DD wants to cut ties-Says her childhood was toxic

[SadandStressed3]

This is long, so my apologies.
I’m in a horrible, stressful situation with my 19yr old daughter. Basically, she feels that she had a very unhappy childhood and now doesn’t want to have a relationship with us (apart from us continuing to support her at university and keep her during holidays from university 🙄) She does not keep in touch whilst away and when home, spends the entire time in her room. I’m just going to give a brief overview so as not to drip feed.

She is the eldest of 3 with a 5yr gap and essentially says she feels like we ruined her life by having the younger two. Apparently this meant no time for her and less holidays. She said she had to listen to us saying we couldn’t do stuff because of money but yet we chose to have the younger kids. She said it was toxic due to arguments and stress. There was an awful 2yrs after the youngest was born where I had hideous PND but still had to try and cope as we have zero extended family and DH was working away through the week. There’s 18mths between the younger 2 so DD would have been 7-9yrs during this time.
When she was Y5 we put her in for grammar entrance (she’s exceptionally able academically) She passed and went to an all girls grammar. She hated it and we let her move to the comprehensive for Y8. She hated that too but still came out with 4 top A’levels.
There has been lots of teen drama and she was under CAMHS for a year. This was counselling and I was called in for the last 10mins of each session to be told how awful I always made her feel. How she was belittled and unloved and how the younger two were treated more favourably and how I gaslit her. She complains that the younger two have more relaxed rules on bedtime and internet use (probably marginally true but not by a significant amount) She’s also very angry that family holidays can now be more teen focused whereas when she was their age, we had to accommodate younger kids. To me this is all just what happens when you’re the eldest. Every year, I’ve made sure her and I had a weekend away just us. I’ve also taken her shopping for clothes and when she was 14, we completely redid her bedroom allowing her to choose and putting in a make up desk etc. If anything, she’s probably been over indulged a little.

It breaks my heart that she refuses all contact when away and lives by this narrative of having had a toxic childhood. I work in child safeguarding and thus deal with kids daily who really have experienced toxic situations and it frustrates me and upsets me so much to hear DD say such things. Half of me wants to support her and acknowledge, as I have tried to, that there was a very difficult period when her siblings were young and the other half wants to tell her to stop wallowing in self indulgent MC bullshit. Obviously the latter isn’t ideal and I do push that away. As things stand, she’ll finish next year and we’ll never hear from her again and I’m desperate to sort this out beforehand. Well done if you’ve got this far. Any advice is very welcome.

This thread is not about your past experiences.

The daughter isn’t even saying she wants no contact, she wants to live with Op for large amounts of the year. If it was that bad there’s no reason to live there she’s an adult - stay at uni house and get a summer job there, go travelling in the holidays with your new friends, volunteer abroad etc.
Instead it sounds like daughter comes back but doesn’t want to engage in basics of family life. Rest of family walking on eggshells is no way to live. Daughter shut in her bedroom presumably on her phone isn’t great for her mental health.

I'm so sorry. It sounds incredibly hurtful. They're quite self-obsessed up to a certain age I think and there's a lot of navel-gazing. But I guess as the adult, we have to take the blows whilst trying to very gently point out that sometimes being a parent is really hard and we get things wrong. Like all human beings. My DD 15 said some very hurtful things to me a couple of years ago. Then a few months ago, she actually apologised and thanked me for 'putting up with [her] crap'. Hopefully your DD will grow out of it soon? Certainly if she's going out into the big wide world next year, a job will sort things out a bit... I know I changed massively in my 1st year at work. Uni isn't real 'growing up', working for a living is.

You sent her to grammar school where she was unhappy. No detail provided. Did you want to get rid of her? Is this how this could have felt to her?

How would sending a child to grammar school mean trying to get rid of her, @PurplePansy05? She would have had to go to a secondary school anyway, whether it was a grammar or comprehensive. It's not as if it's a boarding school.

Yes sounds like ASD to me. Always feeling hard done by, meltdowns, being abusive to parents and feeling abused themselves. I have seen this. Hopefully as she ages and matures she will become more reasonable. If you can suggest ASD to her or send her some articles on how it affects girls then maybe that would help? It's so hard, and you don't need to apologise for having PND. It wasn't your fault.

Oh dear this is distressing for you, I'm sorry you're going through this with your DD.
I suspect she's not really wanting to detach entirely otherwise she wouldn't be coming back at all.
I really wouldn't take any notice of camhs everyone knows they often don't help. I'm amazed that you got to see them at all actually.
You've done your best & none of us get it right all of the time. Let's your DD know that of course you've made mistakes, sincerely apologise for those things you got wrong, I mean a proper apology. Like "I'm sorry I wasn't there for you in the way that you needed at X time, I should have been emotionally present & I'm sorry that you felt xyz because I wasn't"

You then remind yourself the ways that you have been there & what you've done right. You sound like a caring parent who like everyone, gets it wrong sometimes.

I'm not a fan of telling her to go & telling her she can't have her cake & eat it etc. I'm more inclined to take what she's saying with a pinch of salt, not taking it personally & just carry on like normal because whatever she's doing or going to do you can't do anything about it unless she's on board. I'd just carry on being there & being a loving parent without focusing on it too much. Once you've said any apology & reassured her that you'll be there whatever then I'd let it go. She's getting a lot of power from dangling this at you isn't she? I'd just focus on what you can do & not get into a power struggle.

but please, please stop calling yourself objective.

Where on earth are you getting this from and how would you expect her to be objective?
We all had bad parenting from time to time, no mother is perfecct and perhaps she is influenced by friends at Uni. It does sound like she is not so much jealous of her siblings from childhood but perhaps now, as she argues with her sibling and sees herself as on the outside.

Sometimes when your a teenager or in your 20's there is a time when you come to understand and deal with things in your early life, or how you were parented that weren't that great. There can be a time when you feel angry at your parents and you blame them for stuff. Then in time you move past that, you realise your parents are just people and were doing the best they can and that as an adult you can't keep blaming everyone else, you need to take responsibility for your own issues and life.

Hopefully this is just a phase for your daughter and that she will in time grow out of it as she starts to see the bigger picture and put things into context. I would carry on supporting her and holding on to the end of the rope as they say and in time she will come round. I think cutting off support will only push her away.

I have a dear friend who also had a bad case of PND during her oldest child’s early years and there are similar issues that cropped up during the teenage years as well, actually worse than your DD. It must somehow affect emotional development in young children, not that you the OP could help it.

I also like many others wondered about ASD at play as well with the black and white pattern of thinking. Unfortunately as many have said, girls go under the radar due to their superior abilities to play the neurotypical part when needed. The school cannot diagnose ASD anyway, they would be given questionnaires to complete, which are evaluated by the specialist paediatrician.

It might be worth offering to pay for private psychology sessions for her? My DD has really connected with her psychologists to the point that she is now paying for her own sessions now that she is working. She was referred on to more specialist psychology once the issue was identified. As it turned out, she needed anti depressants and since taking them, she is much happier.
Covid also did a number on teenagers in particular, they missed out on an important stage of development of socialisation with others outside the family. Then you have social media pressures (especially appearance related) as well.
I would in your shoes reframe the request for NC to instead working with her in establishing her independence, so that she has the space to live her life, take pride in her achievements such as the degree, getting a job and keep working things out. She has a lot of life yet to go through and it’s not over yet.

My DD is also very keen on moving out. I asked her what housewarming gift she would like and we agreed on a rice cooker. I also plan to visit her for dinners. Perhaps that might come for you later OP.
Her moving out may actually be an opportunity to rescue your relationship OP. Sometimes we need boundaries to have healthy relationships. You are obviously a bit over it as per your OP and I do understand. Mothers are not perfect, they are human beings.

But so what? life was stressful for her family and she’s behaving like this.

She needs to really think through what she is saying here and remember that the two people she deigns to despise might one day turn round and let her know how they hold her responsible for the absolute shit-show she is now causing them in their teenage years.

She obviously is utterly clueless to all the good things in her life- if she had no siblings you would be wrong there too. That’s the thing with people like that, they wait for you to make a choice and only then decide what the wrong thing ti do is.

Also she said 'belittled' and 'unloved' and everyone is focusing on the horseshit stuff that OP decided to focus on like holidays and bedtimes. Belittled and unloved are huge. Two years of PND is huge.

The way OP writes about her is dismissive and cruel.

Yeah, teenagers can certainly be self-indulgent wankers, but I still think you love them through it. With boundaries but understanding. Not getting tonnes of that from the OP.

She's going to wear you down because you have no boundaries with her. She can say and do what she wants and she uses emotional blackmail to get at you and that's what you have brought up no one will ever put up with that.

You're not a perfect parent and all you can do is your best she has no right to treat you like shit. She is your child not your friend sort it out and be a mother.

Really thoughtful post.

OP’s choice of words isn’t doing her case any favours.

Well, I was thinking the same too. I feel like the daughters emotional world has perhaps, and certainly is being invalidated.

A really absurd take on what the op has said. Way too extreme.
Should a person totally reject their family because of childhood problems that their parent has worked hard to resolve and has arranged therapy for? In my opinion that isn't right. The expectation that life should be perfect at all times is harmful and unrealistic. The op's DD is hypocritical to keep taking her family's money. If things are really that bad, she should make her own way in life.

Reading this is a bit like reading my Mum's viewpoint on my life. We have a very normal relationship now. When I was a teen I really thought she didn't like me and that I was too difficult, too emotional. This did come from things she had said although she never used those exact phrases. I have had years of feeling so sad about my relationship with my Mum and at times feeling like maybe not having contact would be best for my self esteem.

A month ago, after my 2 kids got diagnosed, I was diagnosed with ADHD and it pretty much explains everything that was different (and difficult) about me. My Mum read a book and said she wishes she had read it when I was young so she could have done things differently. She wasn't toxic but the information wasn't really out there back then. I can't really blame her because I know if she had had the information to help me better then she would have done so.

I'm just tell you this because reading your post I have a feeling your daughter may well be neurodivergent too. Obviously it might upset her to bring it up to her but if she is then it's likely one of her parents is too. It might be worth looking into in case it offers some new insight and helps a bit.

I would be heartbroken if my kids turned around one day and said this. I really hope you both manage to have a relationship x

Op - firstly you will need to let the 'teen drama/CAHMS pack' go - there is a tendency on MN for posters to collectively focus on an early in thread perception and then gang up on the OP. No matter how much you protest - they will latch on and not let go. You will just end up feeling worse than you already do by engaging with them.

I totally understand and am in a similar situation. Our eldest DS is now a bit older than your DD but similar age gap with 2 younger siblings.

My DS had by all accounts a normal upbringing, verging on indulged. I had PND after he was born, it took me 6 months to adjust to being a mum and after that I totally over compensated and inadvertently gave my child resilience issues by always being there with the solution. From about age 13, he started to become more and more withdrawn and difficult, but we didn't give up. We carried on being there, morphing, changing, adapting to his needs.

Fast forward to 1st year uni, it all fell apart. Self harm, 2 attempts to really hurt himself. Lots of self loathing and thoughts of inadequacy rooted in what he perceived to be a terrible childhood. Like you I was there EVERY step of the way to support, love, cajole, listen. I love that kid with all my heart and he was slowly breaking me and punishing me for things beyond my control (sibling rivalry). At this point he was in a toxic relationship, and in a toxic friend group - I think they fuelled each other in lots of not nice ways.

One day (he was about 21 at the time), it dawned on me that I was feeding his anxiety and making everything worse by being hyper-attemtive. What's more, I was in serious danger of alienating his siblings, who quite rightly had lost patience. I didn't do anything other than make a mental separation - he likely would not have noticed. I made my peace with my truth - his childhood was not toxic and vowed to be there for him in a different way.

He is 23 now - I don't think he will ever have a relationship with his siblings - it's just too far gone. Luckily, after lots of intervention, he seems to have turned a corner and is no longer angry with us. In his own words, he was furious with his life - he didn't know why, he just was and wanted to blame something. That was us.

We (DS, DH & I) do not know where this boiling, festering anger came from. We can hypothesise, but he really can't pinpoint it. He is certain though, that a collective identity was fostered at uni and they all focused on terrible childhoods.

It hasn't been easy. There were many times I felt like l had been pushed to the edge. My advice is that you need to make a mental separation. Let your DD know that you love her, but NOT at the expense of her siblings. You can't control her anger and need to lash out - trying only makes you more of a target.

🌺🌺🌺

No. No. No.

This is ridiculous. Can you stop pandering to her for a minute? I have not read all of your posts and nor do I need to.

The more you indulge this silly behaviour the more she is going to manipulate you.

You must tell her that if that’s the way she feels then you accept it but you cannot change the past and life goes on.

Is she getting money from you by any chance? This is the type of things this sort will say to extract money/attention or whatever it is they want

Dont let her ruin your home dynamics

Jesus wept @macymay123 that's twice you have embellished what I have posted. If you have to make things up or add shit on to posts to make a point then it isn't a point worth making.
Again, I wish you peace. Tatty-bye.

@ChiefEverythingOfficer I am glad things are starting to turn a corner for you all.
It's brilliant advice.

That is such an insightful post @ChiefEverythingOfficer I am glad it's getting easier for you and you managed to navigate it and come out the other side in one piece!
It sounds very similar to the OP's situation with her dd. I hope she is still reading and can take something from it.

Unless a child is being brought up in a seriously toxic family set up, then they just have to suck it up when they have to adapt their ways because of siblings. It is simply family life.

Maybe you should be clearer with her - having siblings and adapting to family life is not abnormal or toxic - it is just .... well, life. She needs to know that she cannot take all the benefits in terms of money and material things and then behave in such a spoilt way.

I had two DDs and then an "afterthought" some years later, and it involved the older ones in adapting their lives a bit. No problem. They knew it was simply how life is.

@SadandStressed3 I don't know if you'll see this, but if you do, then firstly

secondly, I suspect the truth is somewhere between the 2 extremes: I don't think you've been a bad mother & she's probably not been hugely spoiled either.

Thirdly, I've been thinking back to when I was 19, away at university. Finding independence for the first time away from home, after teenage years which did have some trauma. And I remember huge 'angst' I had with my parents, especially my mother until mid-twenties. There was stuff to work through, on both sides, and from my perspective, a LOT of difficult feelings which included feelings of being let down, treated badly and unfairly, and difficulties with my mental health...There was anger, and pain and all sorts. My mother & I are now closer than ever.

So, I'm going to say, keep the metaphorical door open.

She's still very young, in many ways still just a kid. She's got to stuff to process, she's figuring out who she is, hasn't experienced the wider world yet. Yes, it hurts & takes strength to be the grown up here (and I'm not belittling her, just alluding to the fact that you have decades more experience of life, of people and of handling your emotions) but acknowledge, empathise, regret but don't torture yourself...Keep communication open and give her time.

With luck and if she isn't as spoiled as some people have argued, or as neglected as others have accused, she'll come back to you. You'll build a new relationship more of equals rather than parent & child in which you can both acknowledge & apologise for your own failings each, with the strength & experience to move beyond them.

Listen and hopefully, in time she'll listen back and you can then have the productive conversations which allow you both to heal and move forward.

But I remember at 19, my emotions and undealt-with issues were still pretty overpowering.