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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Can someone with knowledge of narcissist abuse help me on this?

80 replies

Ifyousayso1 · 04/10/2023 09:57

My ex was a narcissist. He is/was unable to accept blame, gaslighted and twisted and became violent and aggressive. He put me down all the time. He used to say things like you think you’re so clever, better then me etc etc.

Anyway I was just thinking about the times that were good. Are those good times real? I know his view of things is not logical but when he was nasty he hated me but when he was not he was nice. If you questioned him he changed. Was he capable of love?

OP posts:
Octobermeterreadtime · 04/10/2023 09:58

Imo the good times are when you conformed surely?

Ifyousayso1 · 04/10/2023 10:01

Yes they are the times when nothing was happening, no arguing, everything on track.

OP posts:
Loubelle70 · 04/10/2023 10:05

DARVO

InterestingUsernameTBC · 04/10/2023 10:12

The conclusion I came to about my narcissistic ex was that we was not capable of true, unconditional love. He wasn't capable of ever putting someone else's needs above his own. But he was very good at making it look like he was putting others first. And I honestly think he believed that he was. But his excuses didn't stand up to scrutiny. When we split up I analysed everything from our time together. I was wrought with questions of why did he do the things he did. I found it easier to let go of the questions. If I asked why I'd answer myself, because he's a narcissist. Was your ex capable of love? Were the good times real? Does it matter? You've had the experiences you've had. They've shaped who you are today and you can't change the past. I hope you can find peace with your situation and move forward positively.

LouH21 · 04/10/2023 10:12

after my ex I now have a PHD in narcissism! In my experience and how I’ve had my eyes opened up the good times aren’t real! It’s them playing mind games and them conditioning you to accept their abuse, because when their nasty it’s makes you forgive and forget because ‘they are not all bad’ as they’ve shown you they can be nice! It’s all an act! If you have insta please follow narcissist abuse coaches on there! Will open your eyes more than you can imagine!

Toothyfruity · 04/10/2023 10:14

Everything is fine with the narcissistic so long as you are playing ball and behaving as he wants you to. That's not love. A narcissist isn't capable of love.

apostrophewoman · 04/10/2023 10:16

I have wondered this exact same thing, I was with a narcissist for ten months up until 3 years ago. At first, I thought I'd hit the jackpot, he was everything I ever wanted, plus amazing sex. I absolutely adored him and we had a fantastic relationship. I am an extremely strong-minded and stubborn woman and I think he struggled with that because I didn't knuckle down as I guess many other women had, and I was obviously a huge challenge. We rowed like nothing on earth, they were awful, but gradually I did start to apologise for things that weren't my fault, I did become a little bit controlled, and it was a hugely awful and stressful time, but the beautiful times still outweighed the bad.

When I eventually ended it, he started to stalk me, first in a love bombing type of way, then in a nasty, vile shouting at me in public and cornering me in the woods when I was walking the dog. I had to have him arrested in the end, but he carried on but n weird ways that, when I told the police, I realise now I sounded like a mad woman. He'd also done the same to his ex-wife. I was on anti-depressants for a short period and had four sessions of counselling which really helped me, and I eventually got over him.

We live in a small town, hence the impossibility of completely avoiding him, and weirdly we have become friends again, which we were before going into the relationship. He's coming over tonight to fit my new blinds. However, he still makes odd comments, little unimportant things, like he doesn't like my skimmed milk. So I tell him if he doesn't like it, he can fuck off and not bother coming again. He laughs. I think if you can recognise and shut down the crap, it's a lot easier, but god, it's exhausting.

In answer to your question, I do believe he loved me totally, but his need for control and dependency outweighed the happiness we did have in each other, and I think it's actually impossible for him to be truly happy because he's too busy looking for that control.

TibetanTerrah · 04/10/2023 10:18

It’s them playing mind games and them conditioning you to accept their abuse, because when their nasty it’s makes you forgive and forget because ‘they are not all bad’ as they’ve shown you they can be nice!

Yes this. Put simply, they're training you by 'rewarding good behaviour'. You know, like you would with a small child.

Literally no one would be with someone who was a cunt all the time. So without even realising it you 'behave' so that you get more of the nice and less of the nasty. And you blame yourself when he's nasty. If only you'd behaved differently, not said anything, done/not done that thing. If only you behaved that way all the time, then it would be good all the time, right?

Personally, I don't think any of a narcissist's behaviour, good or bad, is 'real'. It's all so calculated that it's designed to elicit a certain reaction from you. There's never any real, genuine emotion behind it because it's all manipulation one way or another anyway.

I'm probably wrong with that though.

JanglyBeads · 04/10/2023 10:25

There's a chapter in one of Lundy Bancroft's excellent books entitled "Did he ever really love me?"

Guess the answer.....

I'm sorry OP.

LouH21 · 04/10/2023 10:25

@TibetanTerrah You have that 100% bang on!

millponds · 04/10/2023 10:50

Hi OP. Decade long marriage to ex narc here. Glad to be out, and I think I have a handle on it. But what a head f it is. Be kind to yourself.

I have a helpful way to think about it. You have to think that everyone has a different idea of what love is, and theirs is very dysfunctional, based only on very early experiences which created the damage. To them I think love is when you are soothing their needs, when you agree to like their persona (never their real self, which they gave up on a long time ago and will never really show you, as they haven’t nourished it and it hardly exists any more). Love for them is when you fall into the place they need you in.

It isn’t the kind of love you or I need or would recognise, but for them that is what love is. I expect you did that a lot. But outwardly the only love they can ‘give’ is a kind of swindlers’ routine, a trap and a trick and lots of fakery.

I’m sorry. I expect you were what he needed sometimes but they can’t show or give real love in any meaningful sense.

alwaysalways · 04/10/2023 11:11

It can be hard to get your head around the fact that narcissists aren't able to feel love in the way most people do. Of course they can feel a sort of love but it isn't ever going to be the sort of love that trumps everything. They aren't able to put you before themselves, if it came to choosing between themselves and you, for instance. They can put on a good show of going through the motions, of course. They learn how to act by observing what others do. They take it to the extreme when the love-bomb. That can be very appealing. But if they ever found themselves in a situation where it was you or them, they wouldn't be capable of having your back.
They are the number one love in their lives. You come second but that's not to say that he didn't love you. It literally is all about them and nothing to do with you. You are loveable. In fact, narcs have an uncanny ability to seek out the most loving people as it is from that type of person that they can receive the best supply.

Ifyousayso1 · 04/10/2023 12:25

So they love a person for how well they fulfil their own needs? If you do that job well then all will be well. I guess that’s why I was treated so badly, I didn’t do the job well enough and he always told me so. It took me a decade to realise and by the end I was utterly broken but decided I needed to leave for our daughter. I was so down trodden and sick from taking the blame for absolutely everything. In the end I stopped just accepting the blame and he got very aggressive, throwing things at me and screaming at me. I felt an emptiness in the relationship, it was transactional. If I behaved I was treated better he always used to say. Utter crap.

OP posts:
Ifyousayso1 · 04/10/2023 12:27

His new girlfriend seems very nice. He wasn’t allowed contact with his daughter for many years. He got with her and had a baby very quickly and she is the reason he gets access, she is effectively taking care of her. She has a purpose for him.

OP posts:
Catsafterme · 04/10/2023 12:31

You maybe notice at the beginning everything about you was perfect and I believe this is because they cannot see the flaws in people as they are blinded by their obsession of you playing this role they have created.

This soon fades and they start to realize you are a person with your own opinions, likes and dislikes and they devalue you in order to show dominance. To show you are wrong and they are right, to mould you into what they perceived you were at the beginning.

I think at key moments, at the beginning, at times when things were quiet those moments were real and to them also. That is only the case however because you weren't going against them.

They are not capable of love, they do not love themselves, they do not understand the meaning of it and this is what it is at it's core. It is not you it is them but they must at all costs avoid that feeling of being inferior. What they feel is something else, true love doesn't result in abuse.

Catsafterme · 04/10/2023 12:47

To add to the above. What I meant in terms of real, it's real but not perceived in the same way as you would, I think. I have found they do not process the world, environment, people or themselves like everyone else. You may feel joy, love but they feel something different but the prior is shown on a surface level.

Once you spot it you'll notice they can mimic people, things they have seen as to be the correct response to a situation. They can laugh, smile and cry but it doesn't come across as natural and usually way over the top. Mine could laugh to the point it made everyone uncomfortable and could cry endlessly or on and off like a tap. A surface level response for feeling they don't naturally feel themselves.

Everything is a means to an end, people are pawns that they idolize and eventually discard. They keep people at a distance, short bursts and the ones they keep close or interact with longer see another side.

Eventually when there is no more juice to extract, that person is a shell, they discard. Throw them away like a child with a toy. You are either defective forever or you are placed on a shelf to be picked up again at some point of their choosing. Whether that's a month or twenty years later. Another person they value goes against, swap they are devalued and discarded, you're back in favour.

It's all smoke and mirrors, keep the attention on others, abuse and neglect others and it's not them that's taking it. They will always try to find a way to use something for their own gain or to put themselves up on a pedestal.

LemonyTicket · 04/10/2023 16:29

No lovely. They are not real.

The initial phase of abuse is laying the groundwork for future abuse. They do this by creating wonderful hormones and feelings in you. They ask lots of questions about you and use the answers to create a persona that's exactly what you want. They mirror your interests and good qualities. They act "madly in love", both to disarm you and to get the relationship to move quickly so you have no time to think.

All this enables them to later start switching between the gaslighting and nastiness and the wonderfulness which will trauma bond you to them and makes it almost impossible to leave.

No, people like this are not capable of "love". Their loved ones are just supply sources to them

0lga · 04/10/2023 16:34

Toothyfruity · 04/10/2023 10:14

Everything is fine with the narcissistic so long as you are playing ball and behaving as he wants you to. That's not love. A narcissist isn't capable of love.

This.

They are not capable of love because they can’t see you as a human being with your own feelings / needs / wants/ opinions. They only see you as a walk on actor in the soap opera of their life. You need to pay the part they have written for you.

They love you like I love my washing machine - it does a good job of the work I give it. When it starts making a weird noise or stops working, I will replace it without a second thought.

ChristmasFluff · 04/10/2023 16:37

They love people the way we love our possessions - so they have the same feelings for us as we have for our new vacuum or new car.

That means it doesn;t matter how perfect you are at meeting their needs, because you cannot stay new forever. They will always want an 'upgrade' eventually.

They idolise you at the start, and then discard you as we would discard a broken phone. That's the opposite of love - you cannot truly love a stranger, and real love grows and deepens as you get to know someone better.

Mmhmmn · 04/10/2023 16:44

This by a pp:

However, he still makes odd comments, little unimportant things, like he doesn't like my skimmed milk. So I tell him if he doesn't like it, he can fuck off and not bother coming again. He laughs. I think if you can recognise and shut down the crap, it's a lot easier, but god, it's exhausting.

Interacting with a narc and not ending up drained or an anxious mess depends totally on you genuinely not giving a fuck about them/what they think/the crap they say/whether they exist.

That's why narcs are so incompatible with relationships and family life and so damaging to other humans.

Thisisme23 · 04/10/2023 16:51

This thread is brilliant.
My ex was described as a bully & narcissist by a marriage counsellor and a different counsellor I've seen since also said he was a narcissist - but i've struggled for years to come to terms with what that means. (we divorced 6 years ago)
I've spent many a dark night going over every memory I have of us together wondering if it was all an act on his part - or if those good times even ever really happened. (we were together 27 years) I'm still not even sure if he was a true narcissist - but he was certainly a bully and coercive. but extremely subtle about it! I was very "good" at adapting to what HE needed. :(

These posts are really helping me - and ring so so true. Especially @millponds Thanks so much for posting your words make a lot of sense to me. Flowers

Schadenfreudunsure · 04/10/2023 17:35

No if he was a true narcissist he wasn't capable of love.

A simple way to think of it is that narcissists think of most people in the same way as you might think of a television or a cooker. You may like it. You may enjoy using it for a while - especially when it's new and shiney. When it gets old, dull, dirty or you no longer have any use for it, you will just chuck it out or stuff it in a cupboard and get a new one. You won't think of the other one at all. Except sometimes when the new one doesn't work quite as nicely as it used to and you fancy a change, you might get it out the cupboard to see if it still works as you remembered for a while but this time you'll send it to the crusher once you are done.

LaughingPines · 04/10/2023 18:35

Once they have made their minds up to discard then the mask goes, they also do not feel any pain or nostagia once they go, there is no feeling from them, they may pretend to other's that they are sad (all part of the act) but there is no emotion, they can continue as though you never existed, they would be more upset if they sold an old vac or car.
They can only place emotions on innimate objects, what they leave behind in material aspects would hurt them far more than a long term partner or children. They are completely fake, actors of the highest order.

I've always found a good indicator of someone being a narcissist is how good they are at being bad. For instance I've known arsehole men, who have been arseholes all their lives, constantly abusive, but narcs don't kind of work like that, their image and pretense can fool a partner for years but christ when they drop the mask, they can be evil fuckers, a scorched earth policy but still years after have the ordacity to try and hoover past partners back.

They have no capacity for understanding that others can't forgive them, no matter what they do, they believe love is someone always forgiving them, they have no shame either, with their partner or extended family, they will return and wonder why anyone was so disturbed or bothered by their behaviour, it's almost delusional, if it suits them they can't undestand why people remember or hold them to account.

Very strange people with a warped sense of self, they really are monsters living in human form.

CheekyHobson · 04/10/2023 18:56

I think narcissists are quite a lot more complicated than people on here give them credit for being. They're very damaged people and a lot of their behaviours are toxic, but they often also have good qualities and I do think they feel what they think is love, at some point, anyway. I don't think that in the early 'love-bombing' stages of the relationship they are consciously manipulating their partner. They're literally delusional themselves, and simply overlooking/ignoring anything that doesn't fit with their fantasy vision of themselves or the other person.

When they copy all your good qualities and act like your perfect match, I think they're not really aware they're mimicking and acting. Like if you have a dog you really love, they kind of get caught up in your enthusiasm and feel as though they really love the dog too and suddenly feel like having a dog is something they've been missing out on. So they might say things like "I've always wanted a dog but my ex didn't like animals". The thing about the ex may or may not be true - they may have never even talked about getting a pet with their ex - but I don't think they're saying it maliciously as much as they're just creating a plausible excuse why they never got a dog before if they "always wanted one". I don't think they really think too much about anything they say or do - it's all shallow-rooted.

Of course, as time wears on and the dog needs walking every day rain or shine and the dog gets sick and needs expensive medication at the same time as your narcissist wants to buy himself a new watch, this initial shallow burst of enthusiasm wears off and the narcissist starts to see the dog as a burden rather than a pleasure. There was never any real, enduring love there to start with so when times get tough, they tap out.

That doesn't mean that the afternoons in the early days when you would take the dog to the beach and throw the ball around and your narcissist would wrestle with the dog and call him the 'best dog ever' didn't contain some real pleasure. It's just that the narcissist can only maintain good or loving feelings during the good times.

During times where they have to make sacrifices, do things that serve others rather than themselves, apologise for their actions or wrestle with the uncomfortable understanding that other people don't think of them as flawless and have different opinions and desires to them, they simply can't handle not having things exactly their own way. They are like little children stamping their feet and saying it's NOT FAIR that they can't have the icecream and they don't WANT to go to school and they HATE YOU YOU'RE THE WORST because you want them to put their shoes away or say sorry for drawing on the walls.

Little children learn and grow out of this phase when they're nurtured and supported by a good-enough parent. Narcissists typically haven't been given that (or they've had the opposite - a pushover parent who never said no), and as adults, they have learned to use bullying and manipulation to get their way.

They carry a deep sense of deprivation and entitlement to do whatever they want because they were denied that love, nurture and gentle coaching to develop self-discipline and empathy in childhood and carry a deep resentment towards others. It's tempting to think that you can 'love them out of this' by giving that kind of love now, but the reality is that it needs to come from a therapist who can become a substitute parent figure to them, not a partner. A therapist doesn't rely on the narcissist for anything so doesn't get emotionally involved with them. It doesn't work the same way in a relationship, especially because narcissistic relationships generally become deeply enmeshed very quickly due to the love-bombing.

CheekyHobson · 04/10/2023 18:58

Excellent post from @LaughingPines