Married to someone with Asperger's/ASD: support thread 10

[Daftasabroom]

New thread.

This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.

ND people are more than welcome, some of us are in ND:ND relationships.

It's complicated and it's emotional.

I don’t think it means they don’t have feelings though.
But rather that they can’t express they are let’s say feeling sad because they can’t name the feeling and/or can’t express them. I suspect it then all comes out as anger, regardless if the feeling iyswim

@SpecialMangeTout ah yes it does sound like that. He tends to get angry quite a bit. If he is really overwhelmed he will get a bad stomach and vomit.

My DH has alexithymia too. I often think he has two processing systems - cognitively he'll think he's not anxious and come to one decision. At the same time his emotions play out separately and he ends up in a different place. He can't seem to link these two, and it causes him to be wildly inconsistent since he's simply not a reliable narrator of his own emotional experience.

I really struggle to connect here since I can't even imagine that inner landscape, I don't know how I could even think, if I didn't have feelings to guide me, since the two are so intertwined.

@BustyLaRoux Thanks - I am happy to have lost the weight, but very anxious about regain, as I know how easy it is to slip into bad habits and that most people who lose weight regain, statistically speaking. So, my standard breakfast is berries (from frozen), full fat Greek yoghurt, and a sprinkling of homemade, sugar free granola - the granola can be frozen apparently, so that's something I could do. I think he might be persauded to get me various things out of the freezer to defrost - getting to the freezer might be an issue for me after the op as it's in the garage. And he likes the yoghurt too (but not for breakfast), which will help. I think it will be easier to get him to help me with things he would do himself. It's very hard to get him to do anything, but particularly things he doesn't see the need for or wouldn't like for himself. For example, I love flowers, but he has never bought me flowers, because he doesn't see the point.
The alexithymia thing is interesting. I wonder if we both have it, to a greater or lesser extent. We are both very bad at expressing how we feel and I often find it difficult to identify my emotions unless they become overwhelming... would that be alexithymia? I had counselling at one time, many years ago, and I found it very difficult to know how to respond when the counsellor kept asking me how I felt about things.

@NDornotND your breakfast sounds yummy! And yeah I totally hear you about being very conscious not to regain. I find 2 weeks of being careless can blow my motivation right out the window so it’s important to stay on top of things. Your breakfast doesn’t sound too complicated. Can you online shop from your bed and ensure the things you need are at least purchased and in the house? Can you buy granola rather than make it (saving DH the job of defrosting maybe?) Out of interest when you directly ask for something from your DH would he comply? What response would you get if you asked him to please put x amount of frozen berries in a bowl and top with 3 spoons of youghurt and one spoon of granola? You say it’s hard to get him to do things he wouldn’t do for himself. But what does that mean in practice if you have a direct and specific instruction? Would he refuse and get you something else that he thinks more appropriate? Would he just refuse? My DP makes an excellent nurse but I can imagine if the chips were down and I had to rely on my ASD DF as nursemaid he would need a very specific instruction or else I would get the same thing he was having. Even if I didn’t want it. He can’t really think outside of his own parameters. Not because he would be deliberately difficult. He lacks imagination and wouldn’t think to ask what I actually wanted. But if I instructed him specifically he could probably do it (I would get multiple questions about the amounts and the order of things as he cannot improvise or use common sense, but he would do it!)

@NDornotND yes it definitely could be. Though I guess there is a range of experiences. Maybe Google it and read some people's experiences and see if they resonate?

I always know how I feel because my feelings are so present which is also entirely unhelpful, I'm convinced there's a happy medium.

@BustyLaRoux
"Can you online shop from your bed and ensure the things you need are at least purchased and in the house? Can you buy granola rather than make it (saving DH the job of defrosting maybe?) Out of interest when you directly ask for something from your DH would he comply? What response would you get if you asked him to please put x amount of frozen berries in a bowl and top with 3 spoons of youghurt and one spoon of granola? You say it’s hard to get him to do things he wouldn’t do for himself. But what does that mean in practice if you have a direct and specific instruction? Would he refuse and get you something else that he thinks more appropriate? Would he just refuse?"
I am definitely intending to online shop, and could buy granola- obviously- but I do prefer my own 😬I don't think he would refuse directly. From past experience, he would either: 1. Tell me he'll do it in a bit, then not do it, then accuse me of nagging if I ask ask again, which will probably cause an argument. 2. Do it, but make a lot of noise about how difficult it is and find a way to mess it up, in the hope that I will stop asking. 3. Start an argument about something else.
It's draining.

He's very good at excuses, which is what makes me think he has PDA. In the last week, I asked him to do a small job in the garden for my elderly mum, who lives nearby and is a carer for my even more elderly Dad, who has just come out of hospital- again. The excuse was, the tool required needs servicing - this won't happen. If I don't ask again, it won't be mentioned. I have since found my parents a regular gardener, which is what they need really. Also in the last week, DS came home with a heel off one of his school shoes. I asked his DF (ie DH) if he could fix it. He said he didn't have enough glue. So i took it to the shoe repair shop in town, and got it sorted. We have a bigger than double garage full of his tools and equipment, none of which are ever right for a job anyone else would like doing.

My child is PDA. It's frustrating for sure! What I will say is to be genuinely PDA your husband would be unable to regularly be doing tasks/things he enjoys too. It's an avoidance/struggle of all demands both nice and bad. So for example my kid struggles with th demand of getting ready to go out to something he enjoys. Struggled with the demand of getting a favourite snack out of the cupboard etc it's not just the demands like brushing teeth etc

Some might find this interesting

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2817601

I doubt it will help in our relationships however.

To be fair to DH, he does struggle to do things he wants to aswell. He bought himself a greenhouse with some money his mum gave him and seemed excited about it. He got the frame up fairly quickly, but the glass was sitting around for almost a year before he managed to do it. It wasn't for lack of time and it only took him a day or so once he got to it. There are many, many, many other examples, but that's the first that springs to mind.

On the topic of PDA, I am still learning about it although i am quite certain DD is. Some of my favourite writers on PDA are Sally Cat, Naomi Fisher, Eliza Frickle and Steph Curtis (who I met through my previous work a few times, amazing lady!). Not sure if there are any reputable male PDAers out there as it might present slightly differently, like autism does? I don't know enough to comment on that.

((There is a male PDA advocate who wrote a couple of books from a male perspective but I can't really name or recommend him as he is accused of some nasty things and I think there is a criminal investigation going on - it all blew up in the PDA community on FB last Spring! ))

@NDornotND that’s just like my partner. It’s less demand avoidance and more starting and then unable to finish. Will start something else get excited then stop then start something else. I’m sure it’s something to do with executive function but I may be barking up the wrong tree. There isn’t a single finished job in my house it drives me bonkers! What drives me more bonkers is that he puts stuff places and expects 4 months later for it to still be there. But these places are not where they need to be kept so they get moved. For example he’ll leave the drill gun or the saw in the kitchen and still expect it to be there later. I move it to where it’s meant to live as we have small children and he’s get angry. Just out stuff away arghhhhhh

*put

Might that be AuDHD Rainbow? My DH says that ASD and ADHD are thought to be part of the same phenomenon by some people, not sure if that's the case. I certainly have a few ADHD traits and would do the same thing about the drill 🙈

@DrawersOnTheDoors Im pretty sure he does. He doesn’t really talk about his ND and neither does his family. It’s like they don’t want to admit it.

There's some great ven diagrams on this site, along some good basic explanations.

https://geniuswithin.org/what-is-neurodiversity/

Interestingly DS refers to hyper fixating rather than hyper focus.

Interesting debate going on in AIBU about an old thread where the parent of an ASD child whose behaviour had become so controlling the rest of the family lived in fear and how she’d had enough and was going to adopt a zero tolerance approach to the controlling behaviour. Someone new started a thread wondering what had happened. The original poster came back on to say by and large it had been effective. Though of course not without its difficulties.

Anyway lots of interesting debate. ASD and NT people coming on to talk about the very difficult balancing act between need to control and the need for others not to live under the control of one individual. Then some very defensive ND people wading in calling out taking a zero tolerance approach (to controlling behaviours which are to the detriment of others) disgusting child abuse and saying the needs of ASD children must be met unless there is violence involved. People talking about trying to teach ASD individuals to adapt to their surroundings and fit in with acceptable behaviour and some people saying this only causes misery and severe long term mental health issues. Very affronted.

It struck me the lack of understanding of nuance by those particular individuals. A lack of appreciation of different sides of the argument. That the debate wasn’t about a blanket approach of suppressing all ASD related needs to fit in and enforced masking, anecdotes about suicide etc. The debate was actually about the fine act of balancing EVERYONE’s needs and how hard that is when a need is about controlling others. How these individuals seemed unable to grasp that and called it out as abusive towards ASD people likening it to training animals. Actually got quite angry and started being quite rude to other posters.

How we partners see this every day in our marriage/partner relationships. The need to control surroundings, the anger when their partners try to present a different opinion. Black and white thinking. Shutting us down with accusations of this and that. I read their posts and it really triggered a need in me to stand up and say NO!!! You think everything is about YOUR needs. Anyone trying to present a different side is shut down and vilified. I suppose that’s because this is how I feel much of the time. If I have a different opinion then I am trying to enforce my will on him. If I have feelings about the way I’m being treated then I am “making everything about me!” There is no balance oftentimes. There is just anger and accusation and defensiveness and lack of understanding of nuance. Here were those people saying ASD children should be permitted to behave in ways that made them feel safe (lacking an appreciation of the needs of other people in the family to also feel safe). I really wanted to reference this thread and how miserable it can be for the partners of those children who have grown into adults who impose their will and control on the rest of their family. How much tiptoeing we often have to do. How careful and alert we have to be. How people have suffered due to being on the end of those who seek to control. And how perhaps if the parents of those children had enforced a less tolerant approach to allowing controlling behaviours or had those individuals been “trained” differently as children around their need to control everything then us adult partners may have fared better and the relationships might be more balanced and harmonious.

I didn’t reference here in the end. This is a safe space for many of us and I didn’t want to invite a load of angry defensive people to come here and tell us how we are the ones who need to put up and shut up and be more understanding!

As I say there were plenty of very attuned ASD people on that thread who could grasp the finer elements. And presented very well articulated and balanced views. It was just a few that caused me a wry smile and a “yes, and you are exactly why people here have filed for divorce and who have reached rock bottom in many cases, because you have no ability to see anything except how wronged YOU are all the bloody time!”

@BustyLaRoux I did see that thread but didn't dare to read beyond the first page in case it triggered me, interesting to hear there was some balanced debate on there too though so thanks for sharing that. Didn't see the original thread but I wonder if the child in question might have been less controlling is her environment and the parenting style had been appropriate to her needs? Not saying this was the case, I never saw the thread, just that it is a possibility. I find that DD becomes more and more controlling of her environment and those around her the more stressed she is at school (when she was attending) and if we as parents are less regulated and therefore less able to be attuned to her needs. When there are fewer demands placed on her at home and at school, she is much more flexible to do things slightly out of her comfort zone, which means she is a lot less 'controlling'. Which then means everyone else's needs are met to a further extent too.

As for autistic adults I probably fall into the category of not yet diagnosed woman (NHS screening tests all says yes, just waiting for the final part of assessment now) who puts everyone else's needs above my own until I reach burn out and boiling point and surprise everyone by loosing my cool 😂Then I guess I become a bit controlling in order to find my status quo again. DH on the other hand is probably quite controlling in order to have things his way, which results in him presenting as grumpy and sulky at times, whereas I tend to have a big smile plastered on my face most of the time (masking I think). I should have listened to my late MIL when she described her son as 'moody' and 'grumpy'!

So nervous about my first counselling session later today! Half expecting her to tell me DH is controlling (which he can be, but it doesn't stem from callousness or a lack of empathy. But it doesn't make it right either) and I guess I am scared that she might tell me what I probably need to hear.

Maybe a child who is diagnoses earlier and knows they are autistic , can stand a better chance to grow up to be better aware of their needs and thus being more regulated and less controlling in their ways? So the grown up OHs we are discussing on this thread might have been more regulated if aware of their ND? Trying to be 'normal' is exhausting and maybe makes us ND adults less easy to be around? Just musing over this myself...

@BustyLaRoux
I saw that thread too and thought the same.

I’m not experienced enough to really understand but I wonder if controlling behaviours come about because their needs are not quite being met. I know my controlling behaviours get much worse if I feel I’m not being listened to or I mask too but that’s as an adult. It doesn’t make my behaviours acceptable only understandable. It’s a difficult balance.

That is kind of what I was trying to say but couldn't quite put into words!

It is so difficult to navigate. I was pretty much scared of everything as a child so my family and my siblings would have gone nowhere if it were up to me lol but that’s not fair on the rest and could have potentially damaged their mental health. I think what affected me was that my parents had no idea I was so anxious as I told no one. No one made any allowances for me so in order to
feel safe I became very controlling and it’s stuck unfortunately, I’m not very fluid or spontaneous now.

@Rainbow03 This resonated with me, I was massively anxious as a child and am quite rigid and inflexible in my own ways, over the smaller things I can control. Yet am also a people pleaser/walk over with terrible boundaries so tend to not control others if that makes sense.

Although my mum was a very kind and thoughtful parent I do think that in hindsight I was put in situations that were way too anxiety inducing for me, because they were the 'norm' and what everyone else did and unfortunately that has probably shaped me. I would never put DD in some of the situations I was in as I still remember how it made me feel. As a child and teenager I suffered badly with health anxiety and sleep problems, it affected my everyday life for sure. Only just realised how much I masked in my childhood when I began my own journey towards a diagnosis.