End marriage over housework

[MarySplitmas]

I can't quite believe I'm writing this and I have read hundreds of threads on this topic over the years yet here I am, considering divorce over housework.
Background - together 14 years, married 5, 2 kids aged 1 and 2, 2 dogs and renovating our house. Crippled by nursery fees but we just get by.
He works 50 hours a week. I went back to work 5 months ago to a new job that's WFH eventhough it's a huge pay cut (I used to be a teacher and worked more and earned more than him, but needed more work life balance) 30 which I do when kids are at nursery then I make up a few hours after they are in bed. Neither of us do any hobbies at the moment though we used to - life is just so hectic.
I had a shitty upbringing with a narc mother, 4(?) stepdads and some awful experiences. I think this is why when we first got to together I was happy to play house and do most of the housework as I just craved that calm family home and slipped straight into the stereotype, I just wanted a normal family.
Fast forward to now (after kids) and oh my goodness. The resentment is like a poison in me and I can hardly look at him. I feel like I do so much more in terms of cleaning, tidying, laundry, tidying and he 'just doesn't see it'. A few months ago I completely lost it and said he'd have to start pulling his weight when I'm back at work, he promised he would but nothing has changed. He didn't seem genuinely sorry either and I just feel like a nag whenever I ask him to do something.
He says he has no time and he's right, he's not in any way off playing football or watching TV or anything ever. But I do the chores with the kids on my day off or on the weekend while we're all here - holding the baby. If he's holding the baby or playing with them, he won't do anything else. He says that he does more garden and does all the house renovations which is true, but by gardening I mean mowing 3 times in the summer and when he's renovating, I take the kids out for the day so he can do it.
He has really low standards and wouldn't be bothered by dust or a dirty bathroom. He isn't bothered by mess. I don't touch his laundry.
Is this fixable as I feel like I can't see a way out?

I love nothing better him playing with our 4 and I can get on lol. Much quicker than the little ones under my feet. Other days we swap and he will do what I've asked needs done

First of all make sure you are correct,

Itemise the time spent over a week or two. And his too.
I did this once. I was surprised he was doing more than I thought[time spent paying bills for example, and "outside" jobs].
That at least helped me to calm down.

Then I itemised where I wanted him to do more[around what he was already doing].

I made the list and showed it to him.
I knew some of the jobs on the list he did not like doing[fair enough, we all have those].

Then I knew what he could do more of to help.
It never ended up perfect, but it was an eye opener to me, and to a certain extent him.

I kept the list for about 1 year, and amended it through the year.
I also showed it to him, to remind him from time to time, the huge lost of chores that need doing in a household.

I think your priorities are wrong when you are upset he spends any time with the children because. all he is supposed to do so either be at work earning money or cleaning the house. It is really unfortunate for your kids that neither of you spend any time with them other than to engage them while cleaning. I think you have your priorities all wrong. To feel that cleaning and chores are more important than time with the kids and that life should only be work and chores is really a horrible way to live. Your view hat he is a bad person for wanting to play with this kids and that he shouldn’t be spending time with them because the bathroom could be cleaner is no way to live life. You say you like to do drop offs and picks up but why - couldn't someone else do that so that you can clean more? Why should you get any time with your kids when you begrudge him that. If my husband told me that all my time needs to be spent cleaning or working and that I am not to play with or engage the kids unless I am cleaning at the same time.…I doubt he would get a ton of support of people saying that the only important thing in life is chores and cleaning and I should know that I need to forego anything everything else in life including time with my kids.

Another one saying get a cleaner. I have a baby and a 3 year old and I do much more tidying as I go, putting away washing sorting out everyone's stuff, organising family activities etc etc so I do sympathise. It's less overwhelming because I have someone come in to do a full clean every week. When I went back after maternity leave last time I used to do quite a lot of housework during toddler's nap, but my husband earned more and contributed more to the household pot so I just felt like I was using that time to keep the show on the road at home and didn't really mind.

What you want him to do (tidying as he goes whilst in possession of small kids) my DH just wouldn't be able to do because it's too much multitasking. In some ways it's not desirable and it's good to just actually play with the kids? The toddler is always asking me to stop doing the dishwasher or whatever and play with him! I'm holding/feeding the baby in the evenings at the moment whilst he puts the 3 year old to bed, cooks something and tidies up downstairs. Other than bedtime these tasks are probably not done quite to my standards but they are done and I just have to let it go.

Would recommend collectively getting rid of as much stuff as you can as less stuff is much easier to tidy, making sure everything has a home for putting away and getting a cleaner. If you still think he's crap told for some home truths.

I normally totally get the OPs frustration with threads like these but I think there's a few things going on here.
You're both tired and burnt out. Perhaps he needs to do more but also, you need to be happier with doing less.
The happiest families I know live in quite chaotic, messy homes. The fact of the matter is with two very young children you can't keep on top of everything. If you try, you'll be resentful and never stop.
Either get a cleaner or lower your standards.

It sounds like you're making a rod for your own back with the cleaning.

I have a high tolerance for mess - e.g, I almost never dust. So what? Why is de-scaling the shower screen more important than spending one-to-one time with your kids? Surely there are 1000 more interesting, more important things than you can be doing with your time? Obviously there needs to be a certain standard of hygiene (no dirty dishes sitting out for days, toilet cleaned, clothes washed regularly etc) but when you have young kids and a job, it's okay to let some of the more unnecessary household chores slide.

It sounds as though you have a good husband who has been brought up in a household where having everything spotless is just not a priority. I am similar to your husband but that doesn't make me a terrible person.

That said, this is clearly an issue for you and a decent husband would understand that and up his game. But honestly, it's okay for children's rooms to be a little bit messy. The world won't end. There's more important things in life.

I've been wrestling with similar but just one child aged nearly 3 and two full time jobs, no renovations, we're both naturally a bit messy.

On mat leave I tried to do more as I had more time, same on return to work as I was earning less/wfh. Now earning more and regularly feeling ready to murder him leave chiefly because he doesn't do the dirty jobs that I hate too- mopping and cleaning toilets. Have had repeated discussions for years now and there has been gradual movement towards things feeling fairer. A cleaner would be lovely but I only need them when messy food gets dropped on the floor (immediately or it stains 😢) and ten minutes now and then to clean the bathrooms so it's not really a level of work a cleaner would take on.

I will say though that aspects of The Organised Mom Method helped, eg laundry in my regular daily routine rather than a big ad-hoc burden to argue/moan about. We only argue about the things we've not got a routine for.

Toddler dropping nap at 2.5 and going to bed earlier is honestly what has helped the most. We now each have fixed evenings off agreed for exercise/hobbies/social which helps more than anything else. Babysitter is probably a good suggestion.

Your kids will grow up faster than it feels at the time, I would say don't let the short term struggle of the next year or two make you make the long term harder than it needs to be. Can renovations wait 2-3 years? Can you drop house standards for short term or get a cleaner?

My husband was telling me I was depressed and needed to see a dr because I was so narky , I was saying I just needed him to do more. To appease him I talked to a free counsellor through work who suggested metta meditation. I think it's actually helping, maybe I do need to just chill the feck out and prioritise good vibes over organisation and hygiene! Good luck, hang in there, these times with them small are so precious.

Unless it’s an app I just ain’t gna happen.

just being realistic here!

When I was part time I did the bulk of the cleaning and to be honest my dh is utterly useless at cleaning but I have handed over full responsibility for other jobs like the weekly food shop and meal planning. Work out what things he won't mess up too much and make those his job, then don't bail him out when he hasn't done it. It's painful but he will learn. We've had to eat some quite random dinners at times but my dh seems to have got the hang of it. The trick is going through the crappy bit where he has to learn from his mistakes such as ordering too much fresh produce and not checking the dates, or not thinking through cooking times and who has football after school etc.

@saffronsoup thanks for that 🤣
'neither of you spend any time with them apart from cleaning' 🤣 I'm talking 15 minutes on a Sunday before we go and spend the whole day out with our kids and our dogs . This morning before he went to work we have played tea party, had a pretend gymnastics show, played balloon games with the baby and I still found 5 minutes to empty the dishwasher. But obviously I'm a terrible parent.
I also never said he was a bad person.
I absolutely do not think cleaning is more important than spending time with the kids at all but if neither of us does it....who will? I'm not asking him to clean instead of being with the children. It's more like on a Sunday morning, I will whip the hoover round with the 2yo helping me with her own mini hoover, we make a game of it. Or if I'm brushing my teeth, I'll quickly clean all the toothpaste and marks out of the sink. I'm wanting him to open his eyes more. He would never ever see the wet washing in the machine and chuck it in the dryer, for example. A job that takes a minute and can be done with 2 little kids.
I don't keep the house spotless by any means and am not some kind of clean freak. I just want to keep on top of the worst of it and he hasn't helped with that all. He will make the fire and leave ash and dust all over the carpet because he thinks it doesn't matter. He will give the kids breakfast and leave all the Weetabix spills all over the highchair and table and honestly would just serve the next meal meal without thinking to wipe it down. He gets the baby dressed and leaves the dirty nappy, change mat and pyjamas strewn across the sofa. If he needs the sofa later, he just moves it all to the floor. I just feel like I'm cleaning up mess that he creates at the moment.

Thanks @christmasdarkness
I think lack of sleep isn't helping and both kids are early risers at 5.30 so we're both tired.
I think I do need to let some things go, like the dusting and bathrooms (not that I do them properly very often).
I think WFH has made it worse as I see these things throughout the day, whereas when I worked out of the house it was out of sight, out of mind.
We had a cleaner for a few months when I went back to work full time after my first and it was great. I'll see if we can afford it again but the 2x lots of nursery fees wipes us out. I can't wait for the eldest to get her 30 hours and then that money can definitely cover a cleaner!

@WonderingWanda that's good advice, thank you! I think that's where we've gone wrong. He does the food shop but I keep a list of what we've run out of, then I'm annoyed that he doesn't check it. So not I'm not going to do that at all. If we run out he will learn that going to the shop at 10pm for baby formula isn't fun!

@likepeddlesonabeach I'm going to look into it today, thanks!

@ThePaperTrail you are right and and I definitely need to adjust and meet him halfway. I by no means think he's a terrible person (or anyone else).
I'm not spending all my time cleaning by any means. By cleaning I just mean keeping on top of the basics. If he lived alone he honestly would not clean the toilet, hoover or have enough clothes to wear. If he did his share of the basics I would happy.
He went away for 2 weeks with work once and I found it so much easier.

Ok so its not proper cleaning you're expecting of him with the kids around just tidying as he does. I would find this incredibly annoying too. My DH does it a bit with leaving clothes strewn around etc but not the kitchen mess. I'm afraid I occasionally do petty things e.g. he used to leave his clothes on the floor every night for me to pick up and I started putting them in a bag under the bed until he ran out of pyjamas etc.hes stopped doing it

@Sandpitnotmoshpit I think that's it. It's because I'm annoyed about this that I then think about all the other cleaning things that he doesn't do. Truth is, I wouldn't mind being responsible for the bigger 'cleaning' jobs if I felt like was doing his bit when it comes to the day to day mess. I try not to control his things, so he leaves his clothes absolutely all over on his side of the bed but it can't be seen from the door and he likes it that way so I just don't worry about stuff like that.
But I do worry about things like shit stains in the toilet which he'd never ever think to deal with 🙈
One of the kids was sick a couple of weeks ago (I was away for work) and when I got back the next evening he'd had scraped the worst up then left a towel it on the floor in her bedroom and forgot about it. So then I'm scrubbing the carpet when I get in just before the kids bedtime. He'd stripped the bed but left the sheets in a pile in her room eventhough she was completely fine the next day and they'd spent the day playing at home. This is the kind of thing I mean that builds resentment so then whenever something else happens I just can't cope.

This is bigger than housework. Like a pp said that's a symptom. He needs a complete mindset change. He needs to learn integrity. He needs to change his views on women. He needs to give a shit what kind of partner he is and what father he is. What role model he is setting for his children.

This is absolutely divorce worthy. Op shouldn't lower her standards. He needs to get into counselling and re educate himself. It's not 1950s anymore. What kind of person let's their partner struggle on or needs cards to help them learn how to share the load. He isn't a child. Op does it. No one got cards for her. It isn't her job to mummy him into a full grown adult. He needs to take inniative for himself. The motivation should be being a decent human being that is constantly growing and evolving to improve themselves. If he wants to live with his below par standards on all fronts he can do it alone.

I think you need to explain to him about creating a job.

for example, if he changes the baby but does not clear up the dirty nappy and dirty clothes, he isn’t doing a job, he is creating a job- he is creating mess which later needs to be cleared up.

Does that make sense?

Same for taking the clothes off the clothes rack. If he doesn’t fold the clothes and put them away he is creating a job which then needs to be done later.

So when he does a task, he needs to do the whole job from start to finish. So a baby change means change the babies nappy and clothes, put the clothes in the washing bin, the nappy in the bin and put the changing stuff away. There should be no trace of the change having taken place. If there is anything left around then he hasn’t done the job- he has created one.

Would he understand this if you explained it to him? To me the first step will be to let him know about job creation.

The thing with the sick is absolutely grim! One of these things per day wouldn't be a problem but this scale must be driving you mad. How do you think he would respond if you made a list of things you would do to tidy up which he doesn't and used it to start a conversation?

@Sandpitnotmoshpit I know right! He said they'd just been busy and totally forgot. But why should that be a valid excuse.
@bonzaitree a few months ago I did this, made a list and everything but he was very defensive, said I was accusing him of never doing anything, raised how he does all the renovations etc. It went much better yesterday and he wasn't defensive at all, making me think it's sunk in a bit.
We discussed him creating mess last time but he always says he was going to do it later, he had the baby so couldn't do it straight away, I do it before he has a chance etc. 1yo is going through a very fussy teething phase and is very whingy if not being held which is of course fine. I feel like mat leave with 2 under 2 taught me that sometimes the baby has to cry for 1 minute while I do something (like clean up sick!) whereas he really struggles with that and once he's holding DS can't multitask in the same way I do (sweeping up with one hand etc!)

I know it’s hard OP, but can you make yourself leave the messes he creates?

So with your example of the nappy / clothing, could you leave it for a while and then say « this is an example of you creating a mess- this dirty nappy was left on the couch and then you went out. So I have the option of clearing it up or sitting with a stinky nappy next to me. Do you understand that this creates extra work for me and isn’t ok?

Before jumping into divorce, you both obviously need to sit down and chat and then come up with a fair solution. I recommend both (so not you alone!) constricting some sort of cleaning schedule and sticking it on the kitchen wall so you can both see it and know what’s expected each day. Give him half of the household tasks to do so it’s an equal split and don’t be tempted to take over his jobs if he ‘forgets’ to do them. Even if this makes the house a bit messier to begin with, it’ll be worth it to make him start helping out.

If it doesn’t work and he’s still taking advantage, try counselling before divorce. Honestly, unless there’s abuse at play or someone has cheated, divorce should be the final resort when kids are involved.

@RocketIceLollie yes, we must make everything easy for the man!

FFS.

OP don't ever call yourself lucky. Full equality, which you don't have, isn't luck.
It should be the minimum.

His defensiveness is a bullshit tactic. He's not a baby, he shouldn't need reassurance of how great he is before he considers the needs of others.

He genuinely thinks all this is too hard because his standards for how easy his life should be are different from yours. You work from a place of the reality of what needs doing, he sees his own needs first and then tries to fit reality around that.

@Friedfriedplantain I should have put 'lucky' in inverted commas as that's definitely not a sentiment I'm on board with! I just mean that's how society would view my situation.
I guess I'm struggling with the difference between differing standards. Like I said, he wouldn't care if I didn't do it and feels that the world won't end if the bath isn't scrubbed now and again. So what if there's toothpaste in the sink. Who cares about dust on the windowsills. He feels like it doesn't hurt anyone so what's the point in making work for ourselves. Whereas I want it a certain way and have been told by others (not him) that if that's how I want it, then I should do it. Interested in how others manage this because I just felt like I couldn't love with him anymore.
Before we had kids he would be renovating our previous house every evening and weekend so I did all the cleaning. We shared cooking. This worked fine until recently as now I don't have the extra time to clean.

*live with him