Married to someone with Asperger's/ASD/ND: support thread 12

[Daftasabroom]

New thread.

This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.

It's complicated and it's emotional.

The old thread is here.

I am really glad I joined this thread, it's been helpful to read people's stories.

I've recently come to the conclusion my dad likely has autism and ADHD (I mentioned I've met a romantic partner who's similar), and it's something I want to learn more about to understand my childhood

My dad has narcissistic traits, and both his parents were narcs - he always thinks he's right, can't hear criticism, makes up stories to make himself sound better, is extremely entitled, and highly neurotic. Now I've realised at least some of that may be autism related

He has meltdowns. He gets angry at very small things. He's 'eccentric'. For example, needing to move table in restaurants 5 times, everything having to be exactly 'so', if not it's not good enough, and everyone needs to fit in with these numerous and very specific needs. He's impatient, gets easily frustrated, shouts at small things 'going wrong', has an inability to plan for the future, is all over the place, starts one thing, puts it down, starts another (ADHD stuff)

Because of this and as an only child with my dad as the single parent (Mum not around) I had a scary and traumatic childhood, and
spent a long time in therapy to deal with it, which I have done I think. My relationship with my dad has remained strong as I've put in place strong boundaries and am now very specific about what I need -
"when we talk you need to ask me two questions to ensure the conversation is not all about you"

My question is where does responsibility lie? If I accept my dad may be autistic, I can in some ways 'let him off the hook' (I forgave him a long time ago anyway). But doesn't everyone - ND or not - have a responsibility to be reasonable and healthy and show up for their kids? Yes it's harder if ND and some things like meltdowns will need managing.... but surely we shouldn't accept what ends up being abuse because of ND?

Busty I used to think I was fine for years because I unconsciously kept a hard lid down on everything and distracted myself with work and surface relationships with friends, partners, other things. I took what I now see as a misplaced pride in being very functional. I only started therapy years after having DC and marriage (and not even for any of these reasons). I sometimes wonder how much life might have been different had I known about therapy, and had the money to do it as a teen or young adult.

So I think it’s really good (if painful) if you can allow yourself to think about some of your childhood experiences now and how it relates to the current situation. It’s going to be the work of years for any of us to unpick our stuff and examine it clearly, I imagine.

Hope you can always be as kind and forgiving of yourself as you would be of another person telling you this same stuff though. That is key. Hope you can take it as slowly and manageably if you can. You’re going through so much already, even without trying to process the past, on top.

@SofiaJessica4 you’re asking some of the fundamental questions here. I don’t think we need to accept abusive behaviour. But, as with any abusive behaviour, we also have zero influence over changing it in the other person. We can insist all we like that they have a responsibility to do better, but if they can’t, or won’t, we have a responsibility to ourselves to get out. And unfortunately children don’t have the power & resources to get out of relationships with a parent whose behaviour is traumatising and/or abusive, which is why a lot of us will advise someone to leave a relationship that has the potential for this sort of dynamic before children are involved.

I do think there are plenty of ND people whose issues in relationships go the other way - I.e. they are not abusive, but overly people-pleasing in a way that ends up making them more vulnerable to abuse from others. And plenty more ND people who have solid, respectful relationships (that may still be a bit different from NT relationships). So it’s not that being ND per se predisposes someone to being abusive at all.

But some ND difficulties (in particular rigidity, black & white thinking and difficulty understanding that people experience things differently) and some comorbid issues (hoarding, extreme difficulty with executive function) make relationships very difficult and leave little room for the other partner. And those difficulties are going to be there in some form forever, and are an intrinsic part of that person’s way of being in the world. And however much we wish them to change, it’s not in their power to do so, and it’s unrealistic and in some sense unreasonable to expect this of them.

Slightly tongue in cheek but I think if you find yourself dating anyone who reminds you of a parent it can be helpful just to check in with a therapist.

Certainly anyone who is unhappy and thinking of staying or going is best served exploring how their own childhood may be playing out once more. I'm in this position. I desperately wanted my kids to have two parents together and it's made me put up with a lot under the guise of empathy and understanding for his ND. But as soon as mine can say they don't want to go alone to him, I'm out of here. He's slowly but surely destroying a bit of me every week.

It’s Sunday 🤯💥. Why are weekends always so much harder?

Just trying to catch up with the thread. @BustyLaRoux I am so glad you are back! As everyone else said, you haven’t let anyone down. The great thing about this thread as opposed to the relationships board is that people here are much more likely to understand the complexities and challenges that keep some of us in these relationships. It’s an oasis away from the simplistic ‘ Just leave!’ narrative on Relationships. We are all here for you no matter what happens or what you decide.

@SofiaJessica4 But doesn't everyone - ND or not - have a responsibility to be reasonable and healthy and show up for their kids? Yes it's harder if ND and some things like meltdowns will need managing.... but surely we shouldn't accept what ends up being abuse because of ND?

In my H’s case I don’t think he is capable of showing up and being responsible. I think I have done a lot of damage to myself psychologically by expecting him to do so.

As I mentioned before, seeing what H wrote on his assessment form has really woken me up to his reality. The reality is that I don’t exist to him on a really profound level and neither do the kids. It makes sense of everything now. My brain still keeps flicking through all the many, many incidents and I think ‘that makes sense now, he responded like that because I don’t exist to him, or the kids don’t exist to him’. I am still quite shell shocked from really realising this. its so much worse than I thought. I think I still had the assumption that I must be in there, inside him somewhere but the autism created difficulties in him accessing his understanding of me. But no, I really am not there.

Another poster , so sorry I can't remember who, asked how to get her autistic H to understand her child's behaviour. In my experience, you just can't. Because of this.

wow... I wonder if this is how my pda 10 year old daughter feels about us? she seems to want to be alone and away from us as she is angry I had her sister 3 years ago , and its causing behaviour issues in my 3 year old being rejected by her sister, she also feels like we just annoy her, its like we are not her parents because she cant comprehend that level of relationship / bond/ respect for elders thing. She will bond in random ways by keeping me up past midnight talking nonsense. I just cried typing this. I love them all so much, but as the only NT in my house, I am sad most of the time now.

I'm so sorry. That must be really hard being the only NT person in your house.

My H was not like your DD sounds. My H used to be really loving and affectionate and adored me. So I thought this meant he knew me and loved me. But I came to realise that he felt love and he enjoyed having these feelings. But all he knew was the feelings he had about me. He never actually got to know me because me and my inner life never existed to him. Even when I told him about it! I only existed in how I made him feel.

It's so hard! I can sympathise totally. She was not like this until a couple of years ago. I guess as she gets older and own ideas. Who knows.

I have a thread running and I’m getting a little berated. Are there people on here who have had to settle for less because they know they won’t cope for health reasons on their own. I’m having issues with my partner and his hoarding. I can’t stand it, it’s really the only issue I can’t come to terms with. But I know with my own c.f.s I won’t be able to survive let alone parent on my own. Do I have to in some way try and accommodate his hoarding? Although I’m not sure how at this moment. It feels like choosing one evil over another. I feel like such a bad mum.

I have read that thread, Rainbow, I think its the best and worst of mumsnet. But I think you have to realize that if you present a problem people will try to help you solve it. The problem you presented is “my partner hoards and abuses me.” The solution is straightforward: he has to go. If you present a different problem (how can I earn enough or reduce stress enough to manage my health and children) you will get different suggestions. But as you have (rightly) presented your partner as the main driver of an intolerable level of chaos and dysfunction people are rather going to tend to try to solve that part of the equation.

I know, I posted originally in anger when I was really mad with him.

I have ADHD myself and although the underlying issue is correct I can’t deal with the way I feel about it in the instance and tend to over react. Which is why it’s better for me to get information and act accordingly some days later when I’ve got a grip on myself.

I can relate to this (not the hoarding but the rest of it). Just don't post on Relationships. There is only ever one answer and if you don't within a few pages agree to do it, you will get piled on by a hoard of mumsnetters.

I have settled for less for other reasons though I would absolutely love to leave. There will be plenty of other women in this situation, they just have learnt not to post on Mumsnet.

I know that where I live the Council has specialist housing support workers who work with people who hoard to help them to get rid of stuff. I'm not sure of the eligibility criteria for this, or how common it is for councils to offer this, but thought I would mention it.

I don’t know @Rainbow03
Everything is screaming at me to leave. My two very close friends are gently nudging me to leave.

When the dcs were younger, like you, I thought I wouldn’t cope on my own. I kept telling myself I’ll leave when I have enough money/they are a bit more independent/my health is better etc… They are now both at Uni and still haven’t left…

My problem now is that stress is making my ME/CFA crash. I mean a one hour counselling can take me two weeks to recover. How could I cope with a divorce and months of stress???
And ofc, I’d be living in poverty with all the uncertainty coming from relying on benefits. Which is a stress in itself.
Would that still be better than living with dh? 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

What I know though is that staying made my Heath worse, esp the stress coming with it.
I should have left many many years ago when I could still work. I’m sure it would have been hard. I’m also sure it wouldn’t have been harder, quite the opposite than staying.

It’s my kids also because they love him. He is a really good man in so many ways. The hoard is contained well and not in the living space with the kids. But I know it won’t stop. I don’t really have any other issues with him, we have a good life, lots of fun holidays and laughs. I wish I could wave a wand and it be gone because then it would be really good.

@SofiaJessica4 your situation sounds a little similar to me. Raised by an autistic single father (from age 15 before my mum had enough and walked out) and the volatile behaviour, controlling and shouting being normal. I’m afraid I haven’t been able to forgive him as you have. I actually thought I had and it wasn’t until I was involved with someone who is autistic and can have a tendency towards those behaviours that I realised with my adult brain how atrocious those behaviours are! I don’t accept them as an adult so WTF should he have been allowed to behave like that towards me and my sibling as children? The damage he’s done! We didn’t know any better. Although of course we did because my mum wasn’t like that at all and I could see other people’s parents weren’t like him.

I had moved on. So I thought. But being with my DP just shines a light on what an awful father he was and I feel so sad for my inner child and so angry at him. My mum literally ran away one afternoon. And she drank herself to death in the end. My lovely kind mum. It breaks my heart to think how bad it was for her that she would run out on us. I always tried to get her to forgive herself and kept telling her (years later when I was an adult) that it had been for the best and no harm done. But of course that wasn’t true. It wasn’t for the best and there was plenty of harm done. She should have stayed and made HIM leave, but she had no fight left in her. And I don’t forgive him though I know it’s his autism that makes him like that. He has never once shown any understanding or remorse and even had the gall to tell me how his solicitor had made sure he got a good deal. My mum couldn’t afford a good solicitor and got shafted. My dad seemed to be quite pleased with himself when he recounted it the other day. I had to leave the room! Bastard.

You are a better person than me if you can find forgiveness. If he were one iota sorry I might try and work on forgiveness, but he isn’t. Hasn’t got the skills to see what he’s done. Always thinks he’s the hard done by one. Always thinks he is owed.

Strangely though I can forgive my DP. Partly because I am still here so I kind of have to for my own sake or else I would be carrying anger and resentment all day long! And partly I think because he has a lot of good qualities and is very kind and thoughtful a lot of the time. And he at least knows how to apologise and try to recognise when he has upset me. He doesn’t always manage that. And often gets annoyed that I’m upset as he feels I must be criticising him, but he has capacity for reflection and change and that’s how I can tolerate, to a degree, some of the abusive behaviour. Not that I am saying you should!!!

Maybe that’s worse though. Because he must have enough self awareness to recognise on some level what abusive behaviour looks like. Whereas I suppose my dad’s autistic profile means he hasn’t a single clue about the fact he is a cruel, self centred, controlling, abusive man. So maybe he deserves more of my forgiveness as he cannot change and cannot recognise what he is.

I dunno, I’m waffling really. But your post struck a chord because the questions you raise about autism / narcissism / abuse / intention / forgiveness are questions I have spent a long time pondering…..

Do you have space for a man room or a man shed ? And that can hold a lot of the stuff ? Box's in a garden ? The waterproof ones.

Does he know he hoards? What does he do if you confront him about it? My DP has a LOT of hobby crap and boxes of life admin that he can’t seem to ever deal with. I find that frustrating enough as it’s messy and chaotic and he won’t put anything away unless I make him. I have organised our loft into sections with a nice walkway going down the middle and he will just open the hatch and shove stuff in it, right in the way so you can’t get in! Easier than properly putting it away I guess. I think in his head he imagines he will come back and sort it at some point (except he never will). And that drives me a bit mental so I cannot fathom how you can cope in a hoarding environment! It must be awful
for you. Is there any kind of reasoning or strategies or compromise possible??

Also you’re very brave posting on the Relationships board! I wouldn’t dare go there. Everyone seems quite aggressive and not terribly supportive if you don’t immediately take their advice. I wouldn’t worry too much if they’re giving you a hard time. They don’t really get it over there!

Would he notice if you started getting rid of things without his knowledge?

I think I have worked out why H always insists he ' did not have time' when he's failed to do stuff. Even now he is not working he ' does not have time' for simple tasks like hoovering or mopping the floors. And he genuinely seems to believe it.

For him, there are no experiences that are not his experiences, no thoughts that are not his thoughts and no feelings that are not his feelings.

So if at the end of a day (or week or whatever) he has not done something because he spent his time otherwise, that is proof that he never had time. The other things took all the time, after all.

The idea that he could have chosen to prioritise differently or do other things does not seem to be available to him. What he experienced was the only thing that could have been experienced.

So me arguing with him about the validity of him saying ' he never had time' genuinely makes no sense to him as he didn't do the thing as he spent his time otherwise, which is proof there was no time. Which explains why he always sounds so convinced he didn't have time and so confused and angry when I argue that he did.

That’s so interesting, do you think it opens up a way to talk to him differently?

In other words @MetooOP ”if I’d had time, I would have done it!! Obvs!”

Yeah DP can lie on the sofa all afternoon and then say he didn’t have time to do x and y. He did. He chose to do something else.

Aren’t a lot of couple disagreements about this: I want you to prioritise the thing I need done vs. I don’t want to prioritise that though.

And is the issue that what one person needs to happen isn’t the same for the other person? “I want the hoovering to be done” vs “I don’t think that’s more important than the things I need to do”

The key to a happy relationship then must be having similar standards and priorities (ie agreed level of cleanliness and tidiness) and if that isn’t possible then the fact that something is important to your partner means you move it to the top of your priority list to make them happy. Because making them happy IS a priority.

Wouldnt it be nice if things worked like that??! My mum (anniversary of her death today 😞) and her husband worked like this and it was lovely to see. They just wanted to make each other happy and that was more important than what to watch on TV or who did more housework. They adored each other. Which was what she deserved!

You deserve it too.

I will say to my partner I’m unhappy because he won’t be able to tell by any of my actions or my face. He will reply I know, I’ll say oh how do you know and he’ll reply because you just told me. That will be the end, he won’t do anything about the situation to make me feel better. It’s just a fact and he has no feelings about the fact I’m unhappy.