December 2023 - So we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

@Tbry24 hugs to you.

I'm glad the Xmas From Hell chapter has closed. It's taken me a couple of weeks to calm down and mine was an OK Xmas with mummy monkey.

Xmas is pretty full on anyway and then much, much, MUCH worse for those of us with families from hell. Even if we don't see them or are estranged it’s a nightmare.

I think - don't panic. Don't cathrosphise. Easier said than done. PTSD makes you super alert to bad stuff.

Your partner is probably having a similar dip and has been worried about you. Rattiness would definitely trigger bad feelings for you.

Try and work through the feelings

He's going to leave me = NO, he's having a bad day
I can't talk to him = YES, I can. We've had a brilliant 20 year relationship.

Dig out some stuff on dealing with your inner voice.

Can you talk to your GP and access some mental health support so you are getting external support?

Huge hugs. Thinking of you.

It's hard to hear [it was for me] it's not that she is unaware, she doesn't care, your feelings are unimportant to her, not even on her radar. These people are too selfish to consider anyone else, hope you are ok.

@Tbry24 dealing with family bullshit is exhausting, mentally and emotionally. It is hard on partners, my husband knew if my mum had kicked off because I was ready to commit murders and I did not want to be cuddled or talk about it.
You have been together 20 years I am sure it will settle down when you are feeling less on edge. I concur with the others a gp appointment for some support/help xx

Hag was x-rayed last night. Broken hip.

She's still not been moved to a bed as there are NO beds at all, so it's been 15 hours on a trolley or now in a cubicle.

Of course, whilst MM was waiting with her she was absolutely horrible to him until they knocked her out with morphine.

In days past, he would have stayed all night with her, but now he's prioritising himself and took himself home at 5.15am when she got her cubicle.

IF she was a decent human being, he would have stayed, but she's not.

He's not rushing down to the hospital this AM. Why should he?

TBH, my heart goes out to kinder vulnerable older people in this horrible situation of lying on a trolley, not to her. She could be in the Savoy and she would still kick off. She's a nasty piece of entitled spite.

I really feel for MM. He knows it's the beginning of the end. I want a speedy end and for MM to have a better life. I can't bear the idea of this shit dragging on any more.

But…

MM has good boundaries. He knows he’s done his best. No fear. Very little guilt or obligation.
Mine are rock solid.
Social workers are in place.
She's not coming here.
MM is not becoming her de facto carer.
MM continues to be straight forward with Slave Son. Slave son’s choices are his concern, not ours.

@MonkeyfromManchester Poor MM. I think staying to 5.15 am was very kind of him! I know it sounds awful to wish for someone to pass away soon but his life would be improved hugely. Great to see his boundaries have firmed up so much and I hope he continues to look after himself whilst she's in hospital.
As to Slave Son, I think he has to keep burying his head in the sand; the alternative is for him to realise that he has wasted his one and only precious life, which has been marred by serious ill health, on this piece of shit. So long as he keeps making his poor choices he doesn't have to confront that devastating truth.

@Escapingafter50years I think he's a flipping Saint.

I keep saying to myself “if she was my mother I would have binned her years ago” but that doesn't recognise the trauma bond. He's really low this morning.

I've just had the same conversation with regard wishing for Hag’s life to end with a very good friend. She completely gets it. Her words (very brisk head teacher) “well, what would a vet do with a vicious dog?” I howled - get it - with laughter.

Hag is like a VERY maladjusted XL bulldog.

So right about slave son. He has totally buried his head in the sand as facing up to what has happened to his life is too bleak.

I will caveat this with most of the people on this thread being more assertive and capable of self-care than I am, but I think the abused are similar to dogs more than abusers.

Hope @MrMM is getting some sleep?

Sadly, there are 2 extended family members who are very elderly with multiple serious health issues who are still hanging on in care homes after years...

But in the hags case, at least she'll get 24 hr care, and neither you nor MrMM will have to be at her beck and call.

I hope for all your sakes she slips away peacefully.

Mums having Internet issues with her provider- which I should be able to sort out 🙄

Aldi trip with her tomorrow...what fun 😁

@TheBuggerlugs tbh knowing it doesn't make it any easier to swallow. I am a firm believer in personal responsibility, people only treat us badly if we allow it, it's just so much harder with a parent because we keep trying to get it right. Facing the fact that nothing we do will ever be enough for them is soul destroying [bastards]
Once I accepted it wasn't my fault and walked away it was easier. For me the thought of trying to explain it to a stranger when it sounds so bonkers didn't appeal to me. I also don't want to waste another second of my life thinking about my mother or being sad/angry about it. For most therapy is a life saver so worth thinking about it.

@TheBuggerlugs when you say get it out on the table, what do you mean? I’ve had loads of therapy and want to pass it on if I can but I’m unsure what getting it on the table looks like!

I more meant is it in front of the abuser or not?
Try it and decide is my advice. It might hurt but that might be the hurt before healing, like puncturing a boil or abscess.

@TheBuggerlugs I can't change my childhood or how it affected me but I can change how I moved forward. I remember @AttilaTheMeerkat probably rolling her eyes saying drop the rope, get out the boat, block, block, block, Attila must bang her head on the wall. It is just so obvious once you've done it.
All my anger and sadness just became indifference which is peaceful.

@MonkeyfromManchester I hope you muzzle that hag bitch before she leaves her kennel 😂😂 it's the law.
I do wonder what will happen to slave when hag dies, his whole life is about her, he may feel empty and lonely without a purpose and of course she is the reason for his regular contact with you and MM. I do hope he doesn't become embarrassingly needy, don't swap one emotional vampire for another. I seem to remember he was pretty nasty to MM as well as hag. Some people are harder to flick off than a sticky bogey.

I feel very cautious about saying this and it’s a version of what I was asking for permission to say a little while ago.

There is an obvious spectrum of personalities on this thread from binkie and Attila to Monkey all the way (MILES away) to scared little mice like me. We all have different circumstances and personalities and they interact.

So while advice such as drop the rope is excellent and towards the mouse end we need it, there’s also a massive great HOW elephant in the room, at least. Also, as I told a friend I really respect who has moved countries to escape her mother but despite being one of the strongest women I’ve ever known I’ve seen shake on the only instance she had to perform in front of her, there are different types of courage. One is to leave and emerge triumphant. One is to just take it when we have no other alternative.

I feel like there a lot of refutations of the “why don’t you leave him” trope but not enough actually praising the bravery of those who endured just a load of shit for being good to arseholes (I’m thinking for example of nhs nurses who get loads of abuse when they’re doing their best, but it applies in family circs too).

@TheBuggerlugs

I see Mr Monkey clutching at straws to find something redeeming about his childhood. Nothing. I totally hear what you are saying. As humans, we’re genetically programmed to expect good parenting because that’s how the species survives. So, we search for it.

With therapy, I had a qualified person centred counsellor. The British Assoc of Counsellors and psychotherapists (BACP) is the governing body and there is info on what to expect, rules governing counsellors, types of therapy and a geographical directory. It's pretty standard to be able to get a free tester session to see if the person fits you. Person centred counselling is something I've had and it helped tease out the answers - I had them, but didn't know I had them about my abusive twat ex partner - and the counsellor helped me deal with the pain and empowered me to leave. I didn't have to get everything out on the table as she helped to tease them out of me. VERY helpful. It was worth every single penny.

Mr Monkey is having trauma informed therapy where his therapist is an expert in family abuse (physical violence etc). It sounds like it’s much more hard core as she specialises in PTSD. He was hugely guilty about talking about his family “I'm slagging them off” (no, they are twats) and now he's open and honest about what he feels. He hasn't made peace with it all, but he's mostly able to stick with his boundaries and see the patterns of manipulation so he's not cornered.

The best thing about therapy is getting a sense of not being alone and getting tips on how to cope with it and push back.

I wouldn't do group therapy in a million years. The abuser twists it and makes it another point of conflict. I had that with the toxic ex. Loved it in Relate when the therapist made him punching me in my face somehow my fault...right. I walked out.

@user8800 praying for you at Aldi and grabbling with Internet providers. Wall to Wall joy, isn’t it?

I think someone taking the shit on 24/7 will be fantastic. I really believe if she'd taken the luxurious sheltered accommodation - cafe, hairdressers, BAR - offered in 2020 she would be a happier and healthier person. Still nasty but less so. Teeny bit less so. Of course, she refused. And now we are here.

@binkie163 I was going to get dog treats, but no, I'm getting gin for me.

Yes, that was my concern re Slave Son. MM isn't trauma bonded to him and through therapy he's realised that his brothers were huge perpetrators of the endless family violence when he was a kid. Not doing a swap!

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau there's loads of bravery here, from some of us still stuck in the mire to those of us who have escaped. It's a spectrum. We do what we can. Hugs to you.

Mr Monkey at the hospital. He went at about 12. Going to text him. I've just washed the filthy clothes she was wearing yesterday. They stank. Hot wash. A ton of stain remover. This self-neglect is pure martyrdom and punishing her family. Bitch.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau we all have choices and alternatives, we can chose to make our lives better, one step at a time.
I would advise anyone being abused to leave, whether a violent partner, workplace bullying or shit families.

@MonkeyfromManchester your post is making me feel a little guilty as some people use self-neglect for attention and I genuinely don’t care about myself (will wear a dressing gown for ages until I have a medical appt at which point it’s a laborious wash, clean clothing and stuff to basically make me not smelly and presentable, which takes me actual hours). But thank you for the rest of it.

@binkie that’s really good advice. However for reasons I’ve explained here before, it’s really not possible for me right now.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau did you say you had asd before? That would tie in with the self neglect.

Sorry still not contributing much but reading all the stories and still so annoyed with that cow that gave birth to me. Shes literally now trashed my name to everyone she can. I dont care but this is what she has done and she will expect at some point for me to pretend none of it ever happened. Dillusional bitch.

@MonkeyfromManchester just a thought has she been wormed recently 😂

I have heard some brilliant 'relate' stories from friends. One married to a serial cheat, the advice was to focus on what she loved about him, not the extramarital sex that brought home the gift of herpes! I would have kicked the husband and counselor in the bollocks, on my way out the door ffs

@MonkeyfromManchester don't know how I missed the broken hip that will keep her in hospital for a while,

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau I've sat in my PJs for weeks when I had serious depression. I'm normally very well scrubbed. I totally get what you mean! The Hag’s self-neglect is text book attention seeking and blavkmail as she wants Mr Monkey to go round and do her laundry, which her carers are contracted to do. She's very self-aware of looking scruffy. “I look a right state.”

@binkie163 my jaw dropped when Posh Lady Relate said that to me. I carried on with the sessions because X-twat had gaslit me and then a professional gaslit me. Worse because it was a woman. I felt really looked down on and patronised.

But I did get stronger and I left him. I spent our saved up holiday money on a really lovely dress in Liberty. Then I knew it was a sign to leave him. 🤣 I saw the twat a couple of months ago, he was 12 years older than me, and the cool veneer of Mr Manchester Musician about town has been replaced by late 60s ageing hipster in a beanie.

That’s awful Re herpes. It's like those type of counsellors are trained gas lighters keeping marriages together. So glad your friend escaped. I got them from toxic X and they are grim.

Mr Monkey is back from the hospital and is trying to explain to Slave Son that Hag needs an operation, but they can't pinpoint when because the hospital is rammed. Keeps asking the question expecting a different answer. This is what the Hag does.