December 2023 - So we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

@binkie163 Yep, broken hip. And what I LOVE about this forum is no one says “your poor mother” There’s a brilliant camaraderie here of great women not having to hide the fact that their family members are utter shits. The support is for people enduring the abuse and now having to pick up the pieces of their health shit. I'm keeping out of it. I'll support MM, Ill deal with social services, but that's it.

Xxx

@MonkeyfromManchester I notice on here that counseling recommendations are for specific types and qualifications. I understand they have training but hard to understand something properly if you haven't experienced it.
Many years ago my GP suggested anger management for me, that went well. Counselor asked me to think of something that made me feel angry [fucking easy] and how I would react...ooopsie. She left the room for 10 mins, I was just hitting my stride. She came back in and said she couldn't continue as she felt very intimidated 😂 shit job choice then. I always found judo and kickboxing easier than talking about stuff, it taught me discipline and I loved the competition.

@binkie163 I always had myself down as a talker, not a fighter, but I think this shit with the Hag since 2020 has released my inner warrior. I am tough as fuck about her now.

I think counselling was good for me, but it's definitely not for everyone. The last person I saw was the funniest woman and I could imagine sitting in a pub with her howling and getting hammered.

The anger management story has me howling.

I've never had counselling...

I have this awful mental picture of me spilling my guts to an increasingly horrified counsellor and them hitting a big red button on their desk and me being carted off to some sort of facility 🫨🙄😖

Which is silly, I know.

I'm in a pretty good place wrt siblings and mum. Vlc with 1 sibling, pretty much nc with another.

Mum won't change. So I've changed how I react to her.

It's working (for now anyway...)

There are so many posts today impossible to read them all for me sorry.

@MonkeyfromManchester fair play to MM stayed in the hospital till 5am until she got a ward. That's amazing of him. Well done for sticking to his boundaries so far 👏

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau Sorry to hear the story of the houses you lived in since being a child while being renovated from scratch with the purpose of making a profit (again and again). I can't imagine the level of extreme discomfort you put up with.

Also do not discard to pack your bags one day and move countries to leave your NM behind as some of us did. It's not bravery, sometimes it's about seing the opportunity and just go. You need a job somewhere and accommodation. You are an English speaker, you will always find a job and accommodation is way easier to find in Europe.....just a thought!!
I saw myself for years as the mouse you describe. I was also depressed in my early 20s. Then one day I pack my bags with the excuse of learning English and experience a new culture for a few months and never looked back.
But I'm sure there are other ways to deal with it of course. The main thing is for you to forget about the spectrum you explained. We are all in different parts of the spectrum at different stages in our lives. It's not fixed, you can move when you are ready.
You aren't a mouse. You are only going through a bad patch.

@MonkeyfromManchester - with The Hag being in hospital, Mr Monkey is very much in-the-clear from a contact point of view. He can leave her there and know that she will be getting fed, getting attention, and getting on someone else's nerves. No need for him to visit. Crack open the wine and put the phone on DND.

@user8800 - I had therapy a long time ago, although at the time I did not realise it was anything to do with my familial relationships. It was life changing. It helped me to understand who I am and how I came to become that person. It also taught me that the only person who is responsible for my happiness is me. And that same rule goes for everyone. We cannot make other people happy and vice versa.

Therapy isn't for everyone I guess, but if you find the right person to help you navigate rough seas, then I would say it's worth its weight.

Thanks to everyone. I already have diagnosed ptsd, anxiety, depression and agoraphobia. I do my best every day to survive and try to enjoy something. I have been a LOT better recently and starting to feel like me again, but now this.

But no this is all on top of that. I think Christmas started it up for my DP as it was rubbish here.

We don’t have separate areas I can retreat to sadly. I have, during and before therapy a couple of years ago, changed a dining room into a separate small living area for hobbies. That’s supposed to be my little room but it’s cold this time of year, only way outside so people won’t stop walking in and when my sons here and not at work I can’t use it due to the noise he makes above me….DP makes noise from wfh above another room (that’s the room that was going to be my sanctuary but since 2020 has been changed into a home office) It’s the floorboards, very loud telephone conversations etc. When it’s nice weather I escape to our tiny garden normally.

And yes my DP knows I prefer time completely alone to recharge and feel ok, he used to work away half of the week which worked fine. 2020 ended that for us.

But this time it’s all linked to how he’s being with me, he won’t talk to me about it or explain I have tried but he just stops the conversation and walks off. So then I just withdraw even more. I’ve said to him I can’t live like this on top of everything else and if it’s not going to improve I will move out.

My therapy they initially enquire about the problems, but then turned out to be linked to my childhood v a decade of domestic violence, unbeknown to me but therapists know which questions to ask.

But then no not at all they focus on you thinking about things differently. I spent all of my sessions crying etc as was in a really bad patch. A lot of the techniques are available to read about online and in books and I’d already tried all of that alone. If my MH illnesses had not have been so severe I would have been ok from just practicing the techniques alone.

My agoraphobia type illness (seems like it’s called that but different to the norm due to my horrific past life) was terrible at the time so things like rationally working out why my mind is being hypervigilant (in a bad way ie counting every single person in car park, every car, every numberplate, every threat….so my mind couldn’t take it) and then when out and I can’t say for example breathe in the car because of a panic attack due to number of other cars near me focussing on grounding techniques instead.

Most of what I suffered has now decreased when I go out with two years of practicing the techniques and learning to manage my illness. (Go me 🙂)

But if my family have been in contact and stressed me out it can get very bad again instantly and I can’t walk out the front door. My mind tells me stuff like look how they just treated you and they are your ‘loving’ family so of course the stranger down the road is a murderer…that sort of thing 😰

I get it @CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau I’m the one who quietly survived my childhood.

I’m the one who quietly survived a decade of domestic violence. The only way to survive was to show no emotion or pain whatsoever so you have to ‘swallow’ it all.

But I had to be extra human style strong and remove myself and my child from that situation (the court case damaged me in other ways afterwards too) as it got to the stage that one way or another I will end up dead. And once out I spent 20 years blocking everything trying to pretend to be ok to give my child a normal life, I would have come across as strong and independent in that stage to others.

Then my mind and body collapsed on me and I’m now learning how to be the real me 💐

@Tbry24 go you indeed! That’s super impressive. Thanks for your feedback as well. I’m really glad your child gave you the incentive to protect you both and while it’s not on the same scale I sort of get it as I’ve not had the strength to walk out on my mother before (she’s much bigger than I am and can literally corner me and has on many occasions done so or at least come back in two minutes later to finish shouting) since we got our little cat who has sort of adopted me as either her mummy or very large kitten - can’t work out which yet - I now have both the strength and the cat armour (she is much nicer to animals) to walk out, taking the cat who is normally cowering at the shouting with me, and keep my strong face on for a bit to cheer the cat up. At least that can get me out of the line of fire not to mention the cat! But having someone to protect does fire you up. I personally wouldn’t have a child right now because of the genes I’d pass on, my mental instability and the fact that I’m on a waiting list for intensive psych treatment (in a hospital). Also I’m definitely not having a child just to have the strength to get out! Not implying that you have done that, I’m sure you had loads of other wonderful reasons and are a great and cycle-breaking mother.
@MonkeyfromManchester and whoever suggested the self-neglect is connected to the ASD, I agree and Monkey I’m sorry you have been through that too. Because I’m not eating at all I’m constantly cold and not sweating and my boyfriend who is being lovely about me going through a bad stage so far commented after two weeks of me not having had a bath that I didn’t smell at all other than my hair being musty. I then had a supervised bath very quickly to wash my hair. But I really go the whole hog with it and don’t make a fuss about it.

That’s also why I can’t pack my bags and go home. I’m on the point of another emergency admission due to my anorexia in particular and packing a tiny bag for the hospital (phone, charger, security blanket and toothbrush) sounds like a huge ask along with getting dressed and let alone the huge wait just sitting up in a chair.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau I hear you! It's finding the energy to get dressed or even put on my trade-mark red lippy. I treated myself to fancy dry shampoo and hair mist as I just could not be arsed when feeling low. So sorry to hear about the anorexia. Hugs.

@Tbry24 that's the experience I had with therapy. I did some courses in it - I was accepted for the next level and the Hag had some bullshit in 2020 - and I dropped out. The training was about gently lead8ng someone to what the issues are, supporting you and helping identifying practical solutions and how to protect oneself. I'm so sorry to hear about not having the space you need to decompress. I go to my bedroom and create a nest of biscuits and magazines. People don't always understand the need for quiet time and solitude. Mr Monkey used to think it was rejection, but I explained it to him and he gets it now. You are an incredible person warrior woman to survive all that, but it takes its toll.

Hag update.

She now has a ward. Sadly, not a cell. Whining away when there are people much worse off. Doctors were talking to Mr Monkey about a no resuscitation option when Hag’s hip is being operated on. He went into a real spin and was very tearful later in the afternoon. I get his fear, but, to be honest, the doctors aren't going to resus to an 87 year old woman. I will offer my services. I'm generous like that.

Anyway,

“Should I go back to the ward?” TRAUMA BOND.
“If you want to.”

He was in such a state that I went with him. I made it very clear that if she started on me or him I was walking out (to the pub nearby)

She was relatively well-behaved.

Moaning (of course), asking after my mum’s injured back (me: “oh you know mummy monkey, she just gets on with it and DOESN’T moan), she would LOVE my mum to come a-cropper, Hag doesn't want an operation (tough)

A few hints about moving here (FUCK NO. NOT EVEN FOR SUNDAY LUNCH, BITCH) so Mr Monkey dodged the question.

I went down the corridor to get her some water “oh, is she going now” yes, that's right I've packed my bags, fucking off and you can move into my home.”

I managed really well, very yellow rock and hardly spoke. My visit was an assessment to see what games she's going to play. I can now see exactly what she's up to.

DRANK A TON OF GIN.

Social workers contacted me this AM.

What adjustments does she have in her home? Is this not written down anywhere?!?

I made it perfectly clear that we are not taking charge. She is not living here. Yes, her clothes remain FILTHY and there is no fucking way that we are assessing her for where she lives AS LAST TIME I LOOKED I WAS NOT A SOCIAL WORKER.

@MonkeyfromManchester OK so now real talk. A broken pelvis particularly in a woman is often a precursor to death in an older person, which might even be a sign of hope for you. The fact that she’s been ungrateful to be warded when I’ve got to the point of begging to be lying on the ground after hours on a plastic chair is a bit incomprehensible to me - those plastic beds are a bit uncomfortable but you get pyjamas, communication with loved ones, iced water, other food and drink (sorry I’m an absolute ice fiend) and crucially a bed and some camaraderie from others who are in the same boat. The nurses and HCAs are normally absolute angels too even if they are busy.
You are holding firm and if you don’t mind me saying it might be the moment for the conversation with Mr Monkey where he has to hold even firmer or, which is exactly the opposite, admit how vulnerable he is or just whatever is needed for social care to realise you aren’t stepping in. Obviously he’s an adult and it’s nobody’s place to choose his actions. Him visiting and doing stuff for her is not going to help overworked and exhausted social care staff realise they need to step in. It’s between a rock and a hard place and it’s probably even harder for MM with the trauma bond. But if social care are trying to get her out of hospital and there’s someone washing her clothes and visiting her daily they are not going to prioritise her. It’s going to be difficult for MM but you might both need to go NC for a while for her to get the care that all three of you need.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau aw, thank you. 🙏

Yes, there's a 33% chance of that. Big chat with my friend who's a doctor. “I’ve got good news for you, monkey, about the outcomes...” joy to my ears.

he’s just home and will be keeping away and not going every day or most importantly saying when he is going as she will ring him constantly demanding where he is with the screaming escalating.

Actually, she won't as he accidentally on purpose left her phone here.🤣

He now picks up the phone when he wants to. And there's no voice mail on his phone. Proud of him.

It is ABSOLUTELY the bloody trauma bond.

We've refused to take her care on. We won't pop round and wash her disgusting clothes. Since her lung infection before Christmas, we’ve made it clear with a big fat NO.

They kept trying to release her to us. I was really assertive, but, whilst they were trying to push us to take it on, she was blocking a bed. Three days ended up being 10 days. She had a care package in place anyway before her spell in hospital. What was the bright idea? We take on three visits a day? FUCK OFF.

In good news, carers will be taking her to her myriad of hospitak appointments so MM doesn't need to endure her. He's made it clear he's NOT doing it. She's LIVID.

Anyway, one of her plastic apologies today…she was screaming at the nurses last night that they weren't looking after her. I'm not joking but there are about 10 for a ward of eight elderly women with complex needs. She was banging her table. WTAF.

She told MM like s naughty child:
“0h I was naughty last night I was screaming at the nurses. I've told them I'm sorry, but they aren't looking after me.”

She's a fucking monster!

Monkey, one of the things that confuses me about these people is that they don’t try to hide it the majority of the time. She’s clearly conscious that her behaviour is bad and she’s not even disguising it. And for a start it’s for the HCAs to do her daily care and secondly you have to spend roughly ten seconds on a ward to understand that the nurses have about half the time they need to do their allotted tasks. For a third thing (if you come into contact and conflict again this might be worth a mention) banging the table is AWFUL manners and it will matter to someone of her age.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau they have no filter! Or they filter when it's useful to them. Her behaviour is vile. Nurses have NO time.

Spoke to doctor pal and she said if she's being vile to medical staff, rowing with her visitors and constantly using her phone, (Slave Son gets about 10 calls a day and she starts on him), and SCREAMING she could well be moved to a side room. They use this for people who need the quiet and calm, but they also shift troublemakers like The Hag there.

I think they have mini meltdowns in front of some people but not the ones they deem to be more important in their lives. I remember one year bringing my mum out just for a kebab or something and the girl behind the counter was foreign (we are Irish in Ireland) and the girl couldnt undertand my mothers fairly broad dublin accent to so my mother then started taking the piss out of her. I was mortified, she was saying racist things etc. Anyway I just took my food as takeaway and got into the car after she literally told the poor girl to leave the country and 'fuck off home to where you belong'. I was dyihng inside. Then she gets into my car and goes on and on about how I embarassed her by walking out, had some sort of breakdown in my car when i asked her why she had been so horrible and got told 'I have cancer and its all your fault'. I pulled the car over and ordered her out. Shit the things she has put me through that I have allowed. No wonder none of my romantic relationships have lasted nor been healthy.

Oh shes never had cancer just fyi. Shes never had anything wrong with her bar her mind.

@Genuineweddingone my mum pretended she was diagnosed with dementia for 5 years! I spoke to her dr july 2022 about her dementia making it unsafe for my dad, of course she didnt have dementia! fucking bitch. I even checked with her carers who were shocked as obviously they would know and it would be on her notes. That was it for me.
No depth they wont sink to. Just have to leave them to their demented shit and save ourselves x

@binkie163 this is the thing. Apparently after my diagnosis of ASD and ADHD it affected HER so much (I am 46 with a professional career, my own home with no second person on my mortgage, own car and all the mod cons cos unlike her i didnt submit myself into an inheritance I got off my arse and earned everything I have here for my son but then OMG she now has a mental illness. She assumed I wanted attention for it ( I didnt I paid a thousand euro for clarity for ME) so went to HER doctor to say she thought she was having a breakdown, her doctor told her she 'needed to talk to someone' which rational people assume a therapist or friend but no no, she rang my childs SCHOOL and said she was having a breakdown because now I have a 'few' mental illnesses and cannot any longer mind my child. Im still so angry and only what 3 weeks in? I just cannot get the venom but I dont think they see it as that. I read another poster who said their mother was almost infantile and I believe that having read up before that they can maybe have been caused a trauma at a young age and never realy leave that age so where so may not see the damage she has tried to do it almost seems like she is back in primary school 'tit tattling' about other kids. Its fairly weird. Like porcelain doll collection weird lol no offence to anyone who collects but dolls always freaked me out.

@binkie163 and while her dementia was ongoing did she shockingly still remember all the bad things you have done to her? My mams thing is that her memory is amazing but if you look into it, narcs and dementia and alzheimers have connections.

@Genuineweddingone Hell yeah sharp enough to always be demanding, gossip and who was to blame that week for her unhappiness!
She was an alcoholic all my childhood and that is also closely connected to narcissism especially the illusions of grandeur and maudlin pity parties. Alcoholics like narcissist's are selfish at the expense of family & friends, they dont care the damage they cause. I was in Al-anon from a very young age to cope with it.
TBH I was just glad to walk away from it, I didnt really give a shit about any of the reasons, I had made enough excuses for her over the years. Many many people have trauma in their lives and we go on to live productive, successful lives.

Hope things calm down for MrMM xx

@cecile I just want to give you a big hug :( I'm very cuddly and my dc say I always smell good ! x

Today went OK. Took mum out for breakfast - she ate 1 slice of toast 🤷‍♀️

Took her to Aldi - bloody yoghurts purchased 👍

THEN she asked me to sort out a cleaner for her !!
She's finally realised I mean it and am not going to do it!!
Hurrah!

I'm pleased she's accepted she needs help and that I stuck to my guns. I call it "caring creep"...if you aren't super vigilant you end up doing EVERYTHING.

I wash some of her clothes occasionally (delicates) and I don't mind that as I wash everyday.

So I'll pop in tomorrow briefly then I'm coming home to read my new book 📖 🙂

It's very cold 🥶 here today. Keep warm folks x

I'm still here reading. Cousin's memorial is next week.

Found out my sister has been stirring the pot by lying about me to my dad, basically dramatising the situation. I called him to put things straight and he told me ‘you’re not listening’ over and over. He said all I do is rant and rave and gaslighted me - he called me stupid a few weeks ago and is now denying he ever said it.

He was unblocked for that call and then blocked again. He would have definitely gone back to my sister after that call.

I’ve not heard from my sister at all since. No apology for stirring things up, nothing. You wouldn’t think she only lives ten minutes from me, I rarely hear from her… only when she wants something!!

@JH20000 - what you are describing is TRIANGULATION - which is like a drama triangle. The only way to manage this is to remove yourself from it.

There's nothing you can do to stop people talking about you or slagging you off or scapegoating you. People like that don't change, so once again, the only thing you can do is remove yourself and leave them to get on with it.

I have a Highly Toxic Sister who, despite years of me being NC, never tires of slagging me off. I guess it makes her feel better about herself. Whatever her motives, I really don't care any more. She's a nasty, bitter person who will never be happy.