How am I going to get through this :( (long post sorry!)

[MyHeadIsSpinning]

I've been with DH for over 10yrs, married for 1 and have a new baby. LO was born prem and we have been going through hell but she is home now and doing well.

DH has always been indecisive and before each major milestone, getting engaged, a house, married etc he has had a panic and discussed splitting up as he doesn't think he loves me enough to get engaged, buy a house, get married etc.

However once we have talked things through and he has had his stress he always decides that he does love me and wants to be with me.

Surprisingly getting pregnant was one thing that he didn't stress about and was really happy that we were expecting. When I delilved LO early and it was touch and go for me and LO - apparently cos I was out of it but have been told by various people - DH was a bit of a mess which was understandable, ie couldn't speak for crying. However he won't talk about this and although has been supportive during the weeks LO was in hospital on SCBU I feel he could have been there for me more than he was.

Over the weekend things have come to a head. We've been having a few niggly arguements and he has said over the past few weeks that he isn't sure if he loves me enough (again) and has been thinking about us splitting up. Yesterday I made a real effort - did my hair and make up etc and tried hard to make an effort - we had agreed to do this the night before. However DH didn't notice the effort I had made and was sullen all day only speaking when I spoke to him etc. When I cracked and said that his behaviour was upsetting me and I was upset that he hadn't commented that I looked nice - he said that he hadn't noticed that I'd made an effort and didn't think I looked as though I had particularyly

We had a 'discussion' during which he told me that;

He feels it would have been easier if I had died when havign LO as this would have ade things easier for him ie wouldn't have to decided to stay with me or not - this really hurt and he knows how bad it sounded.

He doesn't feel that he loves me enough and wishes that he's 'had the balls to leave me before marrying an having a baby'

When I asked why he married me he said he thought it would be a solution to how he was feeling about being not sure about the relationship and everyone else seemed to think it was a good idea. He was NOT pressurised into marrying me or indeed even staying with me.

The arguement went on until I said that I wasn't prepared to share our baby and him be a weekend dad. That isn't why I brought her into the workd to be passed about between two homes etc. I told him that it's all or nothing he either has us both or looses us both cos I'm not beign a part time mum and our daughter needs a full time dad.

He went to walk out of the room and I asked him how he felt right then - he replied like he wants to die

I left him to cool off and then went upstairs to see him. He was sat on the bed crying. He Said that he loves our daughter and doesn't want to be a part time dad but isn't sure that he loves me enough etc. He broke down and cried so hard he was howling and holding on to me - this is not like him he cries but only a little. This was a major breakdown kind of cry.

We have decided to see how things go for a couple of months and both make a real effort to make our marriage work He has said that he would rather fall back in love with me and make it work but at the moment isn't sure that this is possible.

I just feel so empty and don't know what to think. Part of me feels so sorry for him cos I love him and he is hurting and I want to make things better but can't) I have suggested that maybe he is depressed after the birth and the general situation and he said that he doesn't think so cos he just feels the same way as he has previously.

On the other hand I'm so angry with him for what he has said and that he is taking away this precious time with my new baby cos I can't enjoy her as much as I would cos I'm worried about the future and being on my own if he does leave us.

He finds talking difficult so I'm off to buy a couple of notepads for us both to write our feeligns in about the relationship and anything else over the coming months - I feel for me it will be cathartic and help when I really want to talk and he doesn't, for him I hope that writing down his feeligns and fears will help put them into perspective and help him to work through how he feels whatever the outcome may be.

I just feel sooo sad and can't stop thinking about what he has said and also part of me thinks that maybe we shoudl just call it a day and I can move on and find someone who does love me although not sure this would work as the person I want to love me doesn't Also I really don't want to be a single parent.

I am doing as you all suggest!

He has sent me an emailsaying that he is sorry. I've ignored him.

what is he sorry for? Running two relationships at once for months or the fight on holiday or for the hurt to you and your daughter or just himself?

That's what I have been wondering! I think most likely he is feeling sorry for himself now that he has nowhere to live, limited access to his daughter (who incidently he hasn't even asked about since he left)and the harsh reality of facing up to his family has started to kick in.

I really would like to think that he is sorry for what he has done to me, the hurt he has caused, the betrayal but if he was then he would be saying more in his email or in a letter as I suggested. A full 9hrs after I suggested if he had more to say he should write it down all he could come up with was "I'm sorry. x"

So hurtful. But I suppose if this is what he is like then I am definitely better off without him.

He will be feeling very sorry for himself - he will be looking for sympathy wherever he can get it at the moment and looking for someone who will back him up. That could be the ow.

If you do ever think they may be a chance you need to tell him just how you feel, and what he needs to do.
Dont burn your bridges and all that.

If it was me i would reply and maybe ask what he is sorry for - or say how sorry you are too for the breakup of your family. dont get into personal stuff but show him what a wonderful person he is losing now.

My h did a runner too when he couldnt handle all the crap - now he looks back and sees that i WAS still supporting him and his family whereas the ow was just trying to undermine everything i was doing.

Does he have anyone he can talk too about all this apart from the ow? You could always talk to his parents and without 'blaming him' telling them that he is in a low state and needs some support.

Take care

happywoman - you don't think that by replying I am walking into his trap of being there for him and /or appearing needy?

I would be lying if I said I didn't deep down want to give things another chance if they really could work.

The thing is he has repeatedly said that he doesn't want to be with me, not in love with me thinks he loves the OW etc.

I'm scared of asking what he is sorry for and it being just a trick for him to get a chance to make me feel bad again.

Also I don't know if he is with OW right now and by replying to him I'm going to look stupid.

feel so confused.

....I sent a txt
Saying I'm sorry that our family has been broken up.

Felt this was better to say than asking him why he is sorry. Thought by doing that it sounded like I care too much what he wants/thinks etc, which I do in a way but don't want him to think that!

Just hoope he doesn't think I am apologising!

Suppose I wait and see how he replies now.

completly understand how you feel. But if you dont do everything in your power to save the marriage then you may always wonder.

What i did was to make sure i never really said it is over - but asking for some space is ok - you know your own boundaries and if he has crossed them (which he has with the ow and texting) you have to stand your ground.

It is not a game but i do feel that there are things you have to say and do to get the advantage back to you iyswim.

My h now says that my dignity through our troubles makes him feel proud. ow said some awful things and as i pretty much guessed what she was saying anyway - my h was astounded that i seemed to 'know' - but that the advantage of being a woman .

You do have the advantage with your dd and all the years you have together, dont throw all that away just for 'scoring' points against him.

If there is someway you can leave the door open for him but making it quite clear what the rules are - ie ow must be totally out of his life ......?

When i say work on yourself - make sure you are acting in the way you want to and not just reacting to his behaviour. I looked at the 'faults' i knew i had and started working on them.
One of the things i made a pact with myself was that however badly he treated me i would never lower myself to that level and so was still polite and even pleasant when i saw him. (he soon saw what he was missing too ).

The hard part was handing the children ower to him - but again i took a deep breath and put on a brave face and let him see them as much as he wanted at first.
Our breakup on lasted a few weeks - i was making sure the children were busy and it hurt him a lot when they would rather do the things i had planned than see him - but then i was letting them have lots of sleepovers .
I also asked him to babysit and then go out - once was only to have a cry in the supermarket carpark . He wanted to ask what i was up to but knew he had no right to ask.

I remember my h saying how sorry he was blah blah blah....
I used to reply that i too was so very sorry that the children had to go through all this - it was not what i/we had planned and so on.
I tried very hard not to blame him or her (this is very hard to do).
But i think if you show him you are sad rather than angry (you can do angry on here or later) - then the guilt will be placed firmly back with him.

Dont appear helpless - which it doesnt seem you are anyway. You will appear strong - but very sad, and he will have to admit that is down to him.

Also dont worry about how you feel or react there is no rule book to follow - just do what you feel at the time.

Good luck and if you want to chat you can always cat me.

I'm panicing a bit now....I have said it is over no way back - I don't really mean it. Shit

How can I tell him that I would take him back if he made the right effort and with time etc without looking stupid and needy.

Also he has said he doesn't want to be with me anyway....

Shit Shit Shit

He hasn't replied to my txt

Dont worry - that was heat of the moment, just as he can not mean what he says if it will ever work you will both have to forgive of lot of words (and deeds!).

Try not to dwell on it - he will have to contact you again and instead of being aggressive about it you can be 'sweetness and light' as far as he is concerned. Be reasonible without letting him think his behaviour is acceptable. You will not be letting him walk all over you - just being a very nice person.
After all fighting is not going to get you what you want now.

My h said the best thing i did was not to 'beat him up' over what he had done. He felt/feels bad himself he does not need someone to remind him of it all the time.

Acknowlege that this is his deccission to not make a go of it - and it is not going to be your 'nagging' that drives him away.

You can do this - and it cant make things worse can it.

You are doing well and remember you have done nothing wrong to break up this marriage.

Thanks HappyWoman.

He has just txt and said that he is really sorry. he knows how stupid he has been and wishes he could go back. he has asked if we can talk yet....

Don't know what to say - should I speak to him? My gut feeling is to ask him to email me what he wants to say and then I can decide if I want to speak to him in person...what do you think?

he ha destroyed you and your marriage and has been gone...3 days?? i think he will have to work a bit harder than a text dont you? He is trying to make himself feel better/less guilty.

if he wants you MHIS he will have to work for you,no?

MHIS - I feel for you.

I haven't read the whole thread, so this may be redundant but I agree that he is probably depressed and that if humanly possible you should ignore his very hurtful comments.

I think he is probably far more affected than he even knows by seeing you and the baby nearly die. Some men, and he does sound emotionally immature, are just overwhelmed by not being able to help their partner. To be a bystander in that situation must have been awful and he now has a form of post traumatic stress disorder, if you like. Everything is muddled and peversely he thinks he wants the very thing he was terrified of (you dying).

I appreciate he had problems before, but he did love you on your wedding day and I am sure he still does.

Stresses like the ones you have both undergone test every marriage, and if one partner has a tendency to depression and over analysis it will be worse. Just when you need most support, they are unable to help.

Try and step back, see this as an incredibly difficult phase that will resolve and you will get through it.
Good luck

I've arranged to see my counsellor. Going to see her in an hour so until I've done that have decided not to contact him and will see what she suggests.

Will update later

good luck with the counsellor.

There is never a right or wrong to handle these things so whilst we give advice only do what you feel comfortable with and what you want.

Take care

hope you are ok

i guess you are not sure of how you feel hence the withdrawal.

Take care

Here is the post - I'd used a RL name! so had it withdrawn!!

Counselling was good. The counsellor said that in the sessions he had never shown any remorse and that she felt he could never be the person I want unless he sorts himself out and deals with his issues. She said that this will take a long time - at least six months of counselling.

She also said that she does think he slept with her. I still do doubt this but don't know if I'm just being silly.

She said that I should avoid contact at all for a few weeks to give myself space and time. I txt him and said I didn't want any contact with him and asked him to respect that. I said that I may speak to him in a few weeks regarding DD.

He txt back immediately saying okay but he will need some stuff from the house. I replied that if he lets me know what I will pack it up and arrange for it to get to him. He has sent a list of what he wants.

When I got home I realised that before I sent the first txt about no contact he had emailed me saying how sorry he is and being apart has made him realise what he has lost and how much he has hurt me. Apologised for saying he wished I had died. He said he wants to talk feel so alone without me. Said he has been crying - added that he doesn't want sympathy - think he just wants me to know he is genuinely (!?) upset. Said he is missing DD.

He ended by saying that we can work something, anything out.

What he didn't say was he loved me.

I've not replied. I know my counsellor has advised against any contact but I think I am going to email and say that I can not speak to him until he makes an effort to sort himself out and start to deal with his issues. That way I'm not saying I will never speak again but neither am I saying I will just speak t o him. He needs to make that effort before I can even start to think about contact.

What do you think?

I will not be replying today - he can wait a while for the reply

Well... ive read this whole thread over the last couple of days and I think you have been amazing and strong.

don't contact him now. Hold on.

Remember, this is a man who thinks you are not the one for him because you 'don't have a sexy smile'

Bastard!

I would be tempted to tell him to piss off and find a smile he can be happy with. Superficial git. But then I've had half a bottle of wine down my neck! Grrrr on your behalf.

Stay strong. You deserve so much better.

MHIS - I'm both very sorry to hear what's happened and very pleased to hear how well you're coping with everything.

I know you have a DD only a few weeks older than mine, so hats off to you for how strong you're being.

You said probably the most insightful thing on this thread so far:
"I'm scared of asking what he is sorry for and it being just a trick for him to get a chance to make me feel bad again."

That's the measure of him. He is manipulative and he enjoys emotional dramas, and the easiest way to get them is to cause you pain.

I think you're absolutely right to cut contact with him for a little while.

Right now he's just shocked that you've finally chucked him out. He'll do anything to just get the upper hand back. You could play this game with him if you wanted and you might even win.

But if you want a husband that is fully there with you and for you and your daughter you need to let him sort his crap out and come back with some kind of emotional honesty. All you're getting right now is self-pity and more of the same old drama.

It almost made me laugh bitterly when he wrote to you that he'd been crying. Anyone who's read this thread knows how much he likes to turn on the waterworks to get a reaction from you and so he can be cruel to you and then still end up being comforted.

I've been reading the thread and the message I am getting is that in the long term you want him back, but you have come to realise that the way he has been behaving for most of this year is not good enough for you. So you want him back but only if he is committed to the marriage and the OW is gone?

If that is the way it is, then i would say that there are no guarantees that you will get what you want, but playing games or point scoring is the worst thing you could do now (not that you have been doing these things).

If I was in your position I'd think seriously about the advice that HappyWoman has offered. You've given him a shock now by throwing him out (which he obviously needed) but from now on you have behave like the sort of person he would choose to be with.

That is harder said than done in any separation but much harder when this OW is hanging round. However how nice a person can she really be when she was forming a relationship with a man who had some free time because his wife was in hospital with their newborn daughter? Make sure that there is nothing in your behaviour for him to complain to her about and then let him find out for himself whether he wants to be with her or to make a go of things with you?

You never know, you might decide at the end of all this that he's not good enough for you but for now if you do want him then you've got to be the better option.

Quinne you understand me completely! Deep down that is what I want - probably get shot down in flames by some people for saying that after all he has put me through.

BUT I'm not stupid and I know it is going to take months before I can think about allowing him back in my lfe IF at that point I choose to do that.

If we have any chance of a future with him his efforts are going to have to be monumental and 100% genuine. Nothing less will be enough.

He must also stop any contact with the OW.

I have composed a reply to his email which I am going to run by a friend before I send but basically says

His words and actions have devasted me and despite being given multiple chances he repeatdly let me down.

He says he feels alone without me. I have felt alone since the birth of our DD.

The person he has beome is not the person I have a future with. The person I need is someone who supports, loves and respects me. Someone I can trust.

I feel he needs to resolve his own issues and look at why he has behaved so badly. He needs to want to do this and do it for himself.

Until he is able to take responsibility for his actions and take these steps I am unable to have any further contact with him.

What do you think? I feel that this points out that he has devastated me and as he is atm I don't want him. He must make changes and then I may consider a future.... Just wanted to get in about no contact with the other woman but not sure if I can get that in without it looking as tho I want to make a go of it...kind of if I'm acting as thou I don't want him back what does it matter if he sees the OW - any suggestions?

Hopefully don't sound as though I am saying we have a future because I don't want him to think I am a push over and he can win me over but I don't want to completely close the door on the relationship I want him to work at himself and in turn our relationship then I can decide if this is what I want and if he is someone I can be with.

MHIS - I think everyone knows you want to make things work with him.

And that's a real strength - to know what you want. Look as your DH. He's a mess because he doesn't know what he wants in his life. But you do.

And nobody will shoot you down for that. You want what you want and you are married with a young baby, so of course you want your husband and your daughter's father to be part of your family with her.

But you can want something and do your best to get it without letting someone treat you appallingly.

Your letter sounds pretty good to me. See what your friend says, she presumably knows him in RL.

"He says he feels alone without me. I have felt alone since the birth of our DD."

"Just wanted to get in about no contact with the other woman but not sure if I can get that in without it looking as tho I want to make a go of it...kind of if I'm acting as thou I don't want him back what does it matter if he sees the OW - any suggestions?"

Not sure. I don't see any particular reason to act as though you don't want him back. I think the message that he needs to step up and start acting like a decent man and husband and father is clear.

As for the OW - from what I've read she's not the central issue here really. He seems as non-commital about her as he does about your marriage - a symptom more than the actual problem. I'm not sure I'd bother stipulating no contact, because I'm not sure contact with her offers him a lot if he isn't going to get to rub your face in it.

She just seems so utterly unimportant. I'm not sure she merits a part in a letter like this. I'm sure others will disagree with me on this.

"Hopefully don't sound as though I am saying we have a future because I don't want him to think I am a push over and he can win me over but I don't want to completely close the door on the relationship I want him to work at himself and in turn our relationship then I can decide if this is what I want and if he is someone I can be with."

I really hope he can grow up and be the man you and your DD need him to be.

I?d leave out any reference to the OW for the moment because

1. It is implicit that he should leave her anyway when you write (I?m paraphrasing) that he has behaved badly, hurt you deeply and that you could not continue with him as he seemed determined to continue behaving that way.
2. There is a chance that he isn?t even with her (very small chance but it is there)
3. Much more likely he thinks she is such a good person. He probably thinks she is so understanding about his wife and his confusion etc etc

I think its better to not give them anything to talk about with regard to you, or better still for your husband to irritate the life out of her by saying how great you are. If you write now asking him to give her up, he will tell her what you said and then she?ll be able to play the victim to him. ?Your wife wants us to give up each other. What we have is so special. But oh, I am so afraid that you?ll go back to her, after all you two have a long history together and a baby. I don?t want to lose you but you must do what you have to do.? Etc. Then the next thing he?ll have put your letter to the side to comfort and reassure her. It seems to me they have done a lot of talking about you and I bet she?s been very sympathetic to him. She won?t like it if he starts saying nice things about you and she might even start to b**ch about you, which would be great for you because men really hate that. At any rate if they have nothing to say to each other about you, then maybe they will start to actually get to know each other, and hopefully not like what they find.

As to the future, I would have thought it was alright to not make him think your mind is not 100% set against him (you don?t want him to give up). So just say you need space and time to get used to what has happened and leave the rest unsaid.

Maybe other MNs will think this next part is an especially bad idea, but I think you should encourage him to stay in touch with your DD. Babies change so quickly so despite all that has happened between you it is a shame to exclude him from this and honestly you don?t want him to become estranged from her. She?s too little to send out of the home for visits, so how would you feel about telling him now that you?d like him to have access to her to start as soon as you feel up to seeing him?

I don't think he will consider you a push over because you've been marshalling him for months into resolving this and when he didn't do it, you threw him out. It is true he has not shown you any respect... but hopefully that will change.

That's a good point from quinne about him keeping in touch with your DD.

Whatever happens between the two of you, he's her Dad and it's important that you continue to support their relationship. It seems like you've been doing the lion's share of the parenting so far but have always tried to make sure he and she have a close relationship. It would be a shame to lose any of the progress you've made with that.

Are you still excl. bf? iirc you were recently. That will make overnight contact difficult. Does she take any bottles of EBM so that he could take her out for the day?

okay.... so if I change the paragrah re "until he takes responsibility for his actions and takes steps to sort himself out I can't have any further contact" to

"until he takes responsibility for his actions and takes steps to sort himself out I can't even consider any future for us.

This way I'm not saying there is a future but there may be if he works on himself and us.