Proxy body dysmorphia!

[Donostiera]

Is it possible to have body dysmorphia for someone else? That's kind of a joke but I have an issue in that my husband genuinely thinks I am fat. I'm 43, my BMI is 22.5, most of my clothes are size 10. I have some flabby bits, wobbly thighs (always have had) nice tits (ditto). One DD aged 12. My husband is 60 and our sex life is less than it used to be. Has been for about 4 years. DH was having erection problems and prescribed viagra (I guess he was 'brave' to go to the doctor) but the implication about all of this seems to be that it is ME becoming less attractive that causes the issue. This conversation comes out every now and then, causes a lot of upset, then gets put back in its box. I've never been anything other than kind about the ED, which obviously isn't great for anyone but with the blue pills things are 'fine' in that department. But the idea that it's my fault just seems so bizarre - he has told me straight that I'm not attractive because I'm fat. Btw I weigh a little less than I did when we got married 16 years ago and about 8 kg less than a year or so before we got married (we've been together 20 years). I guess it is less nubile and firm flesh though. The conversation happens once or twice a year and then he is sensible enough to back off because he does genuinely love me and I him. It makes me feel both pretty terribly miserable and angry - it normally gets precipitated by him criticising me for eating too much (hold back on that beef; that pasta will go straight to your hips - low level carping). I really love food and wine and am a good cook, very interested in different types of food. It's a hobby / interest. We've always shared that interest but for him it seems less now - he says his appetite has decreased and in this (and some other areas) I see him more reluctant to try new things these days. So anyway, he calls me fat and wants me to restrict what I eat or to exercise more - solely in order to meet his aesthetic standard. I'm very healthy and quite fit, mostly from running around a massive garden / housed / DIY project, walking, swimming, yoga, not a gym bunny by any means but healthy. And it just makes me furious that he makes me feel guilty for not conforming to this standard he has, which seems to have changed over the years. Why should I do stuff I don't want to (work out, not eat pies) for an aesthetic ideal I don't share? But he says that not taking his wishes seriously is disrespectful. He also concedes that his view of my / women's bodies is probably not correct in an absolute sense but that he can't help it so it would be kinder of me to try to 'make an effort'. As I know what MN is like I'll just say his idea of porn is chainsaw videos on YouTube. There's nothing untoward going on there. I do love him very much though he has a tendency to criticise me in other areas, though mostly this one. I run a successful publishing business and am intelligent, but have probably quite typical mother derived self esteem issues that I've worked hard to get over and I really feel that giving in on this 'fat' question - I mean agreeing with his view - would be detrimental. Our daughter is 12 and still a total innocent nymph but one day soon she will become body conscious and also start to fill out. She already notices when he picks on me for 'flab' or 'eating too much butter' and I have taken this up with him. I think he now tries harder not to express this kind of thing in front of her. He's a good man, really. But this is so weird and seemingly intractable without me just deciding to become someone else. I could try to become a gym bunny and to diet but I don't bloody want to. So if I did it would only be for him. He thinks this would be loving and self actualising (or something), I think it would be weird and self-destructive to change for this one reason. I haven't spoken to any friends about it except once by angry drunken (me) WhatsApp chat after a particularly harsh episode. Friend, quite naturally, expressed the view that he was being a twat, hence my not talking to others because I want to protect his 'reputation'. But if he genuinely has this perception I guess it's more complex than twattiness. [sits back; awaits MN verdict of A-grade twattiness]

This. You're younger and hotter than him and he's realised you might stick around if you know it. So he's ruining your self esteem. I'm not sure what you are getting out of this relationship but it sounds very abusive to me. That he does it in front of your daughter is unforgivable. I would seriously leave. You can find someone who sees you for the gorgeous women in the prime of her life that you are.

he does genuinely love me

Oh, op… from what I’ve read, it doesn’t sound much like it to me.

I’m sorry, but you don’t routinely make deluberately hurtful comments to, or criticise people you love. You love someone for who they are, not who you want them to be. His desire that you make changes to yourself to suit an image of you he has in his mind is a massive red flag. Can’t you see that?

It would be different if you needed/wanted to lose weight etc. and he was encouraging you, but even if that were the case, you wouldn’t tell someone you love that they’re fat! You’re normalising something which isn’t normal in a loving relationship. Don’t try and make excuses for him. If it wasn’t this, it would be something else.

I think you should tell him that you would find a six pack extremely attractive. And frankly he’s letting you and him down by not having one. Once he has achieved this, for both of your sakes you will consider discussing your physical appearance- but not until then.

The only fat is in his head instead of a brain.

Unless he's an Adonis, which I highly doubt then he should keep his FAT mouth shut.

I wouldn't want to get old with him, what has he actually got going for him other than a limp dick and a nasty tongue?

Which tells us that he doesn't care that it's hurtful and does it deliberately.
I'm sorry, I know you are looking for some escape clause here where we tell you this is all a big misunderstanding on your husbands part, but it is very plain that he is deliberately undermining your confidence to keep you in line. Whatever his reasons (insecurity etc.) don't matter, the result is the same.

You might say that it's something you can live with - maybe you can - but it's not healthy, and furthermore if he starts to see it doesn't have an affect on you he may up the ante. This is not someone who wants the best for you.

Would you ever say this hurtful stuff to him? If not, why not? Because you love him and want to be kind and respectful to him. He is not giving you the same courtesy.

This is one of those threads where the OP posts about one seemingly minor thing but it's really about something else. Your husband is a manipulative asshole who has probably kept you downtrodden for years. You talk of your parents dysfunctional relationship, maybe trying to escape from that is what led you to marry a man so much older than you at 23.

You say that you love him, fair enough if you don't want to leave him, but you need to accept you cannot change him. You can work on yourself (NOT in losing weight) but in building up other things in your life that don't require his approval. Do you have friends, hobbies?

Although I have to ask (you don't have to answer, but maybe think on it for yourself) is this really the guy you would rely on to take care of you if you got sick or developed a life limiting illness? He is already critical of something so silly as gaining a few pounds...

Wot @SleepingStandingUp said

*I'm not screaming ltb, but I wouldn't be dealing with this by pandering to his delicate sensitivities
He's willing to sacrifice your health and wellbeing on the idea that YOU'RE the problem.

Next time he wants sex, I'd be saying "look, I don't feel comfortable. You have to medicate yourself to be able to push yourself into having sex with me because you're not attracted to me. Imagine if I had to get drunk every time we had sex to make you attractive enough to get aroused? Neither of us want a sexless marriage, I refuse to lose weight and be underweight just so you'll be attracted to me so perhaps we need to consider an open marriage. For us both.

At least you'll know where you stand. He'll either buck up his ideas or be willing to screw over your marriage for imaginary sex with a nubile woman on her 20s*

@Donostiera

I think wot SleepingStandingUp has posted is genius. Take your time to really read and as they say 'inwardly digest' it.

As the wife of someone much older than myself, I have experience of the pragmatic here. More importantly, I recognise the drive in you to fix the situation and in doing so, be gentle with his sensitivities.

Ask yourself, why doesn't he return the favour. Whatever the reason, he needs a wake up call. If you don't want it to be divorce, then the approach ahead has a lot to recommend it.

Another question for you to consider, is why you are so focused on PIV ? There is a whole world out there for you to discover separately and together. Enjoy. It might take some of the pressure off the situation for you both and help you re establish the bonds which have been broken.

This is correct. People often don’t understand that DARVO happens in all kinds of situations and that the D also stands for denial of a feeling that the abuser can’t accept (such as shame or inadequacy or loss) which leads them to the attack.

Look up cycle of abuse, OP, not because the situation is one of violent abuse but because it tracks emotional abuse: normal times—> tension builds > you go on alert and start changing your behavior > blow up (fat shaming and controlling behaviors come out into the open) > make up/honeymoon period (or pretend forgetting) then brief return to normalcy but with heightened vigilance on your side.

Ugh!!; what a nasty man. You poor thing.
I'm sure you are totally beautiful and many other men would tell you so.
This is about his ED.
He needs to know this name calling stops or you're gone.
Absolutely awful way to treat a DW.

guess that he 'tries' and that's why it goes away for a while. Then being pissed off about something else will make him start up again, which makes me aware he hasn't changed his perception, just tried to suppress it (which is a good thing), but ultimately can't (because it's so deep-seated / he stops trying which are both bad things)

That is a very kind explanation. Does he really deserve that kindness?

An alternative explanation is that he recognises that he has pushed you too far and is reigning it back for a while. Then he thinks he can have another go.

A much less "kind" explanation but please don't dismiss it. Take you time to try it on for size and see how it chimes with you.

Some of us recognise this stuff. Agree with others who have posted about DARVO. Take care of you and your DC.

@Donostiera I'f be genuinely tempted to tell him that if he really finds you so unattractive then there is plenty of people who do - younger and without ED

it may also be that he is gearing up to leave you and will frame it as "your fault"

This 60 year old pot bellied blokes dick doesn't work .....and it's the fault of his much younger and in shape wife.

Ffs. No he's not a good man. He's an abusive twat. Your poor daughter having that as a father.

I'm stunned.
So he can play nicely in his treatment if you, but ultimately your value to him is pinned on a body shape that he defines with a VERY narrow acceptable definition.
He is SO shallow.
Deep love for his wife (ha), both of you aging, a daughter to consider ... none of if these are enough to dissuade him from his entitled demand of expecting you to change, nasty.
You aren't the reason his willy doesn't work well... but his ego can't face the truth so he's taking it out on you. Charming.

He persists that his inability to see me as attractive is real (that's fair enough) and that it is linked to fatness and thus. hold it in my power to remedy it (that's not).

But you have a BMI of around 22, most of your clothes are a size 10, and you're slightly lighter than when you got into the relationship.

So, he is lying or delusional.

And he doesn't care that his lies are cruel.

And he doesn't care that they might result in you becoming underweight.

He is a pathetic creature who is either lying to himself and you because of some combo of;

He has ED.
He likes em young.
He isn't attracted any more in general - which can happen in ltrs.
He wants you on the back foot, feeling insecure, feeling like you're lucky he stays - rather than thinking "he's lucky I stay".

He honestly reminds me of the old creepy grumpy chauvanist grandad age men Ive encountered in more than one culture; always calling their wives fat, "big mama", "stupid" etc. and putting them down. Because they have fragile little ego's and don't feel good unless they're putting her down, it's a power/dominance play, or they are just abusive or whatever.

Btw "big mama" wasn't unusually big for a middle aged lady and my Granny is a lot smarter than my late Grandad.

Also these dudes are not exactly Paul Newman themselves. They never get any abuse back though, so they're very happy to give it out.

I’d ask him to do counselling.

or I’d ask him to take 2 hours of your duties on each day or earn the equivalent of 2 hours of your salary and if he agrees to that tell him you’ll join a gym… then I’d go and sit in a jacuzzi or sauna for an hour a day.

Youaren't the reason his willy doesn't work well... but his ego can't face the truth so he's taking it out on you. Charming.

In a nutshell.

It can't be his dick/him so you must be fat, except you're not fat,by any definition of the word.

This is just so awful to read. You don't need "nubile flesh" or to be skinny to turn a man on. That's why MILF porn is the most popular category. If your husband can only find young, unusually slim women attractive then he sounds a bit iffy.

I never say LTB buy honestly he's a really unpleasant man with sexual problems and this sounds abusive.

I'm 46. Size 14 to 18 depending on my yo yo dieting cycle. Husband can't keep his hands off me. Men, generally, not to be crude- see some tits and don't generally critique much else.

This sounds like he's got serious problems

Bless you, if I was a size 10 I'd be wearing a bloody bikini to Tesco

Dread to think what he'd come out with if you'd actually had any real changes to your looks or body that you had no choice over.

I guess that he 'tries' and that's why it goes away for a while. Then being pissed off about something else will make him start up again, which makes me aware he hasn't changed his perception, just tried to suppress it (which is a good thing), but ultimately can't (because it's so deep-seated / he stops trying which are both bad things)

OP I am so sorry your husband is unkind enough to say this shit to you even once, let alone on a regular basis. It's NOT your fault and (kind though it was to run us through your weight etc) it's NOT about you. He obviously can see that you're still slim and no doubt gorgeous, a fit and healthy 43 year old often doesn't look that different to a fit and healthy 30 year old. So please just put that out of your mind. He is not "dysmorphic" about you and his belief in you being fat CANNOT be sincere. So please put that out of your mind and stop trying to "logic" him out of it.

So there must be another reason why he says it. The bit I've quoted above (especially "being pissed off about something else will make him start up again") suggests to me that he's doing it because he is angry with you, wants to put the boot in and knows that's the most speedy and effective way of crushing you and making you question yourself. I.e. "winning the argument". Or perhaps "regaining the upper hand" or maybe "putting you in your place" so that you don't feel TOO confident. Imagine if you took your big brain and nice personality and lovely figure and kindness and combined that with confidence??? he's probably thinking. He's no doubt shitting himself that in that event you'd look around and notice it's a big world and you can do "better" (I know you don't see it like that but I bet he does).

The point I'm making is that saying that you are fat etc is a complete choice on his part. He's deploying it as a tool. He's doing it in order to be cruel.

The "magic bullet" I'd suggest is saying to him, and meaning it: "Look darling I've told you before I don't appreciate you commenting on my weight. I'm healthy and slim and won't be making any changes to fit what you say you'd prefer. The next time you say I'm fat or unattractive I will be ending this marriage as there is no such thing as a marriage without respect.

He’s projecting because he hates his own aging body. What he’s doing is actually cruel and abusive. Personally I couldn’t be attracted to such a man.

Exactly.

Oh just tell him - "I do not intend to listen to any more of your fat rantings. They are total nonsense and unhelpful. If you do not want me as I am then you will have to look elsewhere, but I have no intention of being on the receiving end of any more of this stuff. And if you dare to make any vague hint about this in front of the children it will not be you looking elsewhere, it will be me. Either you have me as I am or not at all."

The things we women put up with! Stop making excuses for him. He has no right to choose how you look - only you have that right.

I guess that he 'tries' and that's why it goes away for a while. Then being pissed off about something else will make him start up again

Oh OP, look up cycle of abuse. It's a classic tactic. He is emotionally and mentally abusing you. And it won't stop, no matter what you do, because it's him, not you. You cannot fix him or his problem, you can only protect you and your DD from him.

Abused women say the emotional and mental abuse is far, far worse than the physical. It seeps into the very fibre of your being, it changes your thoughts, views, behaviour and self esteem. It's a mindfuck. If nothing else please start reading up about it so you can start putting effective boundaries and blocks in place.

then being kinder about my appearance would surely be diplomatic

Indeed, but he has no qualms about lying about your appearance every time something annoys him.

I feel for you @Donostiera , so much of this thread reminds me of when I first discovered MN and was becoming aware that my then husband's behaviour wasn't okay. I was too scared to post because I knew if it was bad enough that I had to ask the question I knew I wasn't going to like the answers. It's interesting to see other people's perspectives when the emotions are taken out of the situation.

I agree with PPs that the being okay for a while then bringing up whatever grievance at regular intervals is all part of the cycle of abuse. A woman's weight is very often a tactic used by an abuser to put doubt in his victim's mind. Don't doubt yourself @Donostiera , don't go changing (unless it's to shed a shitload of weight 😉) and don't forget we're here if you need us

Horrible man.

Don’t let your daughter grow up to think this is acceptable behaviour in a partner.

What an arsehole. He's the issue. Not you. He would find me absolutely revolting the bastard.