with him and his childish behaviour for the last five years, triggered by problems at work. I then become the punchbag.

TFM I admire you for your strength in staying with your P and it has made me think. However, if I am just myself, my H seems to hate me after a certain length of time because I have done so many small things to wind him up which he stores away for months and then blows. All the time I've been blissfully unaware that I've upset him. It's hideous and I have to watch everything I do or say or more to the point, don't do. If this is your experience, how can you live with it? It's killing me slowly and I can't envisage a life where I have to live with this forever, always fielding his petty punishments on me because I've upset him by not doing something that I wasn't aware I had to do or a random comment that I thought no more about but he has brooded on for months. It's hell. He ends up hating me for everything. I can't take it anymore.

Yes curly, it is my experience. What is he like inbetween these times though?

I have learned not to take it personally. When a PA finds himself getting too close intimately or emotionally they will do just as you describe. They hate themselves for being needy and being so dependent on you, it is not you they hate. They cause rows to put distance between you to make it more bearable for them. When they feel such neediness they feel out of control so they have to do whatever it takes to regain control.

I get through it by enjoying the good times, by loving the man I know that he is underneath his insecurities, by taking care of myself and putting my needs and those of my children first. I have to. I don't rely on him for anything other than what he is prepared to give.

No, it isn't an ideal way to live but at the moment it suits me to live this way. I am not unhappy. I am learning more and more about my P which makes me understand and be able to continue loving him, I don't like him some of the time though

A short while ago I was ready to leave him, I had one foot out of the door but, for once in his life he listened to what I had to say, he admitted he had a problem and he is working hard to put things right and to change. I love him enough to give him this chance but, like I said in a previous post, I am more than prepared to leave if we are unable to work together on this.

At the moment you are more than likely exhausted, you will being wondering what you have done to deserve this, why he hates you so much, you are probably feeling desperate. You have to understand, regardless of whether you leave or stay, this is not about you, it's about him. He is projecting his own feelings onto you. He isn't the powerful man you probably have him marked as, inside he is like a scared little boy.

Also Curly, I have learned to walk away, I just don't stand there and let him rant at me. I simply walk away. I don't try to reason with him, I just let his childish comments go over my head. It does take a lot of self control though, especially when you just want to hit them round the head with a shovel

I don't want to live like this forever too, thats why I am working hard to change it. It is working too, as long as i can maintain it

TFM you have a lot of self-discipline in walking away and not taking his stuff on board. I'm not sure I'm as strong as you because I find it hard to control myself and just start getting angry and upset. H has known for a year now what his problems are and he has improved, up until recently that is. However, his first port of call is to blame me for everything, the house, my friends, my parenting, my mobile. So although he is aware of the way he is, he is unable to take a step back at the moment when he reacts. This only comes maybe days later which I feel is too late because the damage is already done. Interestingly, I was looking up PA on the net and one site talked about strong, controlling mothers and weak fathers and this is exactly what sort of a home H comes from. Is this the same for yours?

Oh yes Curly, you could not get a more controlling mother than P's, his father could be described as weak i suppose but i call him quiet . He grew up with very little love or affection as both parents are unable to show their emotions. The only emotion I have found that they are both able to show easily is anger. Even as Grandparents, they are not the kiss and cuddle type, prefering to buy gifts or treats as a way of showing love.

Also Curly, I was and still can be like you and get upset but, knowing and understanding more about him has helped. I haven't always been this detached from it. The mixed messages of 'I love you but I hate you' have had me in bits, not knowing my own mind but finally, after nine years, I feel I am getting somewhere. I feel in control for a change.

No one would blame you for leaving Curly if that is what you want to do. You do not have to justify leaving just as you do not have to justify staying. The love I have for my P has faded a lot, he has chipped away at me over the years until this time I thought there was nothing left of me, nothing left for me to give or for him to take. I still feel a little bit like that but, I just want to give it my best shot. If i do end up leaving it will be because I want to leave, not because he has forced me to. I want to walk away knowing I tried my best to make my relationship work, for me and for my DC's. But just because I am staying, doesn't mean that I know I have made the right decision. Only time will tell that.

I would say at the moment you need some space, you need some time to recover from this latest epsisode. You need to get your strength back.

TFM - you are so wise and I feel for you so much because I know how much it hurts. Your P's parents sound exactly like my H's parents - identical in every way.

Have just had to calm down my dd from a shocking, violent tantrum and I'm so worried about her. She has been horrendous for the last two days and I've tried talking to her but she just says she's upset about daddy being on his course for the weekend and because she has not seen much of him lately, which is true. If she's like this now, what will it be like if we split up and she doesn't see him as often?

I'm in bits, I can't cope anymore. I feel like lying down and disappearing cos I can't see a way out. Haven't felt this depressed in a long time. In me it seems to come out in worrying about my health.

Need to go and do battle again cos I need to pick up my eldest. dd won't want to go out - wish me luck or something. Thanks for talking to me - you are very kind.

And you are very welcome. I will help you all I can. I wish you all the luck in the world!

As for your DD, I understand totally where you are coming from. But try not to worry about what will happen if you do split up, after aperiod of adjustment she will be fine. It's never easy knowing what to do for the best when there are children involved.

You can cope Curly and you will cope. This latest episode will pass and you will find yourself gathering strength again. If I could suggest one thing to you it is to find out as much as you can about PA. Read the book I reccommended, it will be like a light being switched on in a dark room. The more I read the more excited I got at my discovery, I sat there talking out loud in agreement with everything I read. Read it for you Curly, read it so that you can absolve yourself of blame and so that you can recognise that none of this is your fault. I promise you, you will feel much stronger for it. xxx

curley - please please don't use your dd's current behaviour as a reason not to split. Imagine how much worse it will be if you don't All she wants is to protect you.

" I am just myself, my H seems to hate me after a certain length of time because I have done so many small things to wind him up which he stores away for months and then blows. All the time I've been blissfully unaware that I've upset him. It's hideous and I have to watch everything I do or say or more to the point, don't do. " - you can't live like this. He wouldn't.

How are you this morning Curly? I hope you are feeling stronger. I am thinking of you xx

Hi Tribpot and TFM, had a really awful evening - cried for hours and am feeling really depressed. I don't want to damage my dd - it's just that I don't know what to do for the best. Both choices are awful, splitting up or staying and I would be guided by what was best for my youngest - I can handle myself just about but I don't want to ruin dds life. My eldest hates him and can't wait to get away but youngest adores him - what a horrible mess. Last night I almost gave in and thought that staying would be the less scary option and now this morning I think I have no choice but to split. How can I make my mind up in a sensible way?

Felt comforted this am by speaking to a friend who said that her kids were hideous over the last few days at the end of the school holiday so maybe she's behaving badly because of that - she was better behaved this morning and I managed to talk her down from a strop.

I've got a bad cold, thrush, pain everywhere - falling apart at the seams!!

I need to make up my mind one way or the other but it's so hard.

Sweetheart, you need to give yourself a break. How you are feeling is perfectly understandable but, there is a tendency to overthink a situation and end up driving yourself mad

I have been thinking about your dd and her rages and did wonder if she is suffering from a little bit of separation anxiety herself. You say she adores her daddy and the reason she gave you for her behaviour was not having seen much of him. How old is she Curly? (Apologies if you have already mentioned this) Does your H ring to speak to her? Is she is contact with him whle he is away? If not then maybe a phonecall to him would help her.

Ok, now for you. There is no harm in making your plans to leave. I think this will help you to rationalize. When I got to the end of my tether it was my 'escape plan' than was my saviour. It helped me to focus on something positve and it took the emphasis off the 'right now'. I opened a 'running away' account and arranged for a direct debit to pay money into it. I also contacted the local womens refuge and enquired about support groups for abused women. They were really lovely and so helpful and me me feel less alone. It was such a comfort knowing I had a way out should I have needed it, which at the time I thought I would do. Unfortunately, I have no money of my own and nowhere to leave to so, it would have meant moving into a refuge for a while. I had a bag packed and all my papers in order, I had everything prepared, ready for me to go. This helped me to clam down, to be able to sleep, it took a lot of the immediate pressure off me.

Do you have somewhere to go Curly? Do you have the finances to be able to leave, to rent privately?

Could I just ask Curly, when your dd has a rage how does it make you feel? Do you feel in control of her or a little bit freaked out, scared even, of what you are having to deal with. The reason I ask is that occasionally, my dd will turn on me and it shocks me, it reminds me of her dad and how he can switch. She is a sweetheart most of the time but she certainly has her moments!

TFM dd is 5. She hasn't seen much of H in the last two weeks so this is possible. Need to work on that one if the worst comes to the worst.

I really hope things are better for you. It sounds as though you went through a terrible time but were very sensible in making plans. I suppose you felt like you were more in control.

I am just about to start a job so will have a bit of financial independence then what with Working Tax Credit etc. H has agreed to go and rent somewhere once I start earning and the house is on the market so when that's sold, I will have enough from it to put down a large deposit on a small property hopefully.

I'm just so sick of all the hurt and I know what it's like to split up because I've done it before and it was awful and I don't want to go through it again but will if I have to.

You are a very brave lady TFM and very lovely.

Thank you for your lovely words Curly

I am so pleased that you will be financially independent. You seem to have everything worked out too It's good that H has agreed to rent somewhere, that will give you the space that you need.

I can understand how you feel Curly, wanting to avoid going through another divorce. This is my 'second phase' too, I was married for 12 years to an abusive, controlling man. That involved a lot of physical violence on his part. I don't know where I got the strength from but I managed to leave him and never look back. I left with nothing, I had 75p to my name and I lived in temporay accomodation that was dismal but, it was a palace to me. I loved that house because it gave me peace and happiness. I had 3 children the youngest of which was only 3 years old and although life was hard and gave me no easy ride I survived and i was the happiest I have ever been.

I don't know if this will help Curly but, would your dd like to draw pictures for daddy or write him little notes? I did a lot of this with my dd (age 5 also) during her dad's absence this time. I kept her close to him by encouraging her to draw pictures and them putting them in his underwear drawer so he would find them when he was home. (he didn't leave us but he would deliberatley come home late and spend all of his time out of the house - phew! )
I know it's hard because you probably don;t want to even mention his name but it is worth the effort for dd.

FWIW Curly, I think you are a very brave lady too, just very tired and worn out at the moment and probably full of panic. I am thinking of you, a lot! xx

TFM, it seems we are kindred souls. I was in tears reading your post. You've been through so much and I was very encouraged to hear of your happiness when you got out of that awful situation. How many children have you got? Did you have any from your previous relationship?

Do you often wonder what it's all about? Views on men etc. It would be so easy to hate them all wouldn't it but I know there are some good ones out there as all my friends seem to have them!

We are just doing our best aren't we. My thoughts are with you too.

Sorry TFM I missed your previous post about dd. Yes, I do feel a bit shocked when I see the anger and I panic because I don't know how to handle it. I go from screaming back, which def does not work. Lately, I've been trying to stay really calm and just offer her a cuddle and she does calm down eventually. However, I don't want to let her get away with really awful behaviour so she always has a punishment, like no choc or cbeebies at all for the day. This is working and I think she's getting it. So hard to know what to do. Really liked your idea of writing notes for daddy - it's a connection isn't it.

I have 4 children it total Curly, my eldest daughters are 23 and 21 now and have successful lives/relationships of their own so I feel very proud I have 3 from my previous relationship and then dd with my P.

I used to wonder what it's all about, I used to spend a lot of time analysing. When I got divorced I was determined to be alone, just me and my kids, then a flat and a cat when they had grown up and left home
I stayed on my own for 3 years and they were the absolute best years of my life. I was known as the 'Iron Maiden' because I really did dislike men at that time, I refused all offers of dates and i had the most barbed tongue and could cut men to the quick. I was terrible

I thought it would be different with P, I thought he was different and he wouldn't hurt me but now I realise it wasn't about him, it was about me, I was still the same person. I have experienced abuse in one form or another all of my life, by my parents, then my husband and then, my P. I realise now it is me who has to change and that is what I am working on. I know he has problems, he has issues but, I don't hold him responsible for my happiness. I am in charge of that!

As I feel now, at this present time, I never want to live with another man again. I feel I could enjoy a relationship, a healthy relationship, I don't dislike men now but, I would not want to share my home with one.

I have a dream of my 'retirement' where I get dd all grown up and then I get myself a little flat No man moods, no man mess and no man hassle! Perfect! xx

With regards to your post about your dd, I feel exactly the same way. It's quite scary isn't it? And like you, I want her to understand that her behaviour is unacceptable.
Something that I have learned from the book is just to say directly and calmly, "I am really upset that you are so angry at me", and I leave the room. This stops my dd in her tracks and she offers me a cuddle and she even apologises. Then she will tell me what she is actually angry about because she doesn't want me to think it's my fault. It works quite well.

This worked with my P too when he was in a rage during his last episode. I told him outright that I was petrified of him and he suddenly stopped raging and for a moment he was the man I loved and he said in the most gentle voice "then we had better find you somewhere to live", he seemed so upset and ashamed, scared of himself almost. I learned from the book that a PA feels really sorry if he has hurt you for that is not his intention. You just have to let him know which is easier said than done sometimes!.

TFM how did you get so wise? I feel exactly the same as I have experienced abuse from nearly all the significant men in my life (not my dad) and I have to look at my part in this. I have always had very low self esteem and have let people treat me badly. Abuse does awful things to people - you basically believe you are no good and that it's acceptable for men to treat you badly because you have no worth. I'm working on this aswell. I agree with you - the thought of a place of my own with no man around sounds like bliss at the moment.

It sounds like you've done a great job with your two eldest dds - all down to your strength - you should be very proud of yourself.

Do you think you were unconsciously connecting with men who would not treat you well? I often think I must do this, although unwittingly and would like to know how not to do it.

That is a good question Curly. In the first instance I thought I was connecting with men who were caring, confident and loving, now though I do believe that I was connecting with men who were needy, that I thought I could help, rescue and show that the world really is a good place. They both told tales of woe about previous relationships and as they seemed to love me I thought I would be the one to show them what a good, loving relationship was all about. Ha!

I mistook control and jealousy for love. It sounds a bit perverse but in the beginning I loved that my P didn't like me to go out with friends, I thought it meant he loved me so much he just wanted to be with me.

In my case it was my mother who was controlling, nasty and vindictive. She made my life hell. My dad didn't stand up for me, he was controlled by her too really. I was made to feel ugly, useless and worthless and I believed everything that was said to me. I tried to 'buy' love and affection by buying little gifts out of babysitting money. I learned that if i bought my mother flowers on a friday i would have an ok weekend, she would leave me alone. I met my exH when I was 19 and married him to get away from home. i couldn't wait to have my own babies so that I could get it right, so I could love my children like I should have been loved. The trouble was, I jumped from the frying pan into the fire. My exH was vile. So, I continued with trying to 'buy' his love and affection. It's taken me a long time to realise that I am a nice person in my own right and I don;t have to prove anything to anyone. I am 43 now.

As for becoming wise, thats all down to life experience, lots of reading and learning and wanting to understand why my life has been such a struggle. I am no longer a victim though, I take responsibility for my life and everything that has happened. They may not have been the best choices but they were my choices and I own them. i do that because I don't want to be a victim anymore, it's draining.

Gosh, i've waffled again