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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

The surrendered wife?

86 replies

Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 16:31

So I’ll confess I haven’t read the book yet but I did listen to a couple of podcasts with Laura Doyle author of the surrendered wife book.

Firstly I hate the book title, it definitely sounds like a call to submission but when I actually listened to the author talk it didn’t sound as bad as I initially thought it would be.

So from what I can gather the main premise is that wives shouldn’t try to control their husbands but instead focus on their own happiness. It seemed to me what she was saying is that sometimes women might be attempting to control and micromanage every aspect of their lives including and down to what their husbands eat and wear. Her solution is to essentially let go and stop trying to control your husband and focus on yourself and your own happiness. Her theory is that when you step back from trying to control the situation your husband will have the space to step up and do more in the home or with the kids. That if the wife is softer and leans more towards praise and gratitude of her husband she will get more of what she actually wants from him. That you chose your husband and so your should trust him to be able to be a good husband without constantly having to tell him what to do or complaining about your own situation.

To some extent this rang a bell for me because when I look at my parents marriage which can be very combative I do see that my mother has this very type a, controlling attitude in the home and the relationship she is very unhappy with the way my dad does things, what he wears, how he eats, when he goes to bed, how he does chores etc. I also kind of remember her being like that with us as well when we were still at home and it took me moving away and growing up without her to see that I was never bad or wrong but that I simply was different to my mum but to her if you don’t do it her way then your are clearly in the wrong because her way is the best way. I think my dad was always trying to be good enough for my mum but these days he rebels against her tendency to control by being even more of himself which just infuriates my mother more. My mum is awesome and admirable in so many ways but she also makes life very hard for herself I think.

I see a similar dynamic with another couple the wife with similar controlling tendencies probably as a result of quite an unstable and difficult childhood. She is constantly trying to map out her husbands life the same way she labels and colour codes every item in the house and every second of her children’s time and I think it does infantilise him and so he doesn’t take initiative and does just check out and scroll on his phone as a kind of escapism. Would he step up more, take more initiative if she stepped back and let go or would just go on working to rote and checking out? I don’t know.

I am not saying she is all in the wrong it could be that she is only this way due to his lack of initiative in the past but she is controlling overall in every aspect of her life. Again a very impressive women but is she making life harder for herself?

Me and DH are both pretty laid back and neither of us is controlling. We do each pay to our strengths in the relationship which are not all along traditional gender roles and we both know that we are each responsible for our own happiness as opposed to demanding it off the other. It works well and we don’t really deal with conflict in our 28 years together and we typically take pleasure in what the other loves and enjoys.

At the same time I wouldn’t say I was surrendered to him, I think we are a partnership of equals and that our relationship is equitable and fair. There are times when he may take the lead and there are times when I am the one who is leading and most of the time we just talk and come to a decision which we both agree on. Financially we are on the same page so both fairly conservative with money and savers and we make financial choices together.

To be fair if I couldn’t trust him or rely on him then I doubt I would be so relaxed about everything and to be honest I don’t think I’d be married to a man I couldn’t trust or respect but you know it isn’t always easy to know who someone really is until you experience some kind of hardship or have kids or whatever the stressor might be so there is luck involved.

I think she does say that if your man has an active addiction or is physically abusive then you should leave him. I’m not sure but the implication seems to be that if the man is mentally or emotionally abusive, lazy, pesters the wife for sex no stop etc that if the wife only changes her behaviour and response the man’s behaviour will change automatically. Is that really true do you think or could it risk making an already abused woman more vulnerable? She actually mentioned in the podcast one woman a trainee doctor who was put in the ER by her husband while she was pregnant with his child and the doctor treating her told her to leave but the woman wanting to save the marriage went to Laura Doyle and is still married to the man who beat her while she was pregnant and Laura Doyle was obviously happy she made this happen!

So I feel like I can get onboard with some of what she is saying such as let some things go, accept you can’t change another person, give your partner space to step up and into their role as a husband and father and to focus on your own happiness instead of feeling like every minute of your life has to be taken up doing for others. However it just also seems like she is assuming that most men are fundamentally good and trust worthy and will step up if you give them the space to do so. What is to say that a man who is selfish and careless won’t just take that as permission to be even more selfish? Is her thinking coming from quite a privileged position, she seems to make a lot of money from her coaching and books and must put in a lot of hours as a professional women so I don’t think her perspective is to be a meek little stay at home wife.

I just don’t know what to make of her and her ideas?

OP posts:
Frith2013 · 28/07/2024 16:49

It's a pile of old bollocks.

Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 16:51

@Frith2013 I think some of it is probably ok as I say above the whole letting go of things you can't really control, focusing on your own happiness and giving your partner space to step up to be a better husband and father but there is also a lot of optimism in her advice which could easily wrong foot a woman who's husband happens to be a selfish prick who will take what he can get and give nothing back in return.

OP posts:
Dery · 28/07/2024 16:58

I haven’t read the book or listened to her podcasts. The choice of the word “surrendered” suggests to me that her messages would be generally unacceptable to me. Encouraging domestic violence victims back into abusive relationships - if she has indeed done that (I have no idea whether she has or not), is an appalling and irresponsible thing to do.

Turophilic · 28/07/2024 17:08

I read it 20 odd years ago with a book group - it was almost a dare from the one who suggested it.

It’s absolutely infuriating. It’s also nonsense. A bloke who wanted a wife like that is the sort of bloke I couldn’t respect.

Funnily enough, the woman who thought “it made some decent points” got divorced.

tribpot · 28/07/2024 17:09

One core principle seems to be that the man must control the household finances. Not sure how you feel about that one, OP.

Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 17:33

@tribpot Well I think for us we do it mutually really but its easy because we very much have the same views on money, saving and spending so there isn't really any conflict there. We pool all our money, neither of us are spendthrifts, we both prioritize quality food so we can get a spendy on that but again we are on the same page.

I would think that each couple should decide together how to spend the money and if you aren't on the same page with money i.e. one partner liked to spend, spend, spend and the other was a saver then it might make more sense to keep finances separate or if there is a lot of conflict about money perhaps the marriage isn't the best course of action?

I knew a couple where the man was in charge of the money and he blew their savings on cocaine he would take late at night after his wife and kids were in bed and he stayed up playing video games so if that is your husband then he doesn't deserve to be in charge of the finances and if that puts his nose out of joint then he should have thought about that before being a feckless arsehole.

All this kind of comes back to my point that her ideas may well work, provided the man in question is actually a decent man who can be trusted and that just because it worked for her and for some other women doesn't mean it would work for every woman or would even be safe for her.

OP posts:
Dery · 28/07/2024 17:37

@Tigerbalmy - you say her ideas might work if the man is decent. But why are you interested in the ideas of someone who talks of wives/female partners “surrendering”? A healthy relationship doesn’t involve surrender on either side.

Flibflobflibflob · 28/07/2024 17:44

The bit about not trying to control someone, i.e. how they dress etc yeah I can get behind. But the idea that you step back and then treat men like toddlers with gentle encouragement and praise is a ridiculous. I married a grown man, I think I would be reasonable to expect that what I got was an actual grown man. I hate gentle parenting a child, I think I would implode if I had to do it with a 40 something year old. Most men given “space” would decide their wife is absolutely happy doing everything, it wouldn’t occur to them to suddenly take over stuff they should have been doing all along.

Expectations of women are so high and for men so low.

cupcaske123 · 28/07/2024 17:48

The "Surrendered Wives" movement is centered on six basic principles:

  1. a wife relinquishes control of her husband's life
  2. she respects his decisions for his life
  3. she practices good self-care (she does at least three things a day for her own enjoyment)
  4. she practices expressing gratitude (thanking her husband for the things he does)
  5. a surrendered wife is not afraid to show her vulnerability and take the feminine approach
  6. she trusts him to handle household finances

I'm on board with some of the principles such as not controlling others, respecting their decisions, doing things for yourself every day and thanking them.

I've no idea what the 'feminine approach' is and don't agree with handing over control of finance - ridiculous idea.

Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 17:54

@Flibflobflibflob "But the idea that you step back and then treat men like toddlers with gentle encouragement and praise is a ridiculous."

I do get that I do also see how it could be possible that if a wife is micromanaging every little thing then that could infantilise the husband as well, make him feel like he can't do anything right. I see that in my parents.

I don't feel like I ever needed to make an effort to do any of that, it just came naturally to us to each pull our weight.

I do agree that it is annoying that the wife is supposed to be the one to do all the work to make this happen either way, she gets round this by saying that "women are the keepers of relationships" and I ask myself according to who? Does this mean that men have to be manipulated into being good men by women? Isn't that just another form of being controlling?

I suppose when you start digging down into what she is saying it is all over the place and doesn't make much sense.

OP posts:
Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 17:56

@cupcaske123 I don't quite know what she means by being feminine except that she thinks women get what they want more by being sweet, soft, not being critical or dominant. Maybe there is something to that, I don't know, it all depends on the man you are dealing with I think.

OP posts:
Lentilweaver · 28/07/2024 17:58

Oh, what bollocks. I would be more articulate but it's too hot.

cupcaske123 · 28/07/2024 17:59

Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 17:56

@cupcaske123 I don't quite know what she means by being feminine except that she thinks women get what they want more by being sweet, soft, not being critical or dominant. Maybe there is something to that, I don't know, it all depends on the man you are dealing with I think.

It still doesn't make sense, how does this feminine approach manifest? I'll do some digging.

Flibflobflibflob · 28/07/2024 18:04

Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 17:54

@Flibflobflibflob "But the idea that you step back and then treat men like toddlers with gentle encouragement and praise is a ridiculous."

I do get that I do also see how it could be possible that if a wife is micromanaging every little thing then that could infantilise the husband as well, make him feel like he can't do anything right. I see that in my parents.

I don't feel like I ever needed to make an effort to do any of that, it just came naturally to us to each pull our weight.

I do agree that it is annoying that the wife is supposed to be the one to do all the work to make this happen either way, she gets round this by saying that "women are the keepers of relationships" and I ask myself according to who? Does this mean that men have to be manipulated into being good men by women? Isn't that just another form of being controlling?

I suppose when you start digging down into what she is saying it is all over the place and doesn't make much sense.

Yeah I think thats the bit that I find a bit unsettling. Being kind and appreciative towards my husband is natural to me as part of a pretty healthy and loving relationship.

Trying to find ways to get him to do stuff without just having an adult conversation is suspect to me. I don’t want to try to get around him, I want to talk to him in a reasonable calm way and come to a mutually satisfactory agreement. I don’t think couples can build true intimacy without honesty.

Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 18:11

@Flibflobflibflob I agree with you, I'd feel very weird if I felt I had to resort to any specific "hidden tactics" to get my husband to behave in a certain way.

OP posts:
OtterMouse · 28/07/2024 18:19

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

cupcaske123 · 28/07/2024 18:21

This is what she says about cheating:

Having said that, a past extramarital affair does not automatically make your husband a chronic philanderer. It may have been his inappropriate reaction to years of emasculation and criticism from his wife. That doesn't make the affair your fault; it's still his responsibility to communicate with you and keep his vows. However your marriage can heal from this type of infidelity once you begin surrendering, if your husband is willing to recommit himself to monogamy.

leeverarch · 28/07/2024 18:28

Strewth.

That is all.

Daleksatemyshed · 28/07/2024 18:34

So what she's really saying is you need to let a man run his own life and in return he'll be a better man,if you don't let him have his own way he'll feel unmanly and start chasing other women. Has she considered for a minute that no one really knows someone else, that the good husband may turn out to be a serial cheat, a secret drug addict/gambler/ sex addict and that letting him go his own way may be the ruin of them both? If all marriages were full of love and trust then it might be practical, in the real world, not so much

Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 18:37

cupcaske123 · 28/07/2024 18:21

This is what she says about cheating:

Having said that, a past extramarital affair does not automatically make your husband a chronic philanderer. It may have been his inappropriate reaction to years of emasculation and criticism from his wife. That doesn't make the affair your fault; it's still his responsibility to communicate with you and keep his vows. However your marriage can heal from this type of infidelity once you begin surrendering, if your husband is willing to recommit himself to monogamy.

Well I suppose in theory that could be true just as a wife could potentially cheat because their husband ignored them, or was unkind to them or whatever lead to the loss of closeness and intimacy in the relationship. I mean I can kind of see her point in that case again it is makes a lot of assumptions and certainly couldn't be taken as a blanket reason for every infidelity as some men would cheat regardless of how happy their marriage was and potentially some women as well.

OP posts:
Turophilic · 28/07/2024 18:38

She’s not saying only that, @Daleksatemyshed . She’s also saying the blokes should have financial control of the family, that one of the reasons men cheat is their naggy, emasculating wives, and that if we women were more girly and also subservient, our marriages would be better.

Turophilic · 28/07/2024 18:39

(To which I would reply Fuck That Shit)

cupcaske123 · 28/07/2024 18:41

The only answer I could find on the feminine approach was receptivity. She said in a Reddit Q&A that you can't give if you are receiving. Makes no sense to me.

The other thing seems to be that women are screeching harpies who nag, nag, nag and relentlessly criticise men. They micromanage their lives and infantalise them. If only they would give them room to breath, their relationship would improve.

Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 18:41

Daleksatemyshed · 28/07/2024 18:34

So what she's really saying is you need to let a man run his own life and in return he'll be a better man,if you don't let him have his own way he'll feel unmanly and start chasing other women. Has she considered for a minute that no one really knows someone else, that the good husband may turn out to be a serial cheat, a secret drug addict/gambler/ sex addict and that letting him go his own way may be the ruin of them both? If all marriages were full of love and trust then it might be practical, in the real world, not so much

@Daleksatemyshed

"So what she's really saying is you need to let a man run his own life and in return he'll be a better man"

I think this is what she is saying.

"if you don't let him have his own way he'll feel unmanly and start chasing other women"

I don't think this is what she is saying I think it could be that in some cases she is saying that if you alienate your husband through being critical and controlling then that may contribute to his openness to an affair.

"Has she considered for a minute that no one really knows someone else, that the good husband may turn out to be a serial cheat, a secret drug addict/gambler/ sex addict and that letting him go his own way may be the ruin of them both? If all marriages were full of love and trust then it might be practical, in the real world, not so much"

I agree that she seems to assume that in 99.9% of cases the men are basically good men and I'd be doubtful that is the case.

OP posts:
BustingBaoBun · 28/07/2024 18:42

I ain't surrendering to anyone!

Absolute BS. So... in other words... let the man do what he wants, and you just smile serenely and do a hobby every day to make yourself feel better. Whilst he is thanked endlessly by you for putting his coffee cup in the dishwasher. Bollocks to that!

Do people honestly buy into this tosh?
I think men must be beyond delighted if their wife was to read this. And follow it. It means he can do what he wants and his wife will just smile and accept it.

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