Page 9 | GP's who are teachers not being remorseful for corporal punishment

maratara · 2023-08-29T00:37:17+00:00

I have recently found out that my MIL and FIL who were both primary school teachers ( so up to 12yo max) have both caned children who were badly behaved when they were teaching in the 70's and 80's. It has blown my mind. I burst into tears - I have left all my 4 children with them alone at various times . I had no idea. They think it was just the times, and I am overreacting and I don't understand how things were. This is not that long ago though really! And nobody had a gun to their head to hit a child. I think they were bullies who used a power imbalance to hit a child with a stick. Needless to say our relationship has taken a bad turn. I really liked them until now - been with their son for close to 20 years but only found out about this 2 days ago. What would you do? My youngest is 11 so it's easy to say he just doesn't want to stay at Grandma's anymore in the holidays for a night. Other children are adults so would never stay the night - just come to family gatherings and things. What do other people think?

AlienatedChildGrown · 30/08/2023 11:38

Your capacity for emotional restraint is important for your children’s long term well-being.

Late FIL fought in WWII on the Italian side. I grew up in Britain as the child of two parents born close to the end of the war. As you can immagine there were so very many conflicts between his world view and mine.

He was a good father and grandfather. As imperfect as any other human. But he had his own personal mix of good qualities. I cannot pretend that had I been born in his time & place my world view would somehow be exactly the one I have now because “I’m a better person”. Had he been born in another time and place I doubt his outlook and beliefs would have remain as they were.

These are your children’s grandparents, your spouse’s parents. If you allow your emotions to be a mountain of conflict, or tense atmosphere in their family life you are choosing to sacrifice family harmony for your own emotional sake.

If you instead reduce it to molehill size, accept that sometimes gritting your teeth and refusing to react is the best foot forward, you can allow the family harmony dial to turn up again.

You can’t help how you feel. But you can help what you do. Part of the doing is working on getting feelings into proportion. Easy to say, hard to do. But with practice (this will probably include mucho one step forwards, two steps back from time to time) it get easier.

It is for your own personal benefit too. Life is harder when any minute an unknown fact about another person can ruin your headspace. That’s like living in an emotional minefield, never knowing if you can trust the seemingly relaxed and calm landscape to turn on you suddenly.

IvorTheEngineDriver · 30/08/2023 11:51

It was normal and acceptable at the time and to be frank your reaction (or TBH over-reaction) strikes me as verging on hysterical.

Iusedtoliveinsanfrancisco · 30/08/2023 13:40

Things change.
but what was weird in my 2000 boy secondary school women were not allowed to cane only the male staff.

Quisquam · 30/08/2023 16:50

In my secondary school, the head never did the caning, after supposedly breaking a bone in a boy’s hand. The deputy head always did it!

Original poster

maratara · 31/08/2023 01:15

AlienatedChildGrown · 30/08/2023 11:38

Your capacity for emotional restraint is important for your children’s long term well-being.

Late FIL fought in WWII on the Italian side. I grew up in Britain as the child of two parents born close to the end of the war. As you can immagine there were so very many conflicts between his world view and mine.

He was a good father and grandfather. As imperfect as any other human. But he had his own personal mix of good qualities. I cannot pretend that had I been born in his time & place my world view would somehow be exactly the one I have now because “I’m a better person”. Had he been born in another time and place I doubt his outlook and beliefs would have remain as they were.

These are your children’s grandparents, your spouse’s parents. If you allow your emotions to be a mountain of conflict, or tense atmosphere in their family life you are choosing to sacrifice family harmony for your own emotional sake.

If you instead reduce it to molehill size, accept that sometimes gritting your teeth and refusing to react is the best foot forward, you can allow the family harmony dial to turn up again.

You can’t help how you feel. But you can help what you do. Part of the doing is working on getting feelings into proportion. Easy to say, hard to do. But with practice (this will probably include mucho one step forwards, two steps back from time to time) it get easier.

It is for your own personal benefit too. Life is harder when any minute an unknown fact about another person can ruin your headspace. That’s like living in an emotional minefield, never knowing if you can trust the seemingly relaxed and calm landscape to turn on you suddenly.

This is very true. I do have a form of PTSD but I do not think that is relevant in this situation besides the fact that I cried - which I have said several times I am embarrassed about and did not want to do. It just happens. Before I get accused of drip feeding - I think my reaction ( I agree completely OTT) does not negate their almost proudness in having hit children in their care.

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LivStanshall · 31/08/2023 01:29

Pallisers · 29/08/2023 03:16

I am fascinated by the responses to the OP.

She has been called hysterical, dramatic, acting like her children are at risk.

The reality is she is upset that her parents in law caned children - as in lifted a cane and brought it down on the back or backside of a child under 12.

But you are all fine with that because - times were different.

Really? I don't think so.

My parents were born in 1926 and 1927 and would have sooner brought a cane down on their own back then do it to a child.

My grandparents were the same.

So you have two people who caned children (think about that - caning a child) and are not remorseful about it at all.

I would certainly think less of them and judge them for that. But you are all just dandy about it because "different times". But in those different times there were plenty of people who wouldn't have dreamed of caning a child.

Quite a disgusting thread to be honest.

OP, I can understand your reaction. Your in laws aren't a physical danger to your children so I wouldn't worry about that. I certainly wouldn't want them to pass on any values to them though. They don't have any worth having.

I agree. I was at school in the 60s and 70s and corporal punishment wasn’t common. It happened and it was mostly given by bullies to try and humiliate children but it hardly happened in my schools. I would also think lesser of someone who practiced it and didn’t show any remorse later on in their life.

Winchester100 · 31/08/2023 01:40

I was at primary on the 1970s and this was normal.

I think you’re over reacting

Livinginanotherworld · 31/08/2023 01:51

Growing up in the sixties/seventies it was totally normal, getting the cane was much quicker than getting stuck in detention doing a 1000 lines. Primary school it was the slipper, high school the cane. But at both schools certain teachers would throw a wooden blackboard rubber at you if you were talking or being naughty. ( I think that went very wrong once when it hit a boy on the head and knocked him out, teacher was spoken too, but went on to become headmaster ) Definitely of it’s time, my peers and I would say it never did us any harm. If our parents found out, we’d get another smack at home too. Getting caught smoking would be the worst crime you could commit, that would probably be 6 strokes of the cane on the hand, boys by the headmaster, girls by the headmistress. All sounds quite shocking now, but not at the time.

Original poster

maratara · 31/08/2023 02:16

AuntieMarys · 29/08/2023 06:07

My dad caned secondary school boys in the 50s and 60s. Or gave them a thump which was quicker.
Same boys every day.

Well obviously it wasn't working. Was it? Otherwise it would not be the same boys everyday. This is what I mean , the sort of absolute glee and total assurance that it was good times. Makes me want to vomit personally.

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Original poster

maratara · 31/08/2023 02:24

Oh and full disclosure. I did say ( in my out loud voice) - awkward - that if some adult grabbed a stick and hit one of my children; I would punch them in the face. Just so they got the idea that hitting children is horrendous. I would possibly be at a vague level of equality ( though I'm not very strong and a woman but I'd have a crack) It's not like a child being hit by an adult who has total authority over them . They did look a bit askance. Leaving this thread now as obviously people aren't going to agree.

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Opentooffers · 31/08/2023 02:31

I think the threat to belt a child if they don't go to sleep is worse tbh as that was said present day. The biscuit incident is also recent, so yea, I can see why you'd be reticent about overnights.
Yes, I'd let what happened in the 70's/80's slide but they have also lived a few decades since and yet are still using physical punishment as a verbal threat - so maybe not adapted and adopted present day thinking as well as you'd hope.
I think you to some degree have to draw a line under it, which you are trying to. Perhaps avoid dwelling on the past but it's understandable to have present concerns. However any risk is small now that your son is older so try not to dwell on it.

Original poster

maratara · 31/08/2023 03:08

Pallisers · 29/08/2023 03:16

I am fascinated by the responses to the OP.

She has been called hysterical, dramatic, acting like her children are at risk.

The reality is she is upset that her parents in law caned children - as in lifted a cane and brought it down on the back or backside of a child under 12.

But you are all fine with that because - times were different.

Really? I don't think so.

My parents were born in 1926 and 1927 and would have sooner brought a cane down on their own back then do it to a child.

My grandparents were the same.

So you have two people who caned children (think about that - caning a child) and are not remorseful about it at all.

I would certainly think less of them and judge them for that. But you are all just dandy about it because "different times". But in those different times there were plenty of people who wouldn't have dreamed of caning a child.

Quite a disgusting thread to be honest.

OP, I can understand your reaction. Your in laws aren't a physical danger to your children so I wouldn't worry about that. I certainly wouldn't want them to pass on any values to them though. They don't have any worth having.

Thank you @Pallisers

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Original poster

maratara · 31/08/2023 03:28

Meadowfly · 29/08/2023 06:42

I find people who believe they are morally superior to others very tedious.

I find people who don't properly respond to the thread tedious. I said I was shocked . And yes, finding people repulsive who are proud of hitting little children does make me morally superior . @Meadowfly

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Original poster

maratara · 31/08/2023 03:51

Lilithlogic · 29/08/2023 07:57

I went to a convent and had numerous canings by nuns. One of which called me a heinous bitch because I refused to cry, I was 7 (I know this because it was around the time I made my 1st Holy Communion). This was one of the things that has plagued my life unfortunately.

Edited

I'm so sorry

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Original poster

maratara · 31/08/2023 03:54

Opentooffers · 31/08/2023 02:31

I think the threat to belt a child if they don't go to sleep is worse tbh as that was said present day. The biscuit incident is also recent, so yea, I can see why you'd be reticent about overnights.
Yes, I'd let what happened in the 70's/80's slide but they have also lived a few decades since and yet are still using physical punishment as a verbal threat - so maybe not adapted and adopted present day thinking as well as you'd hope.
I think you to some degree have to draw a line under it, which you are trying to. Perhaps avoid dwelling on the past but it's understandable to have present concerns. However any risk is small now that your son is older so try not to dwell on it.

Thanks that is what I am doing.
I am a bit sad about how many posters are all in favour of it because it was just the thing done in the day. I am not that old. This is not that long ago. These are your grandparents who purposely got an implement and thumped a child. Just something to think about. Bowing out now seriously.

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mathanxiety · 31/08/2023 03:58

I had an aunt who was born in 1926, in Germany. She was a member of the League of German Girls (BDM). Her brothers were in the Hitler Youth and the Wehrmacht. She and her friends knitted socks and supported the soldiers for years, attended rallies, learned first aid. She left Germany right after the war as a chaperone to a group of German orphans who were being resettled by the Red Cross. She was a lovely woman - witty, smart, warm.

You honestly don't know what sort of a person you would have been if you were brought up in a different place or a different time. It's nice to think you would have been on the side of the angels, but you really have no idea. There but for the grace of God...

Original poster

maratara · 31/08/2023 04:33

True.
Night

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saraclara · 31/08/2023 08:06

You honestly don't know what sort of a person you would have been if you were brought up in a different place or a different time. It's nice to think you would have been on the side of the angels, but you really have no idea

Absolutely that. And it's highly unlikely that we'd have been the exceptional ones who went against the norms of the day/the culture. It really is.

harerunner · 31/08/2023 13:25

I'm not in favour of corporal punishment, and am glad it's no longer seen as acceptable.

However, i think that people's reaction to it is completely overblown, especially when people fail to make any distinction between an occasionally administered light tap and full scale battery of a child.

I was on the receiving end of a few "light taps" (very few as my parents were against smacking but they weren't perfect!) and it was a total non issue. I've also very occasionally smacked my children (again lightly- I shouldn't have done it, but I'm not perfect either). Interesting (and contrary to me) my children (13 and 16) are actually in favour of corporal punishment when kids have been very bad! They barely remember the smacks.

harerunner · 31/08/2023 13:26

saraclara · 31/08/2023 08:06

You honestly don't know what sort of a person you would have been if you were brought up in a different place or a different time. It's nice to think you would have been on the side of the angels, but you really have no idea

Absolutely that. And it's highly unlikely that we'd have been the exceptional ones who went against the norms of the day/the culture. It really is.

Of course they weren't exceptions. Kids were often smacked at my state primary school in the early 80s. I recall at least 5 teachers doing it.

AllOfThemWitches · 31/08/2023 13:36

How do some of you feel about adult men sleeping with underage girls because that was also the done thing 'back in the day?'

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 31/08/2023 13:39

I am a bit sad about how many posters are all in favour of it because it was just the thing done in the day

We're not in favour of it, how ridiculous and a twisting of what people have said. We're pointing out that this happened in the past, now it doesn't, thank goodness. And as you'd happily resort to physically violence yourself, I can't see that you have the moral high ground here you're so desperate to claim.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 31/08/2023 13:42

AllOfThemWitches · 31/08/2023 13:36

How do some of you feel about adult men sleeping with underage girls because that was also the done thing 'back in the day?'

If we're going to be pedantic, 'underage' wasn't a legal concept until the late 19c so the question didn't arise. And I abhor the current trend for projecting 21c issues and concepts onto the past. Not to mention whataboutery.

AllOfThemWitches · 31/08/2023 13:52

If we're going to be pedantic, 'underage' wasn't a legal concept until the late 19c so the question didn't arise. And I abhor the current trend for projecting 21c issues and concepts onto the past. Not to mention whataboutery.

Male celebrities were routinely sleeping with 13yo girls in the 70s by all accounts and you're telling me this wouldn't change your view of someone? Also And I abhor the current trend for projecting 21c issues and concepts onto the past. Why would I care what you 'abhor?'

nokidshere · 31/08/2023 14:34

I am a bit sad about how many posters are all in favour of it because it was just the thing done in the day. I am not that old.

Don't be ridiculous. No-one is in favour of it but we can't go back and change the past. We just need to be very thankful that it doesn't happen now.

And since you feel it's ok to hit a child for "running into the road" or some other arbitrary misdemeanour you really don't have a leg to stand on.