"But we took you to stately homes" part 3

[oneplusone]

Sorry for starting part 3 if it has already been started but i logged on just now and found the previous thread has reached 1000 posts. And my title is not very inspiring, Ally90, please help!

something else just occurred to me....do you kiss your parents when you see them - I really struggle with this, it makes me cringe and I will try and avoid it at all costs.....

Duffy, I stopped those "love me, love me" feelings by realising that my parents couldn't do it, would never change, and if I kept hoping for them to change I would be disappointed and hurt over and over again, so I try to get what I need elsewhere and just don't care what they think or feel about me anymore.

Thanks Ally and ActingNormal...
Our next visit will be to their place Thanksgiving or Christmas. Dh prefers Thanksgiving so as not to ruin his Christmas dh (he might point to weather conditions more predictible in November- for driving through the mountains-I point to the fact of 'just get it over with' sooner better than later).
I'm really not suffering toxic withdrawal this time. DD1 and I chat about it off and on - refreshing change of subject away from lovely Middle Sister. DD1 can not stand her cousin (two years younger) who is very materialisticly spoiled. I find I remind dd1 that cousin's parents divorced (severe materialism wars) so to not be too hard on her (meaning check her sarcasm).
I really don't expect them to visit our home again. I had to have a baby for them to be inspired for this trip...and, well, that's not happening again.

My counselor is having me be nice to myself, too. I really didn't know how when she asked-I said I'd take a nap if I need one like all the time, lol and this isn't necessarily chocholate is it? . I put on my list a better wardrobe ("what not to wear" candidate here); and to let myself sew and garden.
I think it is also in the department of nurturing myself, as you suggest...which puts me in the mind of the "reparenting ourselves" that was discussed ages ago on this/previous thread.

Duffy, I used to try to kiss my parents and they used to kind of hold me at a distance away from them like they weren't comfortable, then over time they got more comfortable with it, but recently I HATE doing it. I don't even want them to stand too close to me. I feel revulsion and rejection towards them. Now it seems reversed and that they want me more than I want them.

Laweaselmys, I'm sat eating dry bread and water! You have many symptoms yet? Do you get the babycentre emails on the week by week development?

Re your post...its quite common for family members to act 'normally' round outsiders. That's what makes us doubt ourselves so much...other people saying 'oh their so nice!' or just a bit 'odd'. Your mother sounds a worse version of mine...I remember the spiteful comments and she often used to try to catch me starkers I had no privacy at all...my sister used to raid my room on a regular basis...my mother would go through my drawers...things moved...my sister would often tell mum a toy of mine was her's and mum would naturally go along with her... so now I'm very possessive over possesions, over food in the house (another area of possessiveness in the extreme with my family) and anyone breaking anything.

I found that breaking contact with my parents was a good thing for my parenting skills. They still affected it a lot even after as I was deep in FOG (fear obligation guilt) and felt I owed them as they 'wanted' me. Thing is I always feel, as AN said, rejecting and revulsion towards my mother. It is a big fear hurting my dd, I parent on a day to day basis, I look for her expression, now she's older, ask how she feels about things, just try to work out what is helpful for her and not helpful. Disapline is the hardest...I sometimes, because of my own feelings of inadequacy get too harsh, other times I'm too soft. Its a constant balancing act. However I'm hoping that with the insight that realising I have been abused brings, it will alter my dd's relationship with me enough to actually change the pattern, and hopefully the positive cycle I start will continue down the generations (big wish that!). She is a happy, sociable child, likes a few children, not all, but does speak with them and play alongside. She smiles a lot and is known for her laugh. So I hope I have done okay so far. Big test is having two children...I've left a 3 year gap so dd will be a playgroup 3 mornings a week, so that will give me a semi break I hope to recoup! All you can do is try to be the 'good enough' parent (as therapist said). Start looking now for role models, look in novels, tv personalities, friends, relatives...and if you can observe the children to see how happy they are. Think how you would have wanted to be treated.

Hope I haven't freaked you out or rambled too much Just realise you are only human and you can only do your best...but you are ahead of your mother already by realising you were abused...now you need to look further and see how it effects you in day to day life.

Smithfield, how are you today?

Itati, was it the tone of voice of dd that upset ds1 or dd wanting to tidy alone?

Flllight - I was the family joke too the humiliation is still with me.

Oneplusone - how are you doing?

TMSB - good your dd can discuss it and be aware of it all My mil used to come at the moving of furniture used to send dh out to work (he works with them) to 'not mention we put up the curtains!'. She's not so keen now Blooming in laws...get rid of nutty family and they take their place! So glad you don't have that hang over affect therapist must be a good one Do you have your stripy socks yet? All ladies with good taste have them you know...

Got to go now...take care all xx

I think they were more confused than upset really.

not looking forward to tomorrow.

I am just so tired, so stressed, so miserable..

Ally- Poor you, its not good is it.... the morning sickness. Dont worry it will pass soon enough. You have to take extra special care of yourself right now.

Im not doing to well at the moment Im afraid. Im even re-considering the whole contact scenario. Im not sure about anything anymore.
All I know is I cant bare this feeling much longer. That I dont want to get up and that Im sick with anxiety. Its not as bad as it is this morning every day but I just want to feel better.

Is it your solicitor tomorrow Itati? Confused is usually how I feel...

(((((Smithfield))))) reconsider contact? After I've had contact I tend to feel bad about my mother, feel I've deprived her, perhaps I'm in the wrong and she's reasonable afterall and if I just talked to her she would start to understand............hell I broke contact for the giggle it would give me.... we don't do this lightly do we? Have you got your AD's yet? Take a while to work I think? Hang on in there...when did she last contact?

Solicitor was last Friday and it was awful.

Really low tonight.

Worried about you Smithfield because you seem withdrawn and I know that is a bad sign! Isolating yourself warps your thoughts. Please post as it may help clarify your thoughts, even if they seem scrambled it might help unscramble them. Your instincts are probably the best thing to rely on. How do you feel when you think of seeing your parents? I have made a decision to see mine yet my insides are completely against it and I feel it is wrong for me. I am doing it for DH I think because he thinks it is the right thing and I feel I have to have his approval as without him I would feel alone. Sorry if I am talking crap, but I am pissed. I've been out with some normal respectable people and I could have stayed out so much longer but they are all tired. I thought about going to a pub on my own and talking to anyone who would listen but I decided against it in case I talk to men too much - I have a compulsion to get too inappropriately close to other men. So I have come home to MN and DH! I've beem reading Alice Miller's articles on her website earlier and it makes so much sense. I don't feel I should forgive or help when I read that. I feel I should feel the anger and say fuck off to the lot of them. I don't need them to love me anymore and I think they are SCUM! YOu don't need them. Get what you need elsewhere. They are not going to change. You CAN do it. You are better than them. Are you seeing your therapist at the moment? If not, would you consider going back? Mine is on holiday at the moment yet I feel I need someone to talk some sense into me. All I want to do is drink and drink, but when I'm drunk I want to do wrong things and have little self control. I want to do something extreme to get out my extreme feelings. Sorry about this post, I'm not censoring myself because I#m drunk. I want to tell you all I have learnt so much from you and had lots of enlightenment and I am really grateful. xxxxxx

Glad your anger is coming out AN Do you have any Alice Miller books?

Smithfield, agree with AN...come on...talk! You can't be supported if you don't ask for support. And you don't have to write a load of supportive posts before you talk about yourself (not that I do that...oh no!) Just spill. We'll be here to listen

((((Itati))))) why was it worse last night?

Because of everything we have going on at the moment with no support other than DH.

He has rung and we are meeting for lunch with the kids so that is something to look forward too.

Just put some dough on to make bread rolls to go with our beef burgers for tea so another nice thing.

Hi all.

AN it is GREAT that you are feeling your anger towards your parents. Why are you ignoring your true feelings about your parents? If your gut instinct tells you to keep away from them why don't you follow it? Your DH may think he knows what is the right thing to do but he is not YOU. He hasn't been through what you have been through so with respect, he can't possibly know what the right thing is for YOU.

I have been thinking what some of you have asked me about how i released the anger i had towards my mother. It's actually very difficult to explain but i think the key is to first access your suppressed anger. I think a number of factors have helped me to reach the point where i am now. I cut off my parents over 2 years ago and i think the physical and emotional space from them has been crucial in my being able to discover my true feelings about them which are rooted in my childhood. I also have a very supportive DH. He has given me the space that i need to 'work' on myself (sorry for the corny american phrase but it is accurate!). I have also been seeing a very good counsellor. I 'interviwed' 3 counsellors before i chose the one i am finally seeing. Alice Miller emphasises the importance of seeing an appropriate counsellor and her website gives guidance on questions to ask a potential counsellor in order to ensure he or she is actually going to be able to help you. But most of all i have spent a lot of time reading Alice Miller, I have all her books and also reading the 'reader's mail' section on her website which is really good. Posting on this thread and reading other people's experiences has also helped me enormously. All of these have given me the strength to face up to some very hard facts and i have learnt that the only way to get past the pain those facts have caused is to go through it.

I hope some of this at least makes sense and will be of help to you but i think this journey is a very individual one and ultimately we each have to find our own way through. It also takes a very long time and the onion analogy is great, i feel i have literally been peeling off layers and layers of 'stuff' ie thoughts, feelings and emotions to do with my whole family and also friends and so far it has taken 2 years and i think i have a while to go yet although i don't think there is actually an 'end' to this journey.

I have have uncovered yet another wave of anger at my 'mother'. I hate calling her my mother as she doesn't deserve the respect and goodwill that is normally associated with the name but i don't know what else to call her (apart from a cowardly, pathetic, spineless snake).

What really makes me angry about her is the way she has managed to cultivate an image amongst family and friends that she is great with children and that all children love her and that she knows how to play with them etc etc. When in actual fact she, this supposed 'natural with children earth mother' is the same person who stood by and watched and did nothing whilst her husband verbally attacked me when i was 11, calling me the most vile, hurtful names i had ever heard, words that were certainly totally undeserved and inappropriate for an 11 year old to be called. She is the same woman who did nothing to stop him, nothing to comfort or reassure me afterwards. She is the same woman who turned her back on me so many times when i was younger and needed her because i was unwell/depressed/worried/upset/in pain. She didn't even know i existed, she was only ever concerned with my 2 younger sisters, she spent all her time and energy on them and totally ignored me. Even when i told her once i felt left out and not really like part of the family she just ignored me and made no effort to include me more in things she did with my 2 sisters. I totally hate and despise her, as far as i'm concerned she is a spineless, pathetic coward who is most definately NOT good with children.

She only noticed i even existed after I had DD when she suddenly seemed to pop up in my life wanting what she thought was hers, her first grandchild. But she had no idea or perhaps just didn't care i had severe post natal depression amongst other health problems after i had DD and used to waltz into my flat and didn't even ask how i was. She would just go straight to DD and start cooing over her, no doubt in an effort to further cultivate her image of being great with babies and children.

Although my father abused me more overtly ie physical and verbal assaults and general nastiness and cruelty, i hate my mother far more than i will ever hate my father. At least with my father he was up front about how he felt, he made it clear he hated me and i was just one big hassle for him. My mother however pretended she cared, but each and every time i needed her she let me down, and that to me was far worse than anything my father did.

I had a letter from my parents recently in which they 'appeared' to apologise for their behaviour but at the same time they said they had no idea how i was feeling or why. Which makes their apology worthless and i know it's only because they want to get round me to see their grandchildren.

I have spent a long time this year also fretting about my relationship with my sisters and feeling upset that we seemed to have fallen out over the fact that i had cut off my parents. Ironically now my sisters and i have re-established a relationship i am now wondering why i bothered to spend so much time feeling upset over them. I have realised they are also toxic, just like my parents and of course it stands to reason, with parents like ours, they can't help being toxic. They have no awareness of the failings of our parents and are completely blind to the ways in which they too have been let down and i worry most about my niece who is only 2 months old. I know my sister will unconciously pass on my parents' toxicity to her daughter unless she gains some self awareness and insight herself.

I'm sorry for my long ramble, i haven't posted on here for a while, but it is always so theraputic to get these thoughts out of my head.

Smithfield, i just wanted to say hello. I notice from recent posts that you are not doing too well at the moment. I remember IME feeling down ususally precedes a new level of insight/awareness after which i usually felt a renewed sense of energy and vitality. Please post on here if you think it will help. x

sorry me again, my mother was also the one who never gave me any sympathy/compassion/hugs/cuddles when i fell over/hurt myself as a child. I remember as i got older i used to see other children who had hurt themselves go running over to their mummies crying to be met with concern and hugs. I used to just watch as it was all so alien to me. I learnt to just bottle up my feelings and not show or tell anyone if i was hurt and i know my mother preferred it that way as she had no love to give me, had no empathy for me. It makes me so mad that this is the woman who everyone, including my sisters, thinks is such a great mother. And she herself thinks she has been a great mother and can't understand why i want nothing to do with her.

Glad your angry Oneplusone Your mother is not the only one who cultivates the being good with children/babies image, my mother and mil do it too...both fil and dad are convinced they are great (because they have been told my mil/mother that they are great with children we guess ). I can tell you it was of great amusement to me and dh when for the first year of life dd screamed the place down if she so much as saw mil's face or body near her t'was priceless. Obviously upset to dd was not nice...we just kept her at a great distance from mil.

Your childhood sounds so painful...but your parents obviously suffer head in sand syndrome. To face your childhood I guess they would have to face up to their own. Makes me that your mother and father don't realise why their treatment of you was painful!! Just like to validate that your mother was not a good enough mother, no where near in fact and your father was not good enough either. Take off therapist hat now...they sound ruddy heartless, lacking compassion and empathy into the negative.

Itati, Good you have something to look forward too bit of nurturing for you! Just a thought, how about setting a timer for how long you will look at diaries etc? Just 15 minutes here and there? I imagine the thought of looking for hours will put you off like it would any job (let alone the upsetting contents).

Smithfield, come on lass! Get your booty on here and spill!

Great news - diaries are all done, school friend came up trumps with a letter of her memories of the time, and now I am just waiting for an appointment with a psychiatrist. (£1500 that one!) Let's hope I win and get all this back.

When I feel stronger I will be bale to help you guys as much as you have helped me. Thank you.

can i join in please? not sure i am strong enough to talk about everything though.

hi ally! Yep, i am sooo angry with her and especially as i know that right this very minute she is probably in 'victim mode' (as she has been for years) and I am the baddie (for depriving her from seeing her grandchildren - but, how can one become a grandmother without first having been a mother? is I'm sure a question that she has never bothered to ask herself) whilst my sisters are her rescuers (classic drama triangle).

I was having a bit of a laugh earlier as in the letter my parents said they wanted to meet up so we could talk (well they've had countless opportunities in the past to talk none of which they have taken up, so why are they willing now all of a sudden? I'm not falling for that one anyway) and i am half thinking that i will arrange to meet them. But not to talk.....I will wring both their bloody necks with my bare hands as part of my therapy and anger release........what do you think? should i do it?!

and the inevitable has happened, i have just realised my last remaining friend is a bit toxic too. I thought she was completely non toxic but as usual i was wrong. Every time we talk we talk about 'me and my parents' for a bit (she is always the one who brings it up not me) and i have found that she always seems to be on their side. ie she always wonders how they are feeling right now (ie they must be really upset and it's all my fault) and her parents were also abusive to her when she was a child but she has magnanimously managed to only see the postive in them and put all the bad stuff behind her etc etc.ie hidden message why am i so nasty to them and why can't i just forgive them?

Why i couldn't see her for what she is before is beyond me. I was clearly blind....but now i can see and i now have to work out whether to cut her out as well. She was a friend i have known for over 20 years so long before my current state of self awareness. I have made some new friends in the last year so if i cut her out the loss will be minimal if anything as she is definately toxic. And i would rather have no friends than toxic ones. I am seeing her on sunday and I will (secretly) put a few tests in her way and if she passes i will continue the friendship, if not then she gets the chop!

hi anangel, of course you can join in. No worries if you don't feel ready to post, just keep lurking and reading, and in your own time you may feel ready to post something. I'm sure you can see this thread is full of supportive, understanding, sympathetic and above all non-judgemental people, just reading it is very theraputic.

hello anangel, don't worry if you just feel like lurking for ages, I did! I hope you will find a place where you can realise you are not alone which I think is the greatness of this place.

I'm glad you're in a better place OnePlusOne... maybe if you call your friend up on the fact that she's basically unsupportive of your attitude/plan of action towards your parents and family she might realise and back off? Sometimes I think it's very difficult for friends to understand that the kind of behavior we're talking about here is constant and not just the one of disappointments everybody has with their parents.

ActingNormal - when I was drunk was the first time I realised I wasn't being irrational in being so hurt by my parents behaviour, as I realised another very drunk att friend of mine had been through a similar thing with her dad and we've had a good few years dealing with such dramas together. Sometimes it is very useful to stop hiding and confess what you feel!

Hey Ally, have been blessed with not too much sickness although had a few really bad days where I just felt sick and faint all the time it has more or less passed now, and am just sick in the evenings and when traveling, so feel quite lucky! Hope yours eases off too.
We seem to have matching possessiveness! I'm very possessive not so much of objects (am perfectly happy to mix all my stuff up with DP's and don't care whose is whose) but of personal space, if anybody moves around my furniture or rearranges my shelves I find it very stressful. I suppose it is just a territorial control thing, mother can try and mess with my head, but she cannot mess with my stuff because it is behind these walls which are mine.
You sound like you are doing a great job with your DD!! I think coming from any parenting PoV it's best if your kids understand what's going on and why, but from a past abuse kind of way it's even better because you're double checking that you're reacting appropriately, and if you get it a bit wrong sometimes everybody does... she certainly sounds happy!

On a personal note, did you find you were nervous when you found out you were having a DD? (or anybody else that has a DD, for that matter) For some reason I am more nervous about having a DD than a DS, I suppose because I feel like I will be more conscious of me as a child if it's a girl than a boy... Am sure I will by happy either way, but I can't help hoping this DC will be a DS...

Have been absent for a few days as decided i wanted to read Toxic Parents before I decide what to do next, but couldn't find it in a bookstore so will have to order it online... talked to my DP about whether he'd mind if I cut off my mother and he said he'd be supportive whatever I decided so that made me happy! I keep feeling guilty about it though, especially as I know she will be hurt when she finds out, even though I also feel like I have to for my DC's own good. Was thinking maybe if total cut off would cause too much drama I could arrange only irregular supervised at all times (ie by me, not anybody else who might overlook her behaviour) visits? Has anybody tried this or did that just drive you insane?? Don't want to add extra work of constantly fending off mother whilst also dealing with all inevitable drama of having a newborn.