The surrendered wife?

[Tigerbalmy]

So I’ll confess I haven’t read the book yet but I did listen to a couple of podcasts with Laura Doyle author of the surrendered wife book.

Firstly I hate the book title, it definitely sounds like a call to submission but when I actually listened to the author talk it didn’t sound as bad as I initially thought it would be.

So from what I can gather the main premise is that wives shouldn’t try to control their husbands but instead focus on their own happiness. It seemed to me what she was saying is that sometimes women might be attempting to control and micromanage every aspect of their lives including and down to what their husbands eat and wear. Her solution is to essentially let go and stop trying to control your husband and focus on yourself and your own happiness. Her theory is that when you step back from trying to control the situation your husband will have the space to step up and do more in the home or with the kids. That if the wife is softer and leans more towards praise and gratitude of her husband she will get more of what she actually wants from him. That you chose your husband and so your should trust him to be able to be a good husband without constantly having to tell him what to do or complaining about your own situation.

To some extent this rang a bell for me because when I look at my parents marriage which can be very combative I do see that my mother has this very type a, controlling attitude in the home and the relationship she is very unhappy with the way my dad does things, what he wears, how he eats, when he goes to bed, how he does chores etc. I also kind of remember her being like that with us as well when we were still at home and it took me moving away and growing up without her to see that I was never bad or wrong but that I simply was different to my mum but to her if you don’t do it her way then your are clearly in the wrong because her way is the best way. I think my dad was always trying to be good enough for my mum but these days he rebels against her tendency to control by being even more of himself which just infuriates my mother more. My mum is awesome and admirable in so many ways but she also makes life very hard for herself I think.

I see a similar dynamic with another couple the wife with similar controlling tendencies probably as a result of quite an unstable and difficult childhood. She is constantly trying to map out her husbands life the same way she labels and colour codes every item in the house and every second of her children’s time and I think it does infantilise him and so he doesn’t take initiative and does just check out and scroll on his phone as a kind of escapism. Would he step up more, take more initiative if she stepped back and let go or would just go on working to rote and checking out? I don’t know.

I am not saying she is all in the wrong it could be that she is only this way due to his lack of initiative in the past but she is controlling overall in every aspect of her life. Again a very impressive women but is she making life harder for herself?

Me and DH are both pretty laid back and neither of us is controlling. We do each pay to our strengths in the relationship which are not all along traditional gender roles and we both know that we are each responsible for our own happiness as opposed to demanding it off the other. It works well and we don’t really deal with conflict in our 28 years together and we typically take pleasure in what the other loves and enjoys.

At the same time I wouldn’t say I was surrendered to him, I think we are a partnership of equals and that our relationship is equitable and fair. There are times when he may take the lead and there are times when I am the one who is leading and most of the time we just talk and come to a decision which we both agree on. Financially we are on the same page so both fairly conservative with money and savers and we make financial choices together.

To be fair if I couldn’t trust him or rely on him then I doubt I would be so relaxed about everything and to be honest I don’t think I’d be married to a man I couldn’t trust or respect but you know it isn’t always easy to know who someone really is until you experience some kind of hardship or have kids or whatever the stressor might be so there is luck involved.

I think she does say that if your man has an active addiction or is physically abusive then you should leave him. I’m not sure but the implication seems to be that if the man is mentally or emotionally abusive, lazy, pesters the wife for sex no stop etc that if the wife only changes her behaviour and response the man’s behaviour will change automatically. Is that really true do you think or could it risk making an already abused woman more vulnerable? She actually mentioned in the podcast one woman a trainee doctor who was put in the ER by her husband while she was pregnant with his child and the doctor treating her told her to leave but the woman wanting to save the marriage went to Laura Doyle and is still married to the man who beat her while she was pregnant and Laura Doyle was obviously happy she made this happen!

So I feel like I can get onboard with some of what she is saying such as let some things go, accept you can’t change another person, give your partner space to step up and into their role as a husband and father and to focus on your own happiness instead of feeling like every minute of your life has to be taken up doing for others. However it just also seems like she is assuming that most men are fundamentally good and trust worthy and will step up if you give them the space to do so. What is to say that a man who is selfish and careless won’t just take that as permission to be even more selfish? Is her thinking coming from quite a privileged position, she seems to make a lot of money from her coaching and books and must put in a lot of hours as a professional women so I don’t think her perspective is to be a meek little stay at home wife.

I just don’t know what to make of her and her ideas?

I suspect most who criticize the concept have never read her book(s) to get beyond the headlines. If your relationship is working as it is, you would never need to because if it isn't broken, you don't need to fix it. I have read a lot of books, listened to hours of podcasts, had counselling, taken what worked for me (us) and left what didn't make sense.

Some small examples of how I have used some of the concepts.

Self care - I never used to make time for myself, whether that was going for a run, or out with a friend, going for a haircut etc. I never felt I could just do it, almost like I had to ask for permission because there always seemed to be too many other jobs to be done, kids to look after. I was martyring myself. Once I stopped and put myself first sometikes, everyone was happier. And DH was a lot more capable that I had given him the chance to be.

Relinquishing control - I had a real bee in my bonnet about how our laundry should be hung to dry (no tumble dryer). Some people here would say he should have done it my way, that his refusal to change was lack of respect from him. I did too and it caused some ridiculous disagreements. Once I stopped picking at him about it and trying to control the small details of household management he started doing it my preferred way anyway. There are many other similar things that I got hung up on, because of an old fashioned notion of the home being my domain and not being willing to accept that I am not always right!

Gratitude - by remembering small courtesies. e.g. thanking people for doing things, however small, and however much they should have been doing it without thanks. Not just DH. It felt really weird at first, but now both kids and DH are far more likely to thank me for cooking or whatever, and offer far more help. I don't have to ask for help nearly as often, and when I do, it comes much quicker.

I have certainly never relinquished financial control. Nor will I ever.

If anything, I have gone back to being the strong and independent, capable and equal woman that he fell in love with. Just a bit kinder and easier to live with.

🤷‍♀️

@dery I do think that is a fair point, the author calls women the "keeper of relationships" but doesn't actually say why that is or explain we a man can't do these things. I suppose her position is that she is talking to a coaching women, not men and that one of her key points is that you can only change yourself not anyone else which is in fact true. It is this understanding that you can't change anyone but yourself that she means by surrender and I don't think she quite means submission which I think many here take that to mean, and she has since changed that to "empower".

I think there are some similar books for men like The married attraction plan (again I haven't read that) which kind of say the same thing but for men so I suppose there are men out there who are taking the impetuous. Perhaps it is also that she isn't saying everyone needs to do this but if you want to save a failing marriage it might be worth a try.

@PiebaldPuffin Thanks for this perspective, I do think some people here are jumping to conclusions a bit at times. I also think the advice could be problematic for women who aren't as strong and who have abusive husbands.

@Tigerbalmy She does say that women shouldn't put up with chronic cheats, abusers or addicts.

I implemented some of the tactics in this book umpteen years ago to try to make my marriage better.

Long story short, we’re now very nearly divorced. I was a doormat for over a decade. He was so entitled and had so little respect for me that he had a 4-year-affair.

Yeah she did say that on the podcast I listened to of her although she did specify physically abusive but didn't at that point mention emotional or physical abuse but then she also then told the story of the trainee doctor who's husband put her in the ER after a fight while she was pregnant i.e. he was in fact physically abusive to her while she was at her most vulnerable and she seemed quite proud that she had help this woman and her abusive husband stay together. That didn't sit to well with me to be honest.

Like you said before some of her advice is probably good some of it is a bit more dubious and it is all context dependent and possibly even being in the position to be able to pick and choose what you'd use is possibly a position of privilege many women wouldn't have.

She did specifically say on the podcast, I haven't read the book that the women shouldn't be a doormat.

I think ultimately she operates from quite a strong and privileged position and had the luxury of a husband who wasn't essentially abusive and perhaps was just a bit henpecked or emasculated by him and she eased off the the issues resolved. I can see how in many cases following her advice could put women in a worse position.

I'm very sorry you had to go through all that.

I haven't read the book but the message I got was women stop nagging. From the sounds of it though, she was micromanaging her husband.

She does say she's a feminist and I couldn't really find out anything regarding 'feminine approach' apart from receptivity - I'm not sure what she means by that.

I have seen that it's spawned a movement and there was some disturbing stuff about having sex anytime your husband wanted. But I'm not sure if that's in the book (doubtful).

If she’s a feminist, I’m U Thant.

There’s various versions of this concept and they all tend to be rooted in fundamentalist Christian culture where marrying young, before your brain has fully matured, and staying married is prioritised.

In cultures where women are encouraged to pursue careers, develop as people, grow emotionally and can have relationships along the way before settling down (or not), there’s more of an emphasis on holding high standards, and less need for strategies to make life with a difficult man tolerable.

It’s not healthy to get into a controlling dynamic, or to try and change another person. I think most people outside high control religions, would recognise those tendencies as a sign that a relationship has run its course. But if you’re 3 or 4 babies in, and a divorce could ostracise you from your social network, then your options are limited.

If you’re looking for good relationship advice I’d recommend the Gottman’s work as much more realistic. It’s grounded in reality and doesn’t require one person to bury their individuality.

The Surrendered Wife, and all its other iterations, isn’t sustainable. The rates of autoimmune disorders, and cancers in women living in high control religious groups is worryingly high.

People outgrow each other, and people sad onetime discover they’re incompatible and it’s ok to move on and find a better match. That’s not necessarily the terrible break down of society and morals that it’s pitched as.

The concept basically boils down to this: Women are responsible for men’s (poor) behaviour and you can best control him by deliberately and carefully not controlling him.

As often, first reply nails it.

The rates of autoimmune disorders, and cancers in women living in high control religious groups is worryingly high.

@Theothername do you have any data or links on that?

I don't in principle disagree with the first five points in relation to options of how people of both sexes can choose to behave in their own private lives and relationships. I imagine in many happy relationships men and women are doing points one to five as part of their genuine, authentic, loving lives.

What I do disagree with is this woman, who obviously felt the need to remedy some ills in her own life, is using this as a schtick to tell other women what to do and putting it all under the banner 'surrendered wife'.

If she was presenting it as a suggestion to both sexes, fair enough. But in a world where many women are controlled by men both emotionally, physically and financially this is provocative, dangerous bilge.

It's picked up on by just the kind of people who further seek to relegate women to second class citizens protected by a a patriarchal, boys will be boys stereotype and who expect little women should take 'the feminine way' and lap it up.

Any credibility we lend this crap will be used as a stick to beat us.

Why is this book so routinely advertised on here?

Is this you first thread OP?

@aldertrees I think it might have been Tia Levings that was speaking about this issue in a discussion on her upcoming book. I’ll see if I can find a source for you in a bit.

@Naunet Not at all its a name change, I think the book pops up a lot online due to the rising popularity of the "trad wife" and the harking back to old timey values currently gaining traction in the US especially.

The book as a kind of pull as it has a infuriating title and then seems reasonable somehow but probably has some shady stuff lurking under the surface.

@Superfuryanimal All fair points! So my takeaway is that the books mixes up some reasonable information with other stuff that is potentially very dangerous especially to a woman who finds herself married to an abusive man. The author is very pro-marriage and in many ways I am myself but only up to a point, if the marriage is unhealthy or unsafe women need to get out.

Also just read today that in the US some states are looking to challenge no fault divorce potentially leaving women trapped in marriages which may be abusive, miserable and unsafe which is horrific and depressing.

"Surrendering" the CONTROL. The title is triggering and perhaps on purpose. The overall message is to not treat a grown man like an incompetent child. Even the best women I know have a habit of trying to control and micromanage every aspect of everything and then complain how no one steps up for them. Even if someone tries to, it's not to their standard, so most won't.

The “grown” men need to act like adults then and not get all confused about how to do things properly and some need to try and start wrapping their heads round the need to do 50% of the household and parenting work. No, the only thing women need to do is raise the next generation to understand that power has to be shared equally between partners. No surrendering to anyone, it isn’t necessary. Also if she told that woman to get back together with her physically abusive partner and he ended up escalating (as so often happens in abusive relationships) and killing her one day she forgot to “surrender” or didn’t “surrender “ correctly, then she’d be partly responsible for that, in my opinion.

My take on women being "keepers of relationship" is because it is almost always women to end them. Also, biologically, we are wired for relationships. Our brains are very different and we understand relationships & manage them better. It's no wonder women love relationship reality shows.

You might be projecting. This isn't about lazy bums, it's about not micromanaging your partner. It's also extremely unhealthy to think about a points system of 50/50. After all, sometimes 1 person is down and the other is up. Life is certainly not a fair 50/50.
Again, your understanding of the use of "surrender" is very different than what she describes. It's quite literally about not trying to control someone else, which any decent therapist would get behind.
As far the abusive husband story, I have no idea what happened there since I didn't hear it. Do you know which episode it was? I only read the book, and she makes it clear in the beginning that her methods are NOT intended for abusive men, but "decent" men.

You start with the Surrendered Wife and before you know it, you end up with the Duggars. I'll pass, thanks. And hopefully, so will my daughter.

Here on page #7 of her book, she makes it very clear that saftey is most important and she does not condone abuse, addiction or cheating. Divorce is not off the table.

Do wives try to control every aspect of their husbands life including what he wears?