DD wants to cut ties-Says her childhood was toxic

[SadandStressed3]

This is long, so my apologies.
I’m in a horrible, stressful situation with my 19yr old daughter. Basically, she feels that she had a very unhappy childhood and now doesn’t want to have a relationship with us (apart from us continuing to support her at university and keep her during holidays from university 🙄) She does not keep in touch whilst away and when home, spends the entire time in her room. I’m just going to give a brief overview so as not to drip feed.

She is the eldest of 3 with a 5yr gap and essentially says she feels like we ruined her life by having the younger two. Apparently this meant no time for her and less holidays. She said she had to listen to us saying we couldn’t do stuff because of money but yet we chose to have the younger kids. She said it was toxic due to arguments and stress. There was an awful 2yrs after the youngest was born where I had hideous PND but still had to try and cope as we have zero extended family and DH was working away through the week. There’s 18mths between the younger 2 so DD would have been 7-9yrs during this time.
When she was Y5 we put her in for grammar entrance (she’s exceptionally able academically) She passed and went to an all girls grammar. She hated it and we let her move to the comprehensive for Y8. She hated that too but still came out with 4 top A’levels.
There has been lots of teen drama and she was under CAMHS for a year. This was counselling and I was called in for the last 10mins of each session to be told how awful I always made her feel. How she was belittled and unloved and how the younger two were treated more favourably and how I gaslit her. She complains that the younger two have more relaxed rules on bedtime and internet use (probably marginally true but not by a significant amount) She’s also very angry that family holidays can now be more teen focused whereas when she was their age, we had to accommodate younger kids. To me this is all just what happens when you’re the eldest. Every year, I’ve made sure her and I had a weekend away just us. I’ve also taken her shopping for clothes and when she was 14, we completely redid her bedroom allowing her to choose and putting in a make up desk etc. If anything, she’s probably been over indulged a little.

It breaks my heart that she refuses all contact when away and lives by this narrative of having had a toxic childhood. I work in child safeguarding and thus deal with kids daily who really have experienced toxic situations and it frustrates me and upsets me so much to hear DD say such things. Half of me wants to support her and acknowledge, as I have tried to, that there was a very difficult period when her siblings were young and the other half wants to tell her to stop wallowing in self indulgent MC bullshit. Obviously the latter isn’t ideal and I do push that away. As things stand, she’ll finish next year and we’ll never hear from her again and I’m desperate to sort this out beforehand. Well done if you’ve got this far. Any advice is very welcome.

Can you break it down and focus on next couple of months say? Small steps.
How would she like things to be so there’s no misunderstanding.
So eg Easter hols - Does she want to come home, does she want a lift, I’ll be buying Easter eggs as usual do I get you one.
Next instalment of student loan will be coming if you usually top up loan does she still want your money.

They are a lot of fucked up people on here, they’re always looking for posters attack and blame and kick. I just ignore them personally - but I’m not in OP’s position.

Don’t beat yourself up OP. It is easy for others to judge if they are not in your shoes. I have a similar aged DD at Uni and I am sure she feels very similar to your DD in that she just about tolerates us, at arms length totally on her terms expects us to fund her through Uni etc. I try to keep regular contact going and reassure her that we love and care about her and we are here for her for anything at all. The nicer we are often the ruder and nastier she is.

She has always been fiercely independence and I would not be at all surprised if she says similar to your DD re non contact and cuts herself off totally from us at some point in the non too distant future.

She is the youngest of two but like your DD she is extremely jealous of her older brother and in her mind he is the favourite. We treat them both the same and love them both equally but in her mind she is badly done too. On the holiday front she has had far more than her brother had. Admittedly as her teenage behaviour cranked up he is admittedly much less hard work to be around. She has never had any counselling or bad treatment but I have been strict with her in some ways but maybe less so in other ways. But you just have to do your best and hope for the best. Although I tried to encourage her to access some online support during lockdown which she outrightly refused. She also did Psychology A Level and often throws in quotes from that or possibly TIKTOK which she makes fit what she believes to be true. I have often thought she is ND but have no diagnosis as she refuses to see a GP.

Take care OP.

Some people are arseholes on here. Let's not forget there's a person behind this post who's posted for advice and support not a kicking off people.

OP I suspect if you withdrew your financial support she would come back with her tail between her legs. You can't be her punch bag.

as a child she was never able to lie about anything

Monosyllabic answers to her father.

At 19, she can pursue an autism assessment herself. You could suggest it to her again. She's ticking a lot of boxes here.

The more you say about her Op it does seem like she might be ND. Hopefully she can access some support via Gp or Uni. Life isn’t black and white.

Op it was perfectly obvious to me you meant them separately, I was about to post as much myself. Agree that so many are projecting here.

Same here

@SadandStressed3 what do you want from this thread? Actual advice about reconnecting with your daughter or validation that she is in the wrong?

My offer to PM with you is still open if you would like to talk about anything from the "other side". My broad brush advice remains to listen to her without defensiveness and judgement. Good luck.

Yep, and some are really enjoying kicking the boot in the OP.

That’s true, indeed I said the same about counselling to another poster. OP certainly can’t force DD to consider ASD. But it might be worth OP following up reading about its presentation in girls for herself to get a sense of whether it’s likely to apply, for her own understanding as much as anything.

One of my young relations was thought to be potentially be ASD - but he’s not he’s just very sensitive. However, reading about ASD has certainly helped understand his behaviour patterns as they are similar.

I would leave the thread tbh @SadandStressed3 Good for you if you don't though.
You have to keep in mind that posters come at this from different angles. There are the ones that want to help, support and lift other women up. Then there are the ones who struggle with real life relationships so come on her to vent their loneliness and frustration and all the bile just spills out of them. Then there's a fair few who just simply enjoy kicking a woman when she is down.
There have been helpful posts coming from all angles so I hope you can filter out the vile ones. Pity them then give them no more thought.
I have no doubt you will do your best with your dd going forwards but don't allow yourself to be painted as the villain. Don't be dragged down with the negative emotions. The ball is in your dd's court really. Your two other children deserve to be kept away from this and need a happy, healthy mum.

The only advice I would give OP is that you have to remember, although you all lived through the same things, you will all have experienced it very differently. That’s the nature of life, and how you feel it was as an adult is without a shadow of a doubt very different to how it felt to her as a child. It’s almost pointless for you to try and argue that it was a certain way, it doesn’t matter how you experienced it, she is telling you how SHE experienced it. I know you’ve said she isn’t keen on counselling for the two of you but I honestly do think even if not counselling, the two of you sitting down together, no other kids there and no distractions, and just having a complete and total honest conversation about the whole thing would be really helpful. And I don’t mean you approaching it as you have this post, by telling people how good her childhood was and how wrong she is, or how much worse other kids have it. Just listen.

Firstly, I think it’s always going to be a bit hard when you are the eldest by 5 years and have 2 younger siblings who are very close in age. My cousin is in that exact position and always felt they had a bond she was never fully involved in, it is pretty normal because naturally being close in age they played with the same toys, had the same interests, could do the same activities etc, the older one is always “on the outskirts”. It also means that while your oldest has presumably had to compromise on holidays and trips for them, they obviously don’t have to do that. Yes, it is pretty normal and part of life, but it’s still shit for the oldest. She’s going to feel left out and a bit put out that while when she was 15 she was stuck trailing round legoland, now they are 15 they get to do what they want. It’s a natural reaction for your oldest, you can’t argue with it, just acknowledge that yeah that was probably hard for her.

She’s also well within her rights to be a bit annoyed if you are now more relaxed with the younger ones where you were strict with her. It feels like favouritism to her, and that’s exactly what it looks like. You can’t argue with it, acknowledge that yeah, you didn’t mean to, but you can see why that feels unfair and makes her angry. It is pretty normal, my parents actually did the same with me and my sister, I’m the eldest and it was like being in jail sometimes growing up with lights out times, no tv time, if I left the house had to agree a time back and stick to it etc, now my younger sister is the same age and does what she wants🤣 it is irritating! Acknowledge that!

Being the oldest is hard sometimes, especially if that does mean she has had to listen to conversations of “we can’t do X because of money” and yet you chose to have more kids. That’s how she see’s it and it’s also how lots of adults see it, having more children at the cost of the lifestyle of your existing children does feel unfair. She’s allowed to feel that way.

You admit there was a horrendous 2 years due to PND, so she’s probably not wrong that it was a toxic environment during that time. Of course that’s not your fault, but as a child surely you can see why it has caused these feelings for her? She DID live through that, and you perhaps have no grasp on how she experienced those times. When she tells you it was toxic and stressful etc, don’t try and defend or argue back, acknowledge that yeah, it was probably shit for her.

You’re spending too much time trying to change her mind about her own lived experiences and not enough time just apologising and understanding.

@SadandStressed3 - you wrote "Basically, she feels that she had a very unhappy childhood and now doesn’t want to have a relationship with us (apart from us continuing to support her at university and keep her during holidays from university)" and she wants to cease having a relationship with you.
So basically she is looking for emancipation from you?

I'd tell her fine - she doesn't want a relationship, then she doesn't get the advantages of your support while she attends university nor can she stay with you during her holidays from university.

As she is now 19, I think she is even too old for emancipation but she isn't too old to fly the nest and be left to her own devices. I'd even go so far as to ask her when she wants to cease contact, and say "Great, I'll let the bank know that I'm stopping payments to the university from that date and your rent will be due X days after that so you'll have to look after that too, as we'll be stopping payment on that date" and see how quickly she still wants to remain in contact with you.

If you feel that you're being taken for a ride, you could prepare her that (depending on how many more months/years she has in university) she will be responsible for her expenses from next term/new college year/whatever. You are no longer going to pay for someone who is being ungrateful.

By taking a firm line with her you are not denying her feelings, you are accepting that she no longer wants a relationship with you. It comes with being an adult and particularly when people want to go very low or no contact with relatives/friends.

Please understand that these are just the ramblings of someone on the internet and you do not have to pay attention to them. Good luck with whatever you decide to do here.

If Op didn’t care it would be easiest thing in world to say ok off you go then and cut all financial connection and stop offering her a place to live in the holidays.
Op clearly cares and is worried about her hence posting on here.

It doesn't surprise me that medical professionals are sincerely touting myths about SH. I know a few people who started off with small visible cuts who then went on to cause themselves huge amounts of damage.

Plus, what absolute bollocks that SH has to be bad enough to 'count'. It's exactly that kind of horseshit that makes it escalate.

As for your relationship with DD, you've described her in such a way that many people on the thread now have the impression that she's an attention seeking spoiled brat who has had no real problems for her entire life. She must feel invisible under your eye. You're absolutely determined that your own opinions on her childhood are immutable facts.

I really suggest you learn how to listen to her side of things without feeling the need to 'correct' her with your own opinions.

I think it sounds like a mismatched EQ with IQ. She's not as emotionally astute and I wouldn't be surprised if she is ND. That's born out by her lack of forming deep lasting friendships. There may well be behaviours in others that she misintprets or simply doesn't get. Because she is academically clever, it leads to frustration. She's going to expect that she should be as right about reading situations as anyone, therefore, if it's not something within her, it's got to be everyone else who has the problem.
Perhaps CHAMS focused on signs of personality disorders and abuse as that is what they see daily in children, when really a psychological assessment for ND would of been a better path, so that she could see that she has an internal reason for her relationship difficulties, and that is nobody's fault, and there is no blame required.
Do you have any family members who have been diagnosed with ND on either yours or your DH's side. There are often genetic connections.

If she wants to cut ties then cut ties. But this includes paying her through uni and housing her during holidays.
She’ll be back grovelling within a few weeks 😄

There are the ones that want to help, support and lift other women up.

The DD is a woman too, one who is young and recently mentally unwell enough to justify a year under CAHMS. I am here to support and lift up her.

Do you have any family members who have been diagnosed with ND on either yours or your DH's side.

DH is an engineer. This makes him the obvious place to start looking.

@Mrsttcno1, no, I said upthread and got berated on here for saying so but I said I was 109% open to hearing her truth.

I have apologised to her many, many times for the 2yrs I was ill. I wouldn’t describe it as toxic as to me that implies bad intentions. A friend is recovering from cancer and her kids have gad do little time with her over the last year but I’d be horrified to hear them describe it as toxic as she’s been very ill. I don’t a parent being less available due to illness can be thought of as toxic. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t hard for her or miserable at times. I fully acknowledge that both on here and to her. But I don’t accept it was toxic.

Be kinder to yourself OP. Every family is dysfunctional in its own way. Sometimes when there isn’t an obviously abusive element it gives children the space to overthink. I guess the majority of first born experienced sibling jealousy at some point but life was too full of other stuff to bear a grudge against parents permanently. (Even if one grows up hating a particular sib).
We all try our best but no childhood is likely to be truly idyllic because our individual needs vary as does our ability to match the child’s needs.
Reading some posters comments we should consult our pfb before we assess whether we should conceive another child, taking into account future events such as possible ill health.
If you are able to have a civil conversation OP ask DD what future outcome she would prefer. A future without any family support or maybe contact on a level she is comfortable with.
Good luck

I didn't have a toxic upbringing, and we were dirt poor. It wasn't perfect either. And I recognise a lot of what your daughter is saying. Sort of. Because I was an eldest child too, I just wasn't an entitled brat. Being eldest means your parents test out parenting on you. It means that they've become exhausted trying to make the rules by the time the second and third comes along, so yes, they get a bit more leniency. Woo hoo, I am so sad for her.

That doesn't mean that her feelings don't have legitimacy. Nor does it mean yours don't. But it's very simple. She feels that she wants no contact with you because of the hard life she had as an eldest child, then she most certainly must have at it. She must not expect any money, she must not expect a bed, never mind a bedroom. What she cannot have is both. No contact means what it says. If she wants the money, the bolthgole and support when she wants it, then she needs to stop being an entitled little missy and wake up to the fact that nobodies life is perfect, and only children expect fairy tale lives.

I do hope your younger children don't know and never find out what their brat of a sibling is saying about them, because they would have a really grteat reason for going no contact - with her.

OP, I have to jump in to agree with the idea that your DD might be autistic. I think the path forward may be for her to learn how to accept and love herself, trite though that may sound. The poster who flagged up EQ vs IQ is onto something as well. Don't have a lot of time to type out a post but the years between 18-25 or so can be exceptionally difficult for ND people. There's a lot of brain development going on between now and age 25, too.

Some massive projection on this thread! Of course, the DD's side might be totally different but we don't have that. All we can do is offer OP advice based on her assessment of the situation, which I think sounds measured and well thought out. I think comments further suggesting how DD might be thinking and how she might interpret OP's words and actions are very useful but some posters are really jumping on everything OP says. I know professionally that CAMHS do not only get involved in children with severe mental illness and OP is right that they were easier to access 6 years ago. It is also not fair to ask what the OP did for her daughter and then to jump on her and claim 'stately homes' for listing these things. It is obviously much easier to list material experiences than it is to try and put feelings into words. I don't think this means that the OP thinks that a new bedroom or weekends away cancel out the difficulties her DD experienced. She has also been very honest about what wasn't great in her DD's childhood and how she tried to rectify this. It is completely understandable that she wants to even this out by explaining what she tried to do well in her DD's upbringing.

OP, it sounds like a very difficult situation all round and I have no further advice to add but just wanted to support you given some of the comments here. It does sound like your DD is a very black and white thinker, and I too was questioning neurodiversity. Growing up, I think it can be difficult to realise and accept that your parents got things wrong but that that doesn't make them bad people and that they still loved you. Life is complicated, growing up is scary and it is a difficult lesson learning that your parents are not infallible. Furthermore, if your DD thinks very logically then it probably is difficult to understand why you had more children when things were happy without them. Of course, adding to your family is a very normal and reasonable thing to do and there is more to life than logic, but this can be difficult to explain if she is a very black and white thinker. You weren't to know you'd develop PND. Your daughter should be encouraged to explore her feelings and to verbalise them to you but I also think she should understand that you are just a person too, and one who had to cope with young children, a husband working away and PND.

As an aside, I do think that current social media really encourages young people to view themselves purely as individuals (rather than part of a family unit or other community) who don't owe anybody anything and who were let down if parented anything less than perfectly. As having a child is a choice, then their parents deserve no thanks for what they did right and receive a lot of blame and criticism for what wasn't perfect. Of course, life isn't this simple but I really do think this is the message that a lot of young people are getting.

But there is a difference between hearing her and accepting what she is saying. If all you’re doing is listening to her and then saying “well I disagree with xyz”, all you’re doing it arguing with her.

Also, you don’t get to decide if it was “toxic”. Toxic absolutely does not require there to be bad intentions, you can have a toxic situation where nobody is deliberately in the wrong, and I don’t honestly know how you can argue that when for 2 years you were suffering with PND, with 2 younger children and an absent husband/dad, that was “not toxic”. That actually sounds like a perfect breeding ground for anger, resentment and toxicity. Is that your fault? No. But it’s very possibly how it felt to her.

If you can’t even accept here, anonymously, to strangers that your daughter has a point then I think the best thing you can do is let her go because evidently you are more bothered about “being right” than you are about fixing things.