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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

The surrendered wife?

86 replies

Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 16:31

So I’ll confess I haven’t read the book yet but I did listen to a couple of podcasts with Laura Doyle author of the surrendered wife book.

Firstly I hate the book title, it definitely sounds like a call to submission but when I actually listened to the author talk it didn’t sound as bad as I initially thought it would be.

So from what I can gather the main premise is that wives shouldn’t try to control their husbands but instead focus on their own happiness. It seemed to me what she was saying is that sometimes women might be attempting to control and micromanage every aspect of their lives including and down to what their husbands eat and wear. Her solution is to essentially let go and stop trying to control your husband and focus on yourself and your own happiness. Her theory is that when you step back from trying to control the situation your husband will have the space to step up and do more in the home or with the kids. That if the wife is softer and leans more towards praise and gratitude of her husband she will get more of what she actually wants from him. That you chose your husband and so your should trust him to be able to be a good husband without constantly having to tell him what to do or complaining about your own situation.

To some extent this rang a bell for me because when I look at my parents marriage which can be very combative I do see that my mother has this very type a, controlling attitude in the home and the relationship she is very unhappy with the way my dad does things, what he wears, how he eats, when he goes to bed, how he does chores etc. I also kind of remember her being like that with us as well when we were still at home and it took me moving away and growing up without her to see that I was never bad or wrong but that I simply was different to my mum but to her if you don’t do it her way then your are clearly in the wrong because her way is the best way. I think my dad was always trying to be good enough for my mum but these days he rebels against her tendency to control by being even more of himself which just infuriates my mother more. My mum is awesome and admirable in so many ways but she also makes life very hard for herself I think.

I see a similar dynamic with another couple the wife with similar controlling tendencies probably as a result of quite an unstable and difficult childhood. She is constantly trying to map out her husbands life the same way she labels and colour codes every item in the house and every second of her children’s time and I think it does infantilise him and so he doesn’t take initiative and does just check out and scroll on his phone as a kind of escapism. Would he step up more, take more initiative if she stepped back and let go or would just go on working to rote and checking out? I don’t know.

I am not saying she is all in the wrong it could be that she is only this way due to his lack of initiative in the past but she is controlling overall in every aspect of her life. Again a very impressive women but is she making life harder for herself?

Me and DH are both pretty laid back and neither of us is controlling. We do each pay to our strengths in the relationship which are not all along traditional gender roles and we both know that we are each responsible for our own happiness as opposed to demanding it off the other. It works well and we don’t really deal with conflict in our 28 years together and we typically take pleasure in what the other loves and enjoys.

At the same time I wouldn’t say I was surrendered to him, I think we are a partnership of equals and that our relationship is equitable and fair. There are times when he may take the lead and there are times when I am the one who is leading and most of the time we just talk and come to a decision which we both agree on. Financially we are on the same page so both fairly conservative with money and savers and we make financial choices together.

To be fair if I couldn’t trust him or rely on him then I doubt I would be so relaxed about everything and to be honest I don’t think I’d be married to a man I couldn’t trust or respect but you know it isn’t always easy to know who someone really is until you experience some kind of hardship or have kids or whatever the stressor might be so there is luck involved.

I think she does say that if your man has an active addiction or is physically abusive then you should leave him. I’m not sure but the implication seems to be that if the man is mentally or emotionally abusive, lazy, pesters the wife for sex no stop etc that if the wife only changes her behaviour and response the man’s behaviour will change automatically. Is that really true do you think or could it risk making an already abused woman more vulnerable? She actually mentioned in the podcast one woman a trainee doctor who was put in the ER by her husband while she was pregnant with his child and the doctor treating her told her to leave but the woman wanting to save the marriage went to Laura Doyle and is still married to the man who beat her while she was pregnant and Laura Doyle was obviously happy she made this happen!

So I feel like I can get onboard with some of what she is saying such as let some things go, accept you can’t change another person, give your partner space to step up and into their role as a husband and father and to focus on your own happiness instead of feeling like every minute of your life has to be taken up doing for others. However it just also seems like she is assuming that most men are fundamentally good and trust worthy and will step up if you give them the space to do so. What is to say that a man who is selfish and careless won’t just take that as permission to be even more selfish? Is her thinking coming from quite a privileged position, she seems to make a lot of money from her coaching and books and must put in a lot of hours as a professional women so I don’t think her perspective is to be a meek little stay at home wife.

I just don’t know what to make of her and her ideas?

OP posts:
PiebaldPuffin · 28/07/2024 18:43

I think like most relationship counsellors/coaches/therapists, there are some things to take from her views and others that are better ignored. Her views are not generally well received on MN. MN tends to just say LTB, and put all the blame on a man and say that the relationship is dead.

It really seems to be aimed at relationships in crisis, where couples have completely forgotten how to talk to each other, and only one person is willing to do the work, initially at least, to bring it back from the brink. It can't and won't fix everything, and some relationships clearly should end.

At some point, she has rebranded as 'the empowered wife'. I have listened to quite a few of her podcasts and have definitely found there are things that were useful to me in improving my marriage. To me, a lot of it is about treating others with the kindness and courtesy that you want to be treated with, taking accountability for your own actions, not taking the other person for granted. Not everyone does this naturally, because of shitty role modelling (looking at myself).

Daleksatemyshed · 28/07/2024 18:48

@Turophilic and so would I. What these surrendered wives seem to forget is that years ago a woman married a man and he was in charge, if he was a good man you'd be happy, if he wasn't your whole life went down the toilet because divorce wasn't an easy option. It's like a game they're playing, let's all play Little House on the Prairie

Middlepart · 28/07/2024 18:53

I think you said it best in this line of your v long op:

To be fair if I couldn’t trust him or rely on him then I doubt I would be so relaxed about everything.

Lots of women are unfortunately with men who they cannot rely on, and do everything household/child related as a result. Every day on this site I read about women whose husbands or partners don't work, don't do much parenting, cleaning, cooking, anything really, apart from drink/smoke/game/complain about not getting enough sex. I don't think that 'surrendering' to one of these useless lumps would somehow motivate them to be better.

BustingBaoBun · 28/07/2024 18:53

I used to following The Transformed Wife on Twitter just to annoy myself. until she blocked me She is the ultimate in being a surrendered wife. Here's a couple of her gems. Oh, and don't start me on how she disciplines her kids.

The surrendered wife?
The surrendered wife?
Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 18:55

@BustingBaoBun I think she means "surrender" as a just accepting that you can only really control yourself and not your partner at least from the podcasts. She was saying that women martyr themselves doing everything for everyone and complain about it and really they should just let go of that need and instead focus on their own happiness and I don't think she especially meant just a hobby although it could be that.

Her story is that she was on the brink of divorce due to her own impulse to control her husband, she wanted him to dress differently, to be more ambitous, earn more, to be more romantic and in her constant attempts to change him and push him she pushed him away. He stopped having sex with her and quit his job. When she realised that she had been actively repelling him with her demands for him to be a certain way, to romance her and have sex with her and started being more supportive to him he started his own business, doubled his previous income and their romance and sex life was the best it ever was.

I mean this could just be a sales pitch, she regards herself as a feminist but must know how inflammatory her book can sound or is.

I am certainly not agreeing with her on everything or even much, I am just curious about her ideas.

OP posts:
Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 18:56

@PiebaldPuffin Thanks that is a very balanced take and I probably agree with you.

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Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 18:57

@BustingBaoBun Yikes that is grim reading!

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BustingBaoBun · 28/07/2024 18:57

It sounds to me like she just gave up. And let her husband do exactly what he wants. OK OK it might well have worked for her as a fix for her marriage. She was lucky.

The word 'surrender' is dire.

BustingBaoBun · 28/07/2024 18:58

Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 18:57

@BustingBaoBun Yikes that is grim reading!

I know! What I have picked up there is mild compared to a lot of what she spouts!

Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 18:59

@BustingBaoBun I am not so sure she just gave up, I 100% having listened to to her think she would have left him if he hadn't stepped up, so I agree that she was just lucky it basically worked out for her.

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Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 19:08

Daleksatemyshed · 28/07/2024 18:48

@Turophilic and so would I. What these surrendered wives seem to forget is that years ago a woman married a man and he was in charge, if he was a good man you'd be happy, if he wasn't your whole life went down the toilet because divorce wasn't an easy option. It's like a game they're playing, let's all play Little House on the Prairie

I agree with you here, I remember listening to an archive on 4 years ago where women from the early 60's were recorded talking about their lives and so many seemed to be in abusive marriages where the husband could do as he pleased (drinking, affairs, domestic abuse) and she just had to deal with it because otherwise she and her children would be destitute and she had no real exit.

So I think she and other women like her probably are very naive about what some women are actually exposed to and I can't discount the fact that this is a very successful business for her so she has a vested interest in saying this is the way.

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StMarieforme · 28/07/2024 19:11

Somebody said to me the other day that Andrew Tate made a lot of sense and made some good points.

I said that this happened before, where people took propaganda and said he made some good points. Circa 1936/37/38...

Same here.

SwordToFlamethrower · 28/07/2024 19:16

What a load of bollcks.

My husband married me because I'm fierce, know what I want, quite dominating and full of fun and good ideas. He happily submits to me.

We are very happy with this dynamic!

All men aren't the same and all women aren't the same.

Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 19:21

StMarieforme · 28/07/2024 19:11

Somebody said to me the other day that Andrew Tate made a lot of sense and made some good points.

I said that this happened before, where people took propaganda and said he made some good points. Circa 1936/37/38...

Same here.

I do think that is an unfair comparison to make to be honest. I am certainly not advocating for her but she is hardly Andrew Tate or a Nazi and to suggest so seems to mock the horrors of the Nazi's and of Tate's crimes against women.

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LizzieBennett73 · 28/07/2024 19:21

DH would love a surrendered wife.

Instead he got a capable, independent, driven and "intolerant of any of his bullshit" one. I have no urge or need to spend my precious years soothing or placating any man's ego.

Shouldn't we be celebrating women by 2024?!

Daleksatemyshed · 28/07/2024 19:25

@Tigerbalmy you are so right. Back in the 1940s, which isn't that long ago, my DM married a man who turned out to be a heavy drinker, he abused my DM then my older sibling. My Nan agreed to let her go home,if it hadn't been for my Nan she'd have been stuck with him for life. Even when she tried to divorce him he wouldn't agree, the judge didn't give her the divorce because he cried in court and said he wanted her back. No woman should ever, ever put herself in that position willingly

Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 19:27

@SwordToFlamethrower & @LizzieBennett73 I think in theory her idea of surrender doesn't mean you can't be fierce, capable or independent it just means you don't try to control or change your partners just as you wouldn't want them to change you. I think it sounds like the book goes further than this and perhaps gets into more dubious territory. I also get the impression she has edged away from the whole "surrender" thing as well and now uses "empowered".

I also think that in any relationship most people are making at least some compromises and modulating their behaviour at some point and that could be seen as a good thing. I think often it is our relationships that temper us into better people than we might be if we only ever had to think of ourselves.

However not of this is automatically in conflict with celebrating women or saying we can't be our own people, this is about being in relationship.

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Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 19:28

@Daleksatemyshed Horrific, It makes me really sad to think of the kind of desperate lives many women had back then (and many probably still have), I have a very similar story from my own family history.

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Hohofortherobbers · 28/07/2024 19:35

Frith2013 · 28/07/2024 16:49

It's a pile of old bollocks.

Love this is the first response after the OPs word salad Grin
@Frith2013 I'm with you 😘

BustingBaoBun · 28/07/2024 19:35

Yes, and I have the same story... my parents. My mother was the epitome of a surrendered wife. Awful.

Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 19:37

Hohofortherobbers · 28/07/2024 19:35

Love this is the first response after the OPs word salad Grin
@Frith2013 I'm with you 😘

Well I was trying to parse out more detail than a pithy "bollocks" allows for. I know that isn't fashionable these days but I think it still has some value even if it is only for myself.

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Superfuryanimal · 28/07/2024 19:57
  1. a wife relinquishes control of her husband's life
  2. she respects his decisions for his life
  3. she practices good self-care (she does at least three things a day for her own enjoyment)
  4. she practices expressing gratitude (thanking her husband for the things he does)
  5. a surrendered wife is not afraid to show her vulnerability and take the feminine approach
  6. she trusts him to handle household finances

I wonder when someone is going to start a movement as a recipe for happy marriage where every 'wife/she' in the above list is replaced with the word husband/he. I mean, if it works one way it works both doesn't it?

Why's it the woman who has to put a ribbon in her hair and be handed an envelope of housekeeping money each week?

The whole concept is passive aggressive behaviour isn't it?

How about we do equality instead? How about we are authentic and not playing some 'little wife' act to tame the Tarzan sitting beside our hearth?

Seriously, point 3 - doing at least three things a day for her own enjoyment. Dear God, what might they be? Needlepoint, a visit to the Women's Union Bright Hour and brushing her hair 100 times.

It's 2024 and people are still writing this nonsense and here we are debating it as though it's not utter bilge.

Superfuryanimal · 28/07/2024 19:59

Also, if I started practicing these 6 points my husband of 35 years would wonder if I had lost my mind and would start wondering where his spirited, equal, independent life partner had gone. He wanted an equal, not a bowing and thanking liability.

Tigerbalmy · 28/07/2024 20:29

@Superfuryanimal Do you think there is any merit in the first 5 principles? For example do you agree that a wife should relinquish control of her husbands life if that is what she has been doing and respect his choices for his life, that she should show her gratitude to her husband for things he does and that she should focus on her own happiness and self care or that there could be more utility in using softness over harshness to get her husband to listen to her?

I know that if someone comes to me with harsh demands it puts my back up and depending on the context which is important but I don't think there is anything too controversial about these principles in modern equitable relationship.

The money one is more well iffy because I don't think a woman should just blindly hand over all the financial arrangements to a man she knows is bad with money, or has addictions or is a spendaholic etc. I would say don't be married to that man to be honest but we don't live in a perfect world where we know what our spouse will be like 100% prior to marriage and kids.

As for point 3 I am not sure presumably in the case of Laura Doyle it is running a million pound coaching business? But seriously that is the point it could be literally anything from needlepoint to MMA's or pole dancing. The point she made in the podcast is that some women spend their time doing every thing for others to the point where they are micromanaging their husbands and kids time and lives while they do nothing for their own benefit or growth.

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Dery · 28/07/2024 20:47

@Superfuryanimal has absolutely nailed it. Why is it the wife’s job to do these things? Why is it anyone’s? If she was constantly picking at her husband for everything he did including how he dressed, that was a problem with her and with the relationship. Not a reason to go about suggesting that all women should surrender in their partnerships.