This is mind games from my sister, right? What do I do

[heyomayo]

I want a relationship with my niece and soon to be another DN but finding it hard to have that. I’ve only seen my niece three times in her life even though I live in the same town. Twice the week she was born. Niece is one next month and sister is a SAHM. I have offered them: my lunch hour, 4pm, the weekend- always offering to go to theirs as I see it’s hard with a baby - yet they’re always busy. Bedtime routine starts at 3pm and they’re out in the day every day I’ve asked. I said I could come after niece is in bed and she has said no. My sister said 7-8am works for them. Anybody who cares enough about being in my niece’s life will make themselves available at that time. If they can’t, they’re showing where their priorities lie. That is exactly what she’s said. We have sent gifts for the baby & vouchers for them, food etc, in lieu of being able to actually see them.

You might read this and think, she doesn’t want you involved. That’s how it sounds, right? Except she is going to our parents in tears saying nobody cares about niece and she expected better from her sisters and she’s sick of pouring in effort for it not to be matched. The strange thing is; she hasn’t once tried to meet us. When I did see her and niece by chance, she made a big performance of asking niece who I was and saying ‘I bet you don’t know who this stranger is’ and put the baby in a carrier immediately, presumably so I didn’t come any closer.

I don’t think it’s PPD or PPA - could be wrong, but she has a history of trying to test me to see how far I’ll go to show her I love her. Nothing I do is ever good enough. I can’t speak to her nicely about it as she flies off the handle and says I am looking for an argument and always taking what she says and does the wrong way. If I deny this, I am gaslighting her.

What do I do? Why’s she doing this?

Maybe you could try to have some compassion for your sister which btw doesn't mean tolerating her BS. But anyone who needs to be that controlling is STRUGGLING imo

She pulling your strings and trying to control you. Just tell her that you fully understand how difficult it is for her to fit you in even though you’d love to have a close family relationship, so you’ll leave it for now and wait for her to arrange something. I feel sorry for your niece, she won’t be a baby forever and will start to notice her mum’s strange behaviour.

100% she is. She’s very insecure and always has been but I struggle to sympathise too much because she is acting badly because of it. If she were just withdrawn or upset I’d find it easier, but manipulating and guilt tripping is next level really

she is behaving badly i.e. manipulating/guilt tripping etc because she doesn't know a better way most probably. That doesn't excuse the bad behaviour at all. I see this behaviour in many family members f my own, it is their learnt behaviour.I observe it regularly but now I have learnt not to absorb it.It is their learnt behaviour ...not mine and its nothing todo with me. Be strong!

What people say to others and how they treat others is very revealing in how they treat themselves inwardly

I don’t know why we should tolerate people taking their bad feeling out on others. It is simple selfishness. Plenty of people have emotional difficulties that they manage without harm to those around them.

If they would think about how others are feeling occasionally maybe their own lives would improve.

Exactly

She is now saying she has done her absolute best to facilitate a relationship, her daughter deserves people who want to be in her life and those who can’t be bothered are missing out. She has said she is sick of it being one-sided (!) and deserves the effort she gives to others. It feels like she is describing my point of view? She has gone to my parents and told them she wishes I cared more about them and that she is ‘not the problem’. Wow. Is there any chance this is her reality and she believes this or does it sound more like she’s deliberately deflecting?

Sounds similar to my experience. Does everything to deny a relationship but says the opposite to others. It's manipulative and serves to preserve her view that she is right, and her and the children are the victims in all of it.

Blame shifting.

How do you deal with it?

@heyomayo You come to the terms that there is no reasoning with the unreasonable. Having lived with my wife for over a decade who did the exact same thing, denied relationships, concocted false issues to blame others for it...there was no winning. The more you tried, adapted, bended the more reasons were made.

She did the same to me eventually.

She is making herself and her children victims of a circumstance that she has created.
Your DP then become her Flying Monkeys, pleading with you to " be nice" to her, possibly turning against you .
Very common in NPD.
Manipulative to the extreme.
Step away, as others have said,she will never change .
I agreed with my DB
Yes our relationship is difficult, I need to work on myself and will need space to do that
Then ran as fast as I could!

They used to do this but they now see that it makes absolutely no sense so they’re just ignoring it I think.

Do you think she knows what she’s doing? My friend also thinks it’s narcissism but I hate labelling things and don’t really want to believe she is actually one!

NPD is apparently rare but it fits in my circumstance and third parties involved regarding the children are leaning that way too. It's too extreme behavior and consistent.

As far as I can work out, yes they know what they are doing but they will never allow themselves to be to blame. You'll notice they don't do it in front of certain people, mostly strangers, they see a different person.

On the other side of it because they don't want to be to blame, they actually believe their lies as truth. You can have witnesses, evidence they will still argue their version and even double down further.

They are Jekyll and Hyde, manipulative, controlling and abusive, children are possessions and not spared this, in my experience anyway. Emotional reactions to everything and they claim the most absurd things most people wouldn't even say because it sounds insane.

No matter what, they are the victim, they are justified, they are special and everyone else is to blame. Nobodies opinion matters, only theirs.

I read something today in Mumsnet and can’t remember it but it was along the lines of her insults are her truth….dies that make sense. It was better put than that. Apologies.

Because she is a bully and enjoys the fuss. I just couldn’t be bothered with making any effort to see her - let her cry and complain and be pathetic, surely everyone will know she’s bang out of order? Your life is far to short to give in to control freaks like her, whatever the relationship.

Insecurity? Perhaps doesn’t want a ‘fun aunt’ in her dd’s life who her dd might love/sometimes even prefer to hang out with?

Kindly meant OP, but if you relentlessly pursue a toxic relationship with her, then sadly you too have huge issues that you should try and reflect upon, and get some help with.

Healthy people do not pursue relationships with toxic people.

They recognise that they can't change others and step away.

They cease to engage and move on in their lives.

They focus on their lives and other healthier relationships and invest in them.

They do not become obsessive about the toxic crazy people, but firmly drop the rope.

I mean the above kindly.

If you can't let this go, definitely get help for yourself via counselling.

Lots have posters have clearly explained her behaviour and have advised you step away as they did, successfully.

Most people come across people like your sister in their lives.

It is unfortunate it is your sister.

You need to decide do you want to spend the rest of your life tossing this around or just put it to one side, and accept it for what it is, something you cannot change nor fix.

This is who she is.

Accept her children will not be in your life.

The thing is this way of thinking is her blueprint.
It's like breathing for her.
For whatever reason she has ended up in a situation where she has to control and manipulate, particularly you but also your DP.
Her " self" as she sees it and the true version of her are at odds.
She has to see herself as the wronged victim,you as the wrong doer to enable her fragile sense of self to exist.
Is she volatile?
Any substance abuse, money issues?
The reality is she loathes her true self and transfers her loathing to you.
This relieves her emotional burden and so she feels vindicated.
It's a false narrative .

You’ve described her really, really well. I don’t think I could’ve done it better. Not volatile and no issues that I know of. Poor self esteem has always been a thing though

Well in my case to the outside world, friends, neighbors and strangers was a totally different person. Behind closed doors was highly abusive, emotional, psychological and psychical.

Controlled everything about our lives, who we saw, what we did, instilled a routine that was never to be broken. A constant need for more, nothing was ever good enough and created chaos.

That chaos ended up in belittling, screaming, rage, throwing things, hitting and eventually silent treatment. We all toed the line as to avoid the chaos but the chaos always came.

Still now nobody knows, her friends thinks she's wonderful and I'm being smeared as abusive.

What does " flying off the handle" look like Op?
Sometimes we normalise these types of behaviours.
I would urge you to step away, resist her attempts to hook you back in and consider a family therapist.
I suspect you have put up with more than you realise.
This is called being the scapegoat

Time to step out of that role.

OP- totally understand the desire not to label someone as a narcissist. I was the same with my ex ( mainly because people think you’re being hysterical)

However, the idea that it’s extremely rare isn’t really true. It’s estimated to affect around 5% of population. So yes, it’s rare, but it’s actually more common than homosexuality ( 3% estimation). I use that analogy as it gives an idea statistically of what 5% looks like. Most people know at least one gay person, right? The difference is that most people are open about their homosexuality to friends and family, but who is going to admit to being a narcissist?

I find actually accepting that someone is narcissistic is helpful because it makes sense of their behaviour ( when their behaviour seems so bizarre). It can also help to develop strategies.

there’s a lot of strategies out there- mainly minimise contact.

I would also ignore pps who say that you have issues if you’re trying to maintain a relationship with someone like this. She is your sister! Also- unless everyone in family cuts her off, she’s always in your life. It’s natural to want a normal relationship, but unfortunately she will never be able to do that

Thank you. I did have difficulty with the way she treated me when it was at its worst a couple of years ago but I made peace with that since. I just can’t wrap my head around why someone might be like this and as you say so much harder when it’s your relative who also holds the power to other relations like niece.

Yes this is the problem with statistics on it. Someone who is always right, perfect will never seek a diagnosis. As far as I am aware they are diagnosed when they are made to by third parties. This is the case with me also, not there yet but it's on the cards through court.

You need to think of it that they will do anything to maintain that image they see of themselves, there is no low they won't go to. They must never be the problem, to blame or inferior in any way. Deep down underneath all the masking they have low self esteem, truly broken people but they are unable to accept this and do these things, pretend to be someone they are not rather than dealing with it because they can't face the truth.

They are Jekyll and Hyde. One is the great pretender, fool people, lie, love bomb partners as this amazing person but they can't keep it up. On the other side to those closest or out of favour they are cruel, controlling, manipulative and abusive, dangerous at times, even to their own children.

Highly intelligent on one hand but emotionally unintelligent on the other. One can manipulate and fool people, study people and learn how they tick and the other is irrational, volatile and illogical. It's either logic rules or emotions do.

They lack empathy or remorse, they can do the most horrible and hurtful things and not bat an eyelid. There is a reason for everything, a motive and that is to remain in power, in control of others and how they perceive them which must be brilliant, amazing, the victim.