"But we took you to stately homes" part 3

[oneplusone]

Sorry for starting part 3 if it has already been started but i logged on just now and found the previous thread has reached 1000 posts. And my title is not very inspiring, Ally90, please help!

No

The only thing keeping me here is the love I have for my kids and the fact I want grnd children.

My kids deserve so much better.

oh, you sound really sad. i dont know what to say.
Im sure you are wonderful to your kids.

Do you have a link to a bit of your story, or want to tell me a bit so i can try to understand/ help???

almost normal - I find the nice stuff throws me more than the nasty. The nasty I expect, I know what to do , it proves me right.

The nice is always unexpected. I've usually geared up for a fight, have all the adrenaline running and then it has nowhere to go.

Also - It makes me confused, why are they being nice, am I just over exaggerating what are normal caring parents. What have I done to deserve it? Did I do the right thing this time?

It makes me doubt myself - my experiences, my thoughts, my feelings. Are they wrong? Is it me who is wrong?

It makes me feel angry - why can't she be like that all the time?

It makes me feel sad - I can see what I am missing, I can see glimpses of what others have.

It makes me suspicious - what does she want from me? Is this just a ploy? Is she manipulating me in some way?

And part of me is almost (not quite) satisfied and happy - this is the mother I have always wanted, but I can't relax enough to accept this for what it appears to be. I am waiting for her to turn around and reveal her true face.

Nice is always worse than nasty in a way - it throws everything up in the air.

Smithfield - thank you for that link. It is very interesting and I am working thru it (along with other stuff) at mo. Trying to align things with my thoughts and see if they fit.

AN- she is being nice but it is all on her terms. You can not keep stuffing your feelings down to keep her happy. Its not fair on you and its not fair on your children.
If you dont want to see her or speak to her currently, you shouldnt have to.
You could perhaps write another letter expressing how you felt let down that she did not acknowledge any of your hurt or torment you experienced as a child whilst in their care. That if they can not acknowledge or validate your feelings you feel you must withdraw from them for a period of time (say 6 months).

You can do it if that is what you want to do.
You are not a bitch or anything of the kind. You are a person who is being made to feel that your thoughts and feelings and needs are secondary to somebody elses. That should never be. ((((((AN))))))

AN _ just re-read that and its confusing. What I meant was a letter saying how you felt everything expressed in it was ignored and brushed aside just like it was at the time it happened. That its like experiencing the hurt all over again and you feel you must take time out from the relationship as a result.
If you do write this you must not 'expect' a response from her. If you do you would likely only feel let down again.

Itati- Children say things all the time that they dont mean, its just if that is how we are feeling on the inside then it can hit a nerve and make us feel terrible as if the child has found us out somehow.
I want you to give your dc a hug and say please dont call mummy that its not nice and not true
You kids deserved better than you got Itati and they are recieving SO VERY MUCH BETTER from you.
Write down your feelings on here and see if that helps.

Shoptiludrop- Sorry about the link, try googling 'drama triangle' and have a read.

It is nothing YOU have done, you have to let go of the idea that you have any control over the situation.
Your stepmother without a doubt is a very damaged woman. Nothing you could have done would have changed her response to you and your sister. IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT!

The bulk of the responsibility lies with your father for this situation IMO.

He was entrusted with your care and enotionally and physically neglected you and your sister for two years. He then left you with nowhere to go.

As AN said he was a classic 'bystander' to your stepmothers abuse. A bystander is as bad as the abuser themselves as they do nothing to stop it. It was ALWAYS in HIS power to stop it but he chose not to. He was the adult, you were the child.

He continues to emotionally neglect you now. You can not rescue him Shotiludrop. He does not want or need rescuing. To keep trying to do so will just keep you feeling frustrated and powerless.

It is very very sad and it is a real loss when we realise we dont and never did have the love of our parents. That they put themselves before us. But we have to accept that is how it is that they are unlikely to change and suddenly start accepting responsibilty now when they never have in the past. Otherwise you will remain in this holding pattern of pain indefinately.

Armadillo- I was in constant confusion about my mother too. In your situation I think its quite normal because your mother preys on your self doubt and lack of confidence.
The only way to grow your self confidence would be to break away from her.
You need to validate yourself through equal relationships with others not ones based on a power play as you are used to with your mum.

smithfield, you are wonderful, you seem to know exacally the situation i am in, and seem to understand so much. Thank you.

The thing is he acknowlegdes to me that he has been a terrible dad, and that he knows its mostly his fault and that he wants to put it right. But then a week later the situation is worse, and then i get the blame for putting pressure on him. This problem has been simmering for a long long time, but has never been as bad as its been for the last 2 years. I truely belive its becuase im back in my home town, literally 1/2 mile away that its got worse, and because i will no longer appolgise for things that i have not done, or just to keep the peace that this is why its like it is. I know i need to let go, but i just feel an intense need to know what i have ever done, and why i deserve to be treated this way. Honestly ive been blanked in the street, acussed of saying and doing things i havent done. Even my my stepmother and auntie were talking about me behind my back, ive been acussed of influencing the aunties ideas and lying to her, when i hadnt spoken to her for 6 months and i wasnt even there and when the auntie tells the stepmother this, it doesnt matter and im still a liar. I just dont understand.
I dont understand how my dad can say to me how terrible it is, how pathetic his wife is, but then let it continue. Hes just phoned me and has told me he will back off for a few weeks and when i get back off holiday i will see that things have changed. I do not know why be bothers telling me this. i have heard this weekly for almost 2 years. I have not got any energy left to give and he does not seem to understand that.
I feel angry, violent, upset and frustrated. Im meant to leave for work in an hour and dont know if i can go in. I didnt yesterday. Someone please tel me what to do.

ShopDrop, Is there any way you can ask your family what it is they think you have done? Could you write them a letter (sorry I'm always telling people they should write letters) Maybe you could say Everyone seems to be unhappy at the moment and I'm getting the feeling that some of you think I have done something wrong. I am a bit confused, so please would you write and tell me what I have done to upset you and what you would like me to do differently. If I don't know what I have done I can not put it right. What I want is to be allowed to be as much a part of my father's life as his other daughters. At the moment I feel rejected and sad. Do you have any ideas how this situation could be improved.

I'm probably talking out of my arse but could putting it really simply like this and asking them to write back to you (rather than getting into a verbal argument where people change the subject and won't let you speak), work maybe? At least you would have made it clear how you feel and what you want and if they do nothing to help you they can't say it is because they didn't understand your problem.

I can see you don't want to give up on them yet and say "fuck you, you aren't going to change and be the family I want so I give up" (which is the stage I feel I am at with mine). It feels easier I think to be at this stage I'm at than in your situation. But if you think there is a chance that things could get better then you should do what you can.

Itati, keep posting, I'm worried about you. Ignore people who posted harshly on your other thread, they don't know your full situation. It is easy to judge when they are not in the other person's position.

Thank you ShopDrop, Armadillo and Smithfield for what you said about my phone conversation with my mum.

Armadillo, what you said about how niceness makes you doubt yourself - yes - this is what seems to mess with my mind. I think the things that happened were bad, not normal, and I shouldn't 'put up with' those things, yet my parents act like everything is so normal and nothing out of the ordinary has happened. Then I wonder if I am going mad. I know I've said this before.

I'm angry because I feel like they are trying to manipulate my mind as well as my brother did/brainwash me. I feel like saying to them "It's not me who isn't right in the head, it's you" Lots of people have told me I'm not being stupid now but I still struggle with it. I think we are so influenced by what parents think because we believe them when we are children and then it gets set in our brains as they develop.

Smithfield, my insides agree with you about writing again and saying You still seem like you have ignored what happened to me after my last letter, just like you did when I was a child, and it hurts all over again, and contact with you reminds me of how much you hurt me, so I need some time away from you with no contact. I might feel better after 6 months. I might not.

Something is stopping me doing this though. Probably the thought of making DH angry. He is expecting everything to be sorted after my last letter. He can't cope with me talking to him about it anymore. He wants the children to still see my parents. He doesn't want any embarrassing awkwardness with them. I compromised by coming up with the limited contact plan, but I'm not sure if I can do this compromise. Maybe I have to try a bit longer.

So I'm repressing my feelings again. I overdid it in the gym again today. Therapist said I use the gym to punish myself. I told him I wouldn't overdo it any more. I feel things I can't express onto anyone so I take it out on myself. I need to go in the cellar again with my cricket bat and football. I'll only do it when I'm alone in the house though.

Thanks AN

How are you today?

I have been cleaning for hours and just having some cereal before I have to carry on with the reading through old diaries and letters. It is taking so much time and I am not even sure whether it will help.

I feel fit to drop tbh.

Can I join in?? I "went to stately homes" too - I have just sent my parents an email detailing exactly why I have not contacted them since 2006, when I told my mother to "get stuffed" and slammed the phone down on her, for her being a bitch basically (as usual!).
In a nutshell, she was an appalling mother, he was a bad father, crap grandparents for reasons that would take all night to write about!! Bit my lip when I had kids "for their sake" - but had enough of their toxic behaviour and didn''t bother with them. They never contacted me or the kids in all that time either, but recently sent me an email saying they "don't know what they've done to me, do I ever intend to contact them again?".
So, after 30 odd years of being manipulated, I've "let them have it" so to speak - but I still feel "guilty" in case my kids never see them again and it's all my fault for "not keeping the peace".
Have read most of the posts on here, but could do with some support myself now please!!

Hi Charlene

I don't honestly think you have anything to feel guilty about - toxic people never really change and certainly never take responsibility. However, that can take a long time to sort through in your own mind and perhaps counselling may be something you want to look into. Reading between the lines also it sounds like your Mum was the main instigator and your Dad acted as a bystander (as many men are in such toxic dysfunctional family situations).

Do you have siblings - do they have any relationship with their parents?.

These people would also add nothing to your childrens' lives either so would also not feel too bad that your children don't have a relationship with them.

Their response to you is actually also typical of what toxic people can say in reply. There is no genuine remorse or importantly even an acknowledgement of your feelings.

Would recommend you read "Toxic Parents" written by Susan Forward. Its a good starting point.

HTH

Attila

Charlene

You may also find this interesting:-

Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too.

Sorry I am really struggling with everything at the moment. I know I need to, find a therapist or I will start bottling things up again. As it is I have been reluctant to even write on here.

I have PND confirmed after visiting the GP, and I feel crippled with anxiety at the moment like rising panic at the start of each day. Having trouble forcing myself out of bed. It will get better hopefully, and Im glad I caught things when I did.

Anyway Ive just come on for a bit of support regarding MIL (AGAIN). I am having an AIBU moment. I realise Im not well atm and so things are probably affecting more than ever. and maybe I am seeing things in a skewed way?

As a result of the situation that arose the other saturday MIL sent me a text which said basically she hadnt meant to upset me and that she had just 'meant' that she was wanting 'me' to call her and that hopefully we can put this 'episode' behind us and move forward.

My normal reaction when people apologise to me is to be relieved, because tbh it never happens, any conflict in my family and I am the scapegoat and must apologise or be yelled at, or not spoken to for periods of time away

I normally let people off the hook by saying it was all me.....I overeacted course, I was tired, or I was this or that......relieved to no longer be percieved as a persecutor perhaps?? But as a result my feelings never get aired.

So for once I just didnt respond instantaneously, I left it and when I did reply after considering why it had upset me so much I wrote that Yes we could move forward but I wanted to clarify my feelings, That there was 'nothing behind' me not calling her, and I was upset at the time because the day was supposed to be about me sharing one of ds' firsts (first ever trip to the pics) and it was spoilt a bit as the focus was that instead.

Ive not heard back. So Now I am back in my old role feeling I shouldnt have sent it at all (and yes I should have 'said' it not written it, but Im not that brave yet and it took enough to say how I felt rather than cop out and take the blame.)

Why do I always want to swallow others bad feelings and let them off the hook?
Surely Im entitled to express how I feel the same as she thought she should??

Attila, your last post was INCREDIBLY useful for me as well and has prompted me to write my parents another letter which would really help me if I sent it but I am not at all sure whether I have the courage to send it. I hope you can all be patient with me because I know I fill up this thread too much, but I would like to copy my draft letter into my next post and I would really appreciate anyone's comments on it and whether I should send it. The thought terrifies me.

Smithfield, I want to respond to your post but will be in trouble if I don't get some basic 'chores' done before I collect DCs and DH comes home . I will be back this evening though. For now ((((quick hug))))

I have come very late to this but I think it might be a place for me. I have just searched for the original stately homes thread and I am starting to believe that I have toxic parents who have emotionally abused me all my life. I'm 28 now and have two children. I have just come out of a failed marriage, have mental health problems and have been assessed as having borderline personality disorder as a result of my childhood causing me to develop a skewed reality.

My psychiatrist thinks that many of my problems stem from being an only child and not having anyone to bounce my problems off when I was going through sh*t.

My father has never had any time for me whatsoever and has rejected me all my life. My mother plays a push-pull game all the time where she is sweetness and light one day, and bullies me the next. She is very defensive about my upbringing. I have tried to air my issues with her but she always says "Well all the good things I did for you outweigh the bad" - she doesn't understand how damaging it is for me to have a parent who blows hot and cold with me all the time.

Ok I was never beaten black and blue but the emotional effects have had an impact I'm sure. I feel like a non-person who now makes terrible decisions about a lot of things, especially relationships with other people...

I could go on and on.......perhaps I need counselling?

AN

I think your letter is very well written, cathartic for you and heartfelt.

You have written about what they may well be thinking (and you're likely not far wrong here) but there is no mention of your response to their perceived thinking. I would add your own response (the previous post courtesy of Toxic Parents also gave responses to the argument put forward by the parents. One such response being, "Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

My counsel as well is to not send this letter. They could well use this as ammo to beat you further emotionally with or alternatively not respond again.

With best wishes

Attila x

Hi Smithfield

((((((((((((Smithfield)))))))))))))

I think you've been very brave in going to the GPs re PND. Not every woman with PND does go to the doctors so am very pleased that you did. It can be treated successfully and am 100% sure that you will one day find yourself coming out of that dark valley. I often felt like I was not waving but drowning in the early days.

I think you need to be kind to yourself. You sent a text to her and in your position I would have done the very same. Just let it be now, concentrate on your own self instead.

Re your comment:-
"Surely Im entitled to express how I feel the same as she thought she should??"

Of course, this goes without saying; think you feeling not able to goes back to your own childhood and how you were mistreated by the very people, your parents, who failed you utterly and completely.

With best wishes

Attila x

(P.S I won't be around from tomorrow for the next two weeks as we are off on our hols to the US).

I was just wondering about having a conversation with my mother.

itati/nab

Has anyone read that book Toxic Parents? And is it any good?