December 2023 - So we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

@JH20000 what I find so weird is there's us just getting on with the day to day work, home, friends and a reasonably quiet organized life and then our toxic family members who want the opposite, drama, drama, drama. They manufacture it from nowhere, then go about spreading it to anyone who will listen. They live lies of permanent conflict.....life is too short.

It is so weird how their brains work. I live the most mundane life but apparently it is filled with drama. I dont make any drama, dont cause any drama and dont get involved but apparently I am an over dramatic attention seeker!

This mystifies me too. I get into a lot of arguments but it’s because my family members want the fight, and usual a couple of minutes in I’m conceding and going OK you win can I go and they only get crosser! And stop you leaving! Then they go and spread gossip to the entirety of the rest of the family and in my case my doctors. Who enjoys this shit? I just want to snuggle my cat (which is becoming more difficult as my mother really is smarming up to her, over feeding her, much more active and mobile than I am and I think she’s actively locked in overnight somewhere else. The other day she was physically removed three times while we were just napping together. Not blaming the cat at all. But my mother started today’s visit with “it’s too hot in here” it’s a running joke with me and my boyfriend that everything is shite in my rooms but the radiator is supposed to keep things at 15 degrees and is probably running quite a lot higher that that. The visit ended with her locking the door - the cat had just got up - saying “I’ll keep the heat in”. Because it’s a bad garage conversion I don’t get much natural light and both parents have tried to get me up and going as early as possible, including opening that door WIDE. I used to prefer to keep it shut but now keep them ajar so velvet can pop in and out. Now it seems she doesn’t want to :(

@Genuineweddingone AWFUL, AWFUL, AWFUL. I bet she didn't believe you had the ‘audacity’ to order her out of your car. They live in a special little bubble where they think others don't matter - unless they need something and that’s a using relationship - and there are no consequences for being utter shits. Everything is about them or they twist your problems/issues to be about them. Hag has cuddly toys. She's the least cuddly thing I can think of.

@binkie163 false dementia? Designed to make you feel bad. Christ.

@user8800 @JH20000 hell in Earth. I take it you are the scapegoat and your sister is Golden Child.

@user8800 thank you. More Hag fun today. She's a joy. Hurrah for her getting a cleaner. It really is a case of being as hard as nails to dodge servant status.

Here at Monkey Towers, we've had fun. Both Mr Monkey and I have been working at home. I'm downstairs making a cuppa - MM works down there - and there is a call from the hospital.

I'm hoping it's THE CALL. SADLY NOT.

Hag’s phone ‘accidentally on purpose’ is here so MM can't be bombarded with 18 calls a day. He has his phone on silent now and rarely answers.

It's the nurse with the Hag full on screaming in the background.

“Bring me my phone. Bring me my phone. BRING ME MY PHONE.”
“I can't I'm working.”
“WHERE ARE YOU WORKING? Bring me my phone.”
“No, I’m at home and I'm working.”
“I don't care. YOU CAN BRING ME MY PHONE. DO IT NOW.”
“NO”
“TELL YOUR WORK THAT YOU HAVE TO COME TO ME. NOW. NOW.NOW.”
“No. Slave Son can bring it this afternoon at 1pm when he visits you.”
“I NEED IT NOW. I NEED TO TELL YOU AND HIM WHAT THEY ARE DOING TO ME. You don't understand they are being awful to me. AWFUL.”
“No, when I came to see you, it was all fine. They are great nurses.”
Screaming - lots of it.
“THEY’RE BEING NASTY TO ME. TERRIBLE.”
MM refuses to take the phone down.
She doesn't get her way. She throws phone back to nurse.
MM to nurse.
“I can only apologise.”
“Don’t worry, love. We see it all the time.”

So, the hag’s mask has slipped.

She's fucking incredible.

@MonkeyfromManchester oh I was the worst in the world and she did NOTHING to warrant it. She always does it when it is just us though so no proof but one time my uncle and cousin saw her at her shite and they pulled her up on it. Uncle has since died but cousin still has my corner and gave me a pep talk the other day which was nice.

Hag-in-law wounds utterly demented. I pitty the staff but I am sure now they can see why she is not welcome to come to your house.

Yeah I agree and I’ve only really thought of it like that to be honest! I don’t like confrontation and I enjoy being as drama free as possible but it’s so difficult when family members seem to make up situations to shit stir.

Me and my sister used to get on fairly well, but she’s definitely changed in the last couple years. She’s become quite aggressive in her manner and how she deals with things. I’ve been going through a really bad few months and she’s been so critical at times.

@MonkeyfromManchester in one way that’s hilarious - YOU MUST ATTEND ME IN PERSON SO I CAN TELL YOU SECRETLY HOW I AM BEING ILL TREATED shouted in front of the person she’s accusing of ill treatment - and in another sad. I always assume that those abusing medical staff are drunk, confused or otherwise at the end of their rope although in that case it’s still pretty rude and unjustifiable. I’m not happy to hear that in some cases yep, it’s just narc abuse.

@mm
Well...the mask has truly slipped now hasnt it?
Hopefully, this now public abuse (I am sure that the abuse MrM suffered as a child was "private"...) will help MrM further realise how evil she is AND show the professionals involved her true behaviours x

I feel like this with my fil...the mask really slipped in public with witnesses a few years ago, and it has made my boundaries (put in place far too late) so, so much easier to adhere to.

Ditto my siblings. I just have no relationship with them. Occasionally get texts from one of them, but that's it. So it makes it easier for me to be nc/vlc.

Wrt mum: I decided 18 months ago that I will do what I feel able to do, and no more. Like my siblings is 2nd wedding: I declined the invite despite emotional blackmail from mum
Her: "well, I won't be able to go then".
Mum: "OK. Your choice. I'm happy to arrange a taxi."
She went, but only because my sibling invited someone to bring her just so they didn't have to deal with her 🤷‍♀️

After the party this summer there won't be any family gatherings for a while...so hopefully no possibility of drama 😃🙌

OK, very very trivial little scene but a bit of a tableau of our family atmosphere. You know my mother is engaged in a competition for the cat’s affections (which I am participating in only to the extent of taking care of the cat). It appears she’s in the lead at the moment as I learned today the cat sleeps on her bed nightly, but she’s rigging it a bit by deliberately waking her up and disturbing her, getting her out of the room and often then shutting her out of mine.

I need a nickname along the lines of the Hag so I’m going to go with the Viper (although whatever those wasps or mushrooms or ants are called which literally get inside and control other…. I think it’s ants would be more appropriate, Viper is short and encapsulates her venomous side and apparent ability to slide under the radar).

Anyway she got back in from her day which she’d been proudly boasting about all morning which was hurtful in a way which was, well, hurtful but I’ll spare you the context for now. My day had been spent slowly preparing for and attending a clinic appointment which was exhausting (travel delays and also I am so physically weak at the moment I needed a sit down between having my height and weight taken). Cat was on my bed where she’d been snoozing for several hours in between bouts of rolling in the dirt outside which makes my bed a bit gritty.

Viper: I can see what’s going on (suspiciously).
Cecile internally: yes you say this literally every time you see her on the bed.
V: [lots of baby talk, fussing, generally making a fuss of the cat, waking her and burying her face in her fur]
C: careful, she’s been rolling in the dirt a lot
V in baby talk: yes and I don’t mind, do I? She is SO CUTE, isn’t she?
C: Yes
V (narrows eyes and tone of voice completely changes to that of a legal prosecutor in front of Myra Hindley) [long series of questions about my clinic appointment including bullying me about the speed of the referral which she does every day and it doesn’t change my knowledge of the process at all and will be answered by my support worker at the meeting the latter has organised next week]
Finally after quite a while V: how was it?
C: I think it was productive but I’m exhausted.
V: fine. Are you coming to sit with us?
C: no.
V: why? (Extra accusingly)
C: … because I’m exhausted.
V: have a bath, you haven’t washed in a month
C: I had a bath last time boyfriend visited which was about three days ago, have washed the most relevant areas since and I’d probably faint either in a shower or bath and be injured or dead
V: that wouldn’t matter if someone was watching you
C internally: are you suggesting you watch me bathe? Um, no. I’m 31 and there’s been enough weird nakedness stuff that nowadays only my boyfriend is allowed to do that. Also you’ve just rubbed your face on a cat who is covered in basically dry mud and then accused your daughter of being dirty without even telling me I’m smelly which is one of her hobbies.
Conversation moves on including discussion of multiple other things.
Parting shot from V after ordering me to “at least keep my light on” and then went “she certainly loves MY bed” while walking out leaving the cat on… my bed where she still is.

I hope you enjoyed my feature-length film script. If you didn’t read it I don’t blame you, I just felt a bit emotional and tearful because I might be losing my furry little ally to someone who is trying to play games I don’t want to participate in. I feel so isolated in this house so often and sometimes she is actually treated inconsiderately - not badly, she’s a spoiled little princess and never been directly mistreated but things like loud shouted arguments when she’s in the room which really disconcert her at least if not make her afraid.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau I hope you're doing okay, your mother sounds a complete nightmare and deliberately trying to goad you with those inane banal questions. Your cat will be loyal, I hope, I don't know if cats do that like dogs?
@MonkeyfromManchester the Hag's hip gives you a breathing space and it's grist to the mill with how she is behaving with the nurses and ward staff. Hopefully her flat won't be suitable for coming out of hospital and she'll need to go into a care home. Your home is most definitely not suitable!!!
I'm reading in solidarity with everyone else and thinking of you.
Here work is manic. It's good because over the holidays I let my FOO take up too much brain space and it was starting to get me down. My flying monkey cousin chose Xmas day to get in touch for the first time in over a year to tell me that my nans last sibling had died a couple of months previously. And all about how she organised the funeral and did the readings etc. Nothing about how the lady's family were doing. Literally nothing. I didn't realise for a lot of years how self-centred she is. Glad I'm very low contact with them.

@user8800

He is MORTIFIED when she behaves like this. It used to be her muttering, but now it's screaming. I think it’s utterly appalling to be screaming at people who are taking care of you.

Oh good one with the “ok, that's your choice” Mr Monkey now does that with The Hag. It shuts them up perfectly.

Hurrah for no further family parties / drama-fests for a while.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau the name The Viper is great. I'm really sorry for how your mother is getting under your skin. They are brilliant at that. If anyone who didn't get poisonous family dynamics or knew your story read the script they would think “nothing to see there”. We see threats, control, your mother’s self-obsession. AWFUL.

With Velvet, get her dreamies…

Hag update

I'm getting the Girlfriend of The Century award as accompanied Mr Monkey to the The Hag’s bedside last night.

Her operation to repair the broken hip is today. He is worried that the op will kill her as she has a weak heart, lungs, very frail etc. I can see the staff thinking it too. Last night’s visit was a “what if I never see her again” for him. SAME FOR ME.

I'm only there to support him as he's in a really bad place. He recognises the trauma bond “i still care for her despite knowing how abusive she was to me as a child and has caused my massive mental health issues.” I'm glad he can acknowledge this and he's going back to therapy as soon he can through the free scheme at work.

I don't engage with her at all in these visits. I can see her covert little glances at me with her piggy little eyes to see if any of the barbs she's thrown at MM is going to get me out of my plastic hospital chair to attack her with a bottle of lucozade. It won't. I'm staying Zen in her presence and it is killing her to have the hated daughter in law there and not being part of her sport.

For someone who is so frail, she is incredibly good at screaming. We had some classics: “I'm going to throw myself out of the window” and “someone needs to come and put me to sleep”

It's a wear your mask ward which is great as I can say “a big fat yes to any of those options” without being heard.

Nurses are sick and tired of her. She behaved terribly on the ward all day yesterday.

We get up to leave. “You can't leave me.” “don't leave me.” “you need to stay with me.”

I see that she's a frightened, frail old woman, but saying vehemently “i’ll never forgive you for leaving me” isn't going to make your son and DIL pine to be in your ever-loving maternal arms.

MM didn't feel bad for leaving her. I was dying to go to the pub. I watched him move her mobile well out of her eyeline and reach, so fingers crossed for no calls. He's got it on silent.

As soon as this latest drama is over, it's back to fuck all contact for me - FAC - and LC for Mr Monkey.

@Parentalalienation Yes, I'm hoping for a care home. A doctor friend has been sending me loving messages with statistics like “33% of people over 80 die within 12 months after having a broken hip. Lots of love. Wine soon!”

Your cousin’s self-obsession is par for the course. Everything is about them.

Reading @MonkeyfromManchester 's latest post about the Hag has got me thinking - for the millionth time - how self-defeating ultimately the narc's behaviour is.

'You catch more flies with honey' is a cliche, but like most, is true. Why can't these people realise if they were just NICE or even VAGUELY PLEASANT to their families, friends etc they would get all the supply they wanted? That people would actually want to spend time with them, help them etc?

But no, bully them, scream at them to get what you want. Other people don't have feelings that can be hurt, only their feelings matter.

My maternal grandmother was a narc, it actually worked for her. 3 of my uncles gave up their whole lives to look after her. Both my parents are narcs, my father disappeared off with another woman when I was 21...which of course made my mother a million times worse. 'Luckily' I had the sense to move to the other side of the world when I was 25. That's 30 years ago, this year. After 30 years of trying to explain it all to others, getting the usual 'But she's your mother' type response, I now just tell people I have no family. A lie, but it shuts them straight up. To all intents and purposes, I don't.

Best wishes to you and MM.

They are going out for a meal at an expensive restaurant after a fun morning shouting at me so Velvet’s going to be stuffed with Dreamies if she comes along. The shouting included the very fun line “we’re so stressed about you basically killing yourself but if you want to it’s up to you” - which is another one of those ones which sound like a parent driven to the edge of distraction but get so close to the repetition of “if you want to kill yourself go ahead and why don’t you do it properly this time” that I’ve had before.

She also caught sight of the huge and unexplained bruise on my elbow and demanded to see the massive one on my thigh (I have clotting issues that haven’t been diagnosed as to their source so I bruise massively from things that wouldn’t affect others). It’s very close to my crotch area. She then asked if she could take pictures so she could go and see the GP - without me naturally, she is glorying in her PoA over my grandparents because it allows her to override medical confidentiality - and I was first like NOPE I’ve already got some for a start and secondly you’re not taking pictures of my crotch area and thirdly I’ve requested a meeting with my support worker and psychologist partly to explain the concept of medical confidentiality sigh sigh. But I was also feeling like maybe she’s worried about me being ill instead of just cross? Then she said “it’s because they probably think we’re beating you”. I’ve had this issue on and off for nearly a year but have consistently refuted that I’ve been beaten and instead explained that it’s just tiny knocks - for example I’ll be getting out of my bed which involves climbing over the metal bedposts because the room is so small and if my boyfriend is there and we hear a little clonk noise we’ll just be like yep that’s a bruise. But for a second I was stupid enough to think my mother might care about my health lol.

Sorry, I know these are all very minor issues but as I think Monkey affirmed they all pile up and in context are just really upsetting.

@mm

It's like a magic spell :)
"Ok, that's your choice"
Who knew!?? :)

I've become a big believer in giving people enough rope to hang themselves...I let shitty comments hang in the air, I just look on, calmly with an air of great zen 😀

It's makes the person/people look exactly as they are...abusive twatbadgers

Hope you all have a peaceful weekend x

DEEP JOY. Now The Hag has kicked off and is REFUSING to sign the permission for her operation. Screaming the place down.

Can they force her to have it if she doesnt sign?

I am in floods of tears today. I just feel like in recent months my world has collapsed. Myself and dp broke up and he is refusing any contact with me and I miss him and need him so much. I got diagnosed with asd and adhd and when my mother knows I am going through a really hard time already she goes and does this. Its like she wants me to have a breakdown and some days I feel like I am doing just that. I know I will get over it but just feel today I am drowning :(

@MonkeyfromManchester yes and if she really means it they will comply. She really does sound like she’s displaying some signs of dementia though, is it worth getting in touch with a lawyer about PoA? I’m not sure what that means for medical consent though. Also does she really mean it? The number of times I’ve turned up somewhere shaking because my mother has made a threat she doesn’t mean. Oops.

Why is she refusing? On what grounds is she stating she is I mean.

I salute MM for reaching adulthood, Hag is a world beater of narcissism.

@Genuineweddingone I really didn’t know what to say but didn’t want to leave your post unread. I’ve been through similar stuff and although it’s been not fun at all to say the least I’m still here and in DP terms got a new and improved model.

Is there a friend, family member or even emergency GP or someone like Samaritans to turn to?

Sending hugs and hopes of better thoughts.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau thank you. I have fantastic friends but its the weekend and they are busy with their own families. I also have some kind of flutypething so ds is avoiding me. At least the dog is here for company!

"OK, thats your choice"
Then leave it to the Dr's to decide next steps

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau I used to get bruises from nowhere. It was whatever meds I was on doing something to my blood so it reacted weirdly. I would be getting it written all over my notes that noone other than your boyfriend is allowed info about you. And that your FOO are definitely not allowed to make decisions etc They're a right bunch.

@Genuineweddingone lovely I'm sorry to hear about your breakup. That's really hard. Your mother knows what she's doing. Creating a situation where you 'can't cope and you need her'. Dig deep and don't let her near if you can help it. Glad you've got your dog to look after you.

@MonkeyfromManchester typical that she does that. Now she's -in her mind- going to get Mr Monkey at her bedside giving her all sorts of attention. I'd honestly let the hospital sort it all out. They'll have been here before with elderly people who refuse treatment. And yes, you're right about my cousin. It's been her way all the time since we were growing up. I grew up thinking she was some sort of child genius and that I was thick as mince, because she made everything about her achievements. Between her and my mother family gatherings weren't much fun!

Power of attorney is for those who have emotionally healthy relations and relationships within families. Otherwise it’s a disaster from the get go. Also these have been very much oversold to the general
public and they come with a shit Tom if responsibility.

I doubt very much that either Mr Monkey or Monkey herself would want to be her power of attorney. The Hag is refusing to sign a consent form for her op so she won’t likely consent to a power of attorney document.

@AttilaTheMeerkat
My own experiences of poa is that its fine in principal but dealing with companies and services can be a nightmare...
Even banks who should have clear processes in place seem to have no idea what to do...very very frustrating

Indeed. We as staff were never trained at branch level re power of attorney, to
my mind the whole system re this is broken. At the very least it should be digitised.

Absolutely!
Utterly infuriating!
Took mums (usually very good) bank 4 months to provide a poa debit card
Most of their staff didn't have a clue. Two of them just couldn't be bothered and hung up the phone, several of them didnt update their system so no record of my calls...it was awful.
Once I escalated it, and got through to a manager it was sorted within 24 hours
4 months
Ridiculous