Married to someone with Asperger's/ASD: support thread 11

[Daftasabroom]

New thread.

This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.

ND people are more than welcome, some of us are in ND:ND relationships.

I was thinking of chengeing the thread Aspergers/ASD to ND, which I think might be more appropriate and inculsive, but I've left it as it is as I suspect many people find us by searching for Aspergers and/or ASD.

It's complicated and it's emotional.

The old thread is here

So helpful reading all this as it helps me understand DH. This is him to a t.
I also cannot say anything like "I like the colour of that car" as he will then try to buy it for me immediately. I have accumulated much unwanted furniture for having dared express speculative interest in its concept...

I'm feeling like a huge jerk. This might be a bit long & rambling so apologies in advance. The recent topics of "can they get on without a partner" and topics relating to child like behavior came across just at the right time as I am struggling with this in a big way. As many of you may know, I lurk here and pipe in every once in a while and your stories have helped me so much and help me feel less alone. I am 8 months post-separation. It was a big blow up with me being the one to ultimately leave as he could not seem to accept that we came to our natural end. I outgrew us and could just not pretend any more, however him moving out was out of the question. 8 months in, he is still living in the marital home while I live down the street so as to be close to the kids (who want to live with him- the "fun" parent) and pets and home that I still half own. At any rate, when we split up he begged and pleaded, told me he was blindsided, he would step-up, he would do anything to stay together. He immediately did a 180, cooking, cleaning, taking care of all chores, and basically doing everything I had been nagging, begging, pleading him to do ever since the kids were born. Well that lasted about 6 months until he could just not keep up the pretense. Fast forward to today and I am working from our marital home because my daughter is sick. It dawned on me just how much masking he was doing and how it is all falling apart. My marital home is gross now, stinks like skunk (the dogs got skunked in march- he left our teenager to deal with it I found out & went over to help her), there is dog hair clumps everywhere, dust a mile thick, ants in the bathroom, garbage bags overflowing with tp rolls and tissues, laundry room is piled high with dirty clothes, clean clothes, and the floor is also covered with stuff- you can barely walk in, the home has not been cleaned in months and I found a cock roach in the carpet in the master bedroom. Mildew in the tub and shower, moldy food in the refrigerator, and just random wrappers laying around. A beer can was floating in the pool - which is about to also turn green. So back to why I am feeling like a jerk- It really dawned on me that he literally is incapable of truly being independent and now I am feeling so guilty because I realized my daughters are picking up his slack the best they can. I don't want to move back in and be trapped again, but now I feel like my kids may feel trapped to take care of him just like I did. I'm just at a loss because any rational conversation goes over his head or in one ear and out the other. I want to point out to him that something is very wrong, that he cannot live like this and his daughters are not his house maids. And I don't want to enable him any more by cleaning everything up for him, or give him hope that we are reconciling, but I am honestly at a loss as to what to do next. I almost feel like I left a middle schooler to fend for themselves. The guilt is overwhelming me at the moment. If you got this far thank you. If anyone has experience, post-separation, pre-divorce, I'd love to hear how you managed through it. I can't be his parent any more, but I can't leave my kids to parent their dad.

This sounds so, so tough nl55. Firstly I really don’t think you have anything to feel guilty about. That he masks is not your fault. Realising your partner’s true capacity can be a bit shocking, and I can see exactly why you’re so concerned here about basic hygiene.

I guess there are a few options - helping your daughters to engage a cleaner and then dividing up the remaining chores between them? Or selling the place and getting two smaller and hopefully more manageable places? Has things changed your kids’ perception of living with your Ex?

sending a hug.

That is absolutely disgusting @nl55 and I really feel for you. None of this is your fault. He could do it. He did do it when he had the motivation. I know that was “masking”, but I must admit I am starting to have a bit of an issue with this term.

What is masking? Forcing oneself to behave in ways which are socially acceptable (eg cleaning) which do not come naturally. I can see why in some cases we say no that’s not right. When I’ve heard of people being forced to suppress their tics or stop stimming etc. The answer here is that society needs to be more accepting.

But I draw the line at cleaning and looking after one’s children. Not saying it should be immaculate. But it shouldn’t have ants and cockroaches! And it isn’t acceptable in my view to excuse someone in this situation and say well they can’t clean and tidy because that would be masking!

Of course there are ways to help. Not saying he should do it alone. He clearly cannot cope left to his own devices. But he needs to step up. It shouldn’t be on your daughters to have to pick this up. He needs to pay to get someone in to do a deep clean. Drain the pool or get someone in weekly to maintain it. If he can’t do it himself then he needs to pay and outsource it. A cleaning rota might help. A weekly cleaner will Hoover and dust but they won’t change bedding nor clean out the fridge. Him and your daughters can draw up a rota for those tasks and share them out.

He needs a very stern talking to as this is so far from OK. I couldn’t have my children living like this and I would be telling him he is moving out and I am moving back in or he is taking steps to sort this out. Masking or no masking, he can’t be allowed to continue like this. Tough love time. I am sure some people will have an issue with me saying this. It is only my advice. Apologies if it offends anyone. I’m sure there are other views. This is just mine etc etc

@nl55 So sorry you are in this situation. Even though you have moved out, you can't move on. Obviously swaping living arrangements makes the most sense, but I'm sure he is the one who doesn't see that.
I can see this being a situation I could be in myself so I totally sympathise with you.
Is he keeping the house after the divorce? Are you selling?
If its going to be his home then the state of it is his problem.
If you are selling then you need to speed up the process even if that means getting a cleaning crew in and get it on the market.
You moving back in should be a last resort.
I completely understand your concern for the kids/pets though, even if dh can't.
Are they old enough to have a 'grown-up' discussion about the situation?
My dc's are older teens and we have had open, honest talks about dh's limitations, their expectations etc. It has helped us navigate 'our family life' together.
It's so unfair on your kids that their dad is not capable of putting their basic needs first.
I don't think I can give any advice that you don't already know, just acknowledging and completely sympathising with your impossible situation. 💐

Oh @nl55 this is so hard.

This is the awful thing, isn’t it - some of us are living with people who, despite being hugely intelligent and in many ways exceptionally sophisticated, are genuinely not able to sustain living independently. The day to day stuff of life is just not possible. It’s a sort of specific learning difficulty, and no amount of NT-style talking about it and setting clear expectations and pointing out what’s fair and trying to get systems in place and stepping back so that they have ‘no choice’ (😂) but to ‘step up’ (😂😂) ever works for any length of time. It just dissolves back to unmanageable entropy and filth and hoarding and utter neglect.

But it’s so hard to recognise until you’re stuck in it, because we’re not raised with any mental model that it’s possible for a very capable person to have these huge deficits in basic skills and capabilities. It’s always portrayed as choice and laziness and disrespect etc. And it’s always somehow our fault for ‘putting up with it’ or not whipping them into shape / training them / ‘domesticating’ them. As though we are powerful enough to fundamentally change the nature of other people and compel them to do what we think is right. And as though they can overcome their impairments by the magical power of fairness / feminism / etc. We waste years trying to change what is not changeable in our partners, because we’ve been told all our lives that we should be able to. That if we set the right boundaries the other person will transform. That if we can’t transform them then we’re enablers, or apologists for the patriarchy, or weak surrendered wives or whatever.

And even when we leave there is somehow nothing that doesn’t end up back on our plates to fix.

What is your financial situation, @nl55 ? How old are your daughters? It must have felt awful that they have chosen to live with him - do you think in some sense they grasped that he couldn’t manage alone? It might be a real relief to be able to discuss some of this (his limitations etc) out in the open, and for you all to agree and understand that he needs support but it doesn’t need any / all of you to sacrifice yourselves to provide it.

Sending you so much empathy & solidarity. It fucking sucks.

Hear Hear to everything that @Bunnyhair just said, with bells on.
Huge, flashing neon, sparkly, klaxton bells.🔔🔔🔔

Sorry if I sounded flippant. I didn’t mean it to sound like that. I don’t live with a hoarder and my DP is capable of living alone. The fridge would need regular cleaning and the recycling overflowing, but there wouldn’t be anyone sticking to the floor!

Accepting this as the norm when your children have to live in it would not be tolerable for me. If he cannot do it himself, which I fully agree is the case, he needs to find other strategies. Like paying for help. Emptying the pool. Moving out. Nominating jobs he can do and building them into a routine. Just accepting it’s the way he is when he has responsibility for animals and children would be where I would draw the line. I don’t think it’s your job to whip him into shape, but he needs to be told this situation has to change for the sake of the dependents. He needs to be part of the solution, even if he is paying for regular cleaning and not doing it himself. For me, I would be telling him he is moving out unless he takes part in the conversation about how this is going to be fixed. I have hygiene related anxiety and I realise my tolerance for things may be lower than other people’s, which tends to make me quite harsh in my approach to dealing with hygiene related issues. So apologies if my response came on a bit strong!

Does anyone have any experience of Scapegoats and golden children within ND families. Is this a dynamic of have a ND parent or is this something else. Eg do they favour a child that they get there needs
met from and the black and white thinking makes this easy without empathy etc. I could be clutching at straws?

@nl55 you need shared care.

the children need to do 7 nights with you and 7 with him. Or a split arrangement where they do Monday Tuesday and half of Wednesday with you and then Thursday and Friday with dad plus alternate weekends.

my brother and his x DW do this and it works well. He needs time away from the children to reset. Does he work?

Asking young children who they want to be with is not in their best interests when the person they have chosen has a disability.

Autism is classified as a disability and I hope MN won’t delete this post.

Evidence: https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/what-is-autism#:~:text=Autism%20is%20a%20lifelong%20developmental,and%20interact%20with%20the%20world.

You need to bring the children to live with you half the time, at least. They definitely can’t stay where they are.

id be looking at a legal separation. With half his time freed up he may turn things around. He may step up. No guarantees though.

i think long term I’d be considering that the best arrangement here, from mental health point of view is to have the children live with you full time. Maybe one weekend every other they go to their dads.

Wasn’t aiming my post at you, @BustyLaRoux . Just musing that whatever our own personal standards may be, no amount of reading the riot act can make a dent in the enormous executive dysfunction and demand avoidance of some of our partners. Nothing works. So if it needs doing we have to do it all ourselves - which is just fucking shit, and also harder to do (logistically and financially and emotionally!) when we have separated from them.

I think we often assume ASD = very rigid, organised, punctual,
obsessive about cleanliness. Which it is for some, but not all. For a lot of people there is also just incredibly severe executive dysfunction. Genuinely at the level where they would qualify for social services support if they didn’t have partners / children propping them up (and feeling it’s somehow their own fault things have got this bad).

@NDornotND i hope your meeting went well with the will solicitor.

just to say it took my DH, 6 years to commit to making a will.

he got very very angry when I suggested it. I had moved out with the kids. I said it was a condition of moving back in that he sorted it out.

He then barely spoke at the meeting with will solicitor. I gave up.

it was only when my DM died I said enough is enough. I said I’d be better off financially being divorced because at least then I’d be more protected than having no will written from you.

DH finally agreed. What a fucking challenge though. I find he takes me to the very edge with everything. It is exhausting. I no am so done with being subservient to all his moods and needs.

Does anyone else have a seething resentment towards their DP that they managed to quell over and over again? I am so torn as always.

@Bunnyhair in my own personal circumstances with my partner he claims that he just doesn’t see the mess. I think he has just put down this barrier because he has absolutely no idea where to start, what to do, it has caused great anxiety in the past so now it’s completely shut down. If not for me our house would not be safe for our children. He leaves the saw and power tools within reach of the kids and thinks nothing of it. It is my responsibility, I’m ok with that. If I wasn’t I would be getting a cleaner. The more I think we get at them and makes the demand they tidy the messier it will become and a bit aggressive . I find I have to be extremely gentle.

That sounds incredibly tough @nl55 it does sound like outsourcing some of the cleaning and upkeep would be necessary, as well as somehow encourage your DDs to at least spend some time at yours.

Re the executive dysfunction and demand avoidance in some ND partners, yes, this has been an issue here. I would probably keep going with doing the horse load work (is that even a term in English?) in the house as well as with parenting of DD, if it weren't for the fact that H gets so nasty and defensive over it all. Lots of Pass Agg comments over the house being a 'dump' and 'shithole' whilst being in complete denial about the fact that it is me doing a lot more than I should and it being him and his clutter that makes it look like 'shit' (I am only able to keep on top of the basics anyway as having DD out of school means little time of energy to do housework). That and him using me as an emotional punchbag when he can't function. Triggering my PTSD in the process

H will do gardening, DIY, cooking at the weekends and anything to do with the cars but all that day to day stuff seems to always fall on me which I wouldn't mind if it was appreciated for what it is (both of us being ND and doing what we can to keep afloat basically) and didn't hold us to NT standards of living. He will instigate massive cleaning projects in the house on a whim but it usually involves lots of swearing and grumpiness over it having got to that state in the first place. And making me feel that it is my fault of course.

I am really scare as to how I will manage when I leave but I will get whatever help I can access, adapt to the situation and not let DD suffer for it. I know I am ND and will need to make adjustments for myself, it wouldn't be fair to let my child suffer for it.

@Simplefoke Yes to leaving tools out, this morning I had to move a massive rusty axe (!!) from the house as I worried DD might somehow stumble over it.

@LittleSwede and then you get the “who moved my things from the kitchen worktop (in an angry tone)” ……ummmm me because you can’t leave a saw within the reach of a 2 year old who already has a death wish!

Also @BustyLaRoux I think that all the things you’ve suggested, about building a routine, telling him he needs to pay for help, move out, make a rota etc are all well and good - but you are assuming he will do any of this. That the issue is that he just needs to be told what to do and he’ll do it. What those of us with PDA partners know from bitter experience is he just won’t. Won’t move, won’t pay for help, won’t make a rota, won’t do his bit on the rota. Won’t follow a routine. Might absolutely agree to do all these things, but won’t actually do any of them.

I don’t hear @nl55 saying she’s OK for things to stay the way they are. She’s clearly not. But I’m assuming she knows - because she has tried! - that no amount of telling him what needs doing and making a watertight plan results in anything getting done. And so the risk is that of things need doing she (and/or her daughters) will end up doing it all, even though she has done what Mumsnet always tells us and LTB. Which is supposed to lead to freedom! But in practice, with partners like ours, often just means spending much more money to be remain in a very similar situation, with much less ability to safeguard our children and provide them a stable environment.

I know we don't always agree on things on this thread but can I just say how helpful it has been for me to understand my situation better and to forgive myself for not making a move to leave earlier. It really isn't so easy to just LTB when you fear for how your child will fare when you are not there to move axes/power tools out of the way.

Yes to dangerous things left everywhere! I have developed a very keen eye for the Stanley knife blades I find in all sorts of places - kitchen workshops, coffee table, on the arm of the sofa, etc. I’ve honestly thought about buying a metal detector and doing a sweep of child-accessible areas every morning.

(Name change, but regular poster). Today I’ve written to a private provider about an ASD assessment for eldest DS. I’m quietly heartbroken. I don’t want DS to face additional hurdles in life. 18 months ago I had not really even thought about ASD and now everything is changing. It feels really emotional and totally out of control.

By 'we' I meant all of us on the thread, not a specific person. I'm now feeling really down about the whole safety thing 😕 it's all so hard.

Oh good. Was worried I’d come on a bit gung ho!!!! Appreciate there is limited capacity for change and that this means partners or even children or ex partners having to do it! And yes that sounds completely shit. I think in this case I would have to present the options (pay for cleaner, move out, other options) and say that changes are going to happen as the status quo simply isn’t acceptable. He has shown he can do an amount even if he was masking before, so he ought to be able to engage in a conversation and some action, even if the action means removing himself from the situation by moving out. I don’t know the answer. But I wouldn’t be able to tolerate this. As I say I have my own ND issues and this is one of them. But I take nothing away from those who are havjng to struggle with this. I wouldn’t be able to cope!!!!!

Sorry @Bunnyhair my crass language again. I’m certainly not saying @nl55 is accepting the situation!!!! Clearly they’re not. I’m just thinking out loud about how unacceptable I would find this and how I would be voicing my lack of acceptance to my ex if I were in this situation. It sounds awful. With regard to PDA and agreeing to actions then following through I think I’d have to enlist legal support. I’d have to have him forcibly removed from the house if he failed to act upon agreed actions because I literally couldn’t cope with this.

I think I’ll step aside on this one as I am making a bit of a hash of it!!! 🤣 I am sure other people have better and more considered advice than me. I think I’m being inadvertently unhelpful and risk annoying people or over simplifying issues which I don’t have a proper understanding of.

On this issue I will comment! My DP is the complete opposite. He risk assesses the shit out of everything. Every suggestion of holidays is met with a full on risk assessment (too close to the road, too much noise, not enough sun/shade, stairs too steep, railings too low….)

Everything has to be meticulously gone through and risk mitigation plans put in place. My children were allowed to the local park (about 30m from our house) from age about 9 and a half. His children (youngest is now 11) he often follows to the park to check she is OK. He is so safety conscious it takes a lot of the enjoyment out of stuff!

However he thinks nothing of going out the house and leaving the back door wide open and the front door unlocked!!!! 😩

@BlueTick Thanks - Appointment hasn't happened yet. It's next week. Solicitor is meant to be sending us paperwork to go fill in advance, but it hasn't arrived yet. Situation with your DH sounds really difficult. Did he ever articulate what it was about making a will that made him angry? I don't really understand why my DH is so prickly about it, but I wonder if that's a failure on my part to understand his perspective.

On resentment, yes, I regularly build up a huge steaming pile of it. Although not so much right now & I think this thread is really helping with that.