"But we took you to stately homes" part 3

[oneplusone]

Sorry for starting part 3 if it has already been started but i logged on just now and found the previous thread has reached 1000 posts. And my title is not very inspiring, Ally90, please help!

Acting normal -I'm a bit confused by the link you make between my bro and my GF

Sorry I may have got confused,I just remember reading a post saying that there was no bad feelings toward GF because he had shown love, attention....but I may be recalling it incorrectly or maybe someone elses post???

You have had so much 'betrayal' in your life. How can you now expect to have a normal sense of trust. How could you possibly know 'who' to trust and when or how to trust them?

The way I see it is that all parents wether they are good parents or abusive parents provide a mirror for us and that's where we develop our sense of self.

I take this from beverley engle by the way but she says that having abusive parents is a bit like growing up in a hall of mirrors.

Your image of self has therefore been horrible mishapen and is not as it should be.

The betrayal of your trust by your GF, then your brother and then (and probably most significantly)by your mother.

So carrying this into adulthood you feel that a relationship with this man that hurt you (your brother) is ok, because they have devalued your sense of self worthand skewed your sense of what is and isnt acceptable.

Boundaries. boundaries. boundaries

So- you do need to hear otherwise? of course you do. You need a different mirror to refelct back to you.

SO....

You have a right to be angry. You have a right to be angry . you have a right to be angry!

We will tell you as many times as you need.

I am very drunk and sat here in tears.

It was DD1's birthday yesterday. Yet, my father rang her up wishing her happy birthday. He also told her not to bother ringing the landline as they have changed their number.

It's the first time my dad has contacted her since Xmas. I curiously asked her how grandad and nanna is getting along...and she said 'grandad told me not to tell you anything'.

So, no doubt, all of his bitter conversation, wishing my daughter a happy birthday..the rest was spent slagging her mum off (me) and that's why I told them to f off at xmas. No kid needs that, as they've heard too much over the years...and he's still at it.
I'd love to know what he said. I'm sure I'll pull it out of her and what he filled her head with.

On one hand, I have my so called best mate emailing her talking about me, cause ex bf told me I was a shit mum...etc
And now this.

Message withdrawn

sorry, not good at helping others at the moment, (((hugs))) tto all those who need them
I was wondering if anyone can help me, I think I know I am not depressed. I have ishoos / problems that need tackling. How on earth do I go about finding a therapist that can help me retrain the way I feel about stuff.
I know I need to face the past as well but have no idea where to start.
Thanks

Jingley - I chose my therapist from the internet - typed in psychotherapy, town where I live. He had the most qualifications and the longest experience. Phoned him up to see if he sounded ok and he did.

PurpleOne - Do you have to keep these people in your life and let them contact your children after all they have done to you?

Podmog - it really sounds like it is working even though it is hard. Don't give up, the hardest bit will be the most useful.

I've had a horrible weekend with 'friends' of DH. The woman manipulated me into doing something she knew would get me into an argument with DH because she enjoys watching it and stirring it and then pretending to be concerned - and I got sucked in when I should know better! (Me and DH nearly split up years ago because of her.) I never said anything at the time, I took all the blame myself so as "not to cause a scene". Then really angry with myself for not valuing my own feelings enough to speak - again.

So I've texted her saying told DH it was her fault etc. I know this is more cowardly than phoning her or saying it while we were there but I feel a bit better.

I really want to get rid of this ingrained habit of acting like everything is ok whatever someone does to me when I DON'T feel ok.

I could do without another 'toxic' person in my life right now. None of my 'real' friends would do what she did. I just tolerate seeing them because DH likes them and they are important to him.

I'm sorry not to be coming on to offer support (still got to reply to your post attila, I'll get there!) but my mother is upping the ante.

In town today with my dd just walking out from playgroup...notice someone on other side of road. my mother. I picked up dd who cried and screamed as she wanted to walk, and walked back the other way...could hear my mother shouting hello x to my dd...

get to car, calm down...thinking I'm calm (ha ha) and get home expecting mail from her...nope nothing.

2 this aft...ring on doorbell...i start shaking and there is something through door...typically now in a a4 clear perspex thingy. Copy of my first letter too her (in 2006) and a response under it...its written as if she never got my second letter (sent june 06) stating why I had broken contact (which she did respond to, so definately got it!). She's barmy...I'm seeing what your saying attila...snakes cut and chopped...

Dear ally

it is now over two years since your last contact with me. I am still waiting for the highlighted statements to be addressed (no contact for time being, there are unresolved issues which would benefit being talked about, it is my intention to revisit this with you....all these addressed in my 2nd letter to her...which she just seems to have forgotten?!) It is for my own emotional wellbeing (words I used...in second letter!) that I need some sort of non confrontational contact with you, either by the two of us meeting at a neutral venue, or by email (address given)

it is ALSO important for ME that you seek to understand MY feelings. I carried three children, I have lost two (she miscarried...I was about 6, don't remember details...strange blank about it?) My life has changed a great deal. I try to avoid any social events where other grandmothers will be, as conversation is bound to involve gc and it is too painful for me to cope with. Consequentley, I do not have any social life without your father. (she used to go shopping on a saturday morning...and go intermittantly to a church group once a month...no friends...). I need to come to town x village y and correspond, in order to feel some sort of closeness with you and gc. I feel all the better for it. I do not try to contact you with any malicious or menacing reasons in mind, only for my own sanity.

I am very sorry ally, but it is too cruel and callous for any child to ask their mother to forget that they exist, I just cannot (or will not I wonder?) do it, no matter how you may feel about ME

Next yr I will be recieving my Bus Pass and Pension. Give an old pensioner a break.

Mum.

You know I think this is hitting all the old buttons...emotional blackmail/aggression. I feel torn by it. I do feel her being in my village/town is an intrusive, at the least, move by her. Rining the doorbell and walking away is not normal. taking a bus to a town 10 miles away and walking 4 miles to a distant village is not normal. Deliberately (?) forgetting a letter spelling out her behaviour towards me...giving reasons for braking contact, responding to it...then forgetting it? is not normal!! I do notice the first para is normalish (disregarding missing letter) there is emotional martyrdom (point 7 on the TP list). Saying ''no matter how you may feel about ME' so what exactly am I meant to do with my feelings then? Stuff them away for another 28 years?

This is seriously messing with my head. My dh has refused to read any mail from her since day one as he sees it as toxic and he would rather not be exposed to it. And she wasn't his mum!! She's barking......and still wanting to smother me. I really do not exist. She has not once acknowledged my feelings...not once. Or tried to. Just talked of her own...

I have typed out my feeligns but the old methods are not working...may get stuck into a bottle of wine tonight...

what if I was pg and the stress of her being round caused problems? there again didn't faze her when i was 8mth pg or with a day old newborn...and all this is done in the name of 'love'. So weird and strange...

xxx

Ally

(((((((((((((((ally))))))))))))))))))))
Your Mother is as mad as a box of cut snakes. Therefore she is to be ignored. She is game playing.

Like the way NOT she wants you to acknowledge her feelings . No mention of how you feel which for her is par for the course.

This is all about power and control. You know that already. She still wants to exert that.

It likely came in perspex because she knows that you are going to glance upon it (as that material is transparant).

I think she has had a difficult time - but there again many people have and they don't all become toxic as a result. Its therefore no excuse or justification either for her past and present behaviours towards you. She is trying to justify her behaviours.

As for her last sentence, I frankly think she needs to give you a break. Notice its all about her again, there is no real attempt on her part to either acknowledge or address your feelings. Classic narcissitic behaviour to my mind. Infact I would go one stage further as she is still harrassing you in such a manner - a restraining order!!.

If she had not seen you and DD today do you think she would have still sent this missive?.

Hope the above helps you a bit, am sure others will advise too.

Oh you read my post. I would be delighted to read your opinions on my particular post in your own time. There's no urgency.

Attila x

Ally i have just read your post and slowly reading through the whole thread and just had to reply. I don't know the history and the previous relationship with your mum but from your post it sounds very simalar to my own feelings towards my mother.
You have replied to my thread earlier today and i want to thank you for that.
The effect the letter has had on you is exactly what she wanted, she wants you to question yourself, and mess with your head.
Mirroring what you have said to her as she has nothing left to say.
Please don't let her get to you.

thank you both for responding so quickly...i'm a bit of a mess validation is a wonderful thing

got to go for dh now and not burn tea...still feel shaky. will cling onto both of your thoughts!

xxxx

big hug to you Ally, I hope you get through this okay, and will realise in both heart and mind that she is as selfish/controlling/mad (etc.etc.) as she has always been.

Hope you manage to put her letter away and forget about her so you can enjoy your weekend.

xx (formerly Maisemor)

Dear Ally,
Trust yourself.
She is trying to "mess with your head", but you need to trust yourself. If the letter did not raise warm and fuzzy feelings of "awww, it is time to reconcile", then trust that. If you feel like you've been keel hauled across toxic barnacles in an acid ocean, then trust that.

You are not wrong, Ally.
Trust yourself that you do not need to be treated that way. You do not need toxic people in your life.

Trust your dh as well. He sounds like a wonderful man to maintain clarity: let him lead you through this.

Not only did she not acknowledge ANY of your feelings but it seems that she wants contact with you and your dc just to fit in with the other grandmothers. It isn't about having a relationship with you/your dc- it is about using you for her to have something to talk about.

TMSB with hand to ear-listen- "sssssssssssssssssssssssss".
------

Just so you know, I have self-doubt too. Middle Sister keeps popping into my head recently. It has been only since March 19 (not yet 2 months!) since I told her I "needed a break"...thoughts concerning how/when/if any contact would be made how awkward and "ick" it would be. That again may be my childhood training of "be nice" or my genuine generous nature coming through to even think about contact with her (but not seriously considering it).

My self-doubt comes from acknowledging the fact that my upbringing was crap and thus my brain did not get the emotional nurturing or training...so if my brain is "different"(emotionally handicapped?)how can I trust that I am right?
The facts of how she treats me (and how she treats DD1-undermining me as her mother) points to the truth of the matter and that is the justification/validation to cut ties. For me the emotions get muddled - family ties vs. toxic behavior...but the intellectual facts pull me out. It sounds cold, but the truth is it is needed to give me the self-respect I need to give myself in the overall picture of what is going on.
I am learning to trust myself more. Not easy or quick, though.

ally-I Just knew there was something afoot, dont know why. Well actually I do know why, probably beacuse you have been a bit quiet.

Im 'so' sorry your mum has reared her head again. Must be soooo frustrating to be put on the back foot like this.

If it's reassurance that you need look no further.

'....it is ALSO important for ME that you seek to understand MY feelings. I carried three children, I have lost two'

How does this excuse her treatment of you? As a mother yourself you know it doesnt. Just plain old emotional blackmail.

You were just a child at the time fgs.

Loss of a child or children should only serve to make you value the ones you have more. And why or how should a six year old need in any way to have an understanding of this.

But instead she was actively CRUEL to you. She does not deserve your consideration, she has not earnt it.

This is about YOU and YOUR family now Ally. Her feelings dont count because they dont need to. IMO she's already made them count to much, by offloading them on to you throughout your childhood, and beyond into adulthood.

Well SHe's had her chance....'she' blew it.

And just supposing you did reconcile...what exactly would change??? NOTHING. She has acknowledged nothing of the pain she has caused you...so you would HAVE to play 'jolly hockeysticks' with this woman and feel less of a person yourself as a result, because as you say you would have to stuff those feelings back down in order to have a relationship with her.
So putting her needs first and sacificing your own!! As she always has.

Her continuing lack of respect for you is highlighted by her need to STALK you and call to your DD...in order to satisfy her own selfish need to be a grandmother. WTF??

Agree with Atilla...retraining order? Maybe then she might (just might) take you seriously...or at least be FORCED TO RESPECT YOUR WISHES for once. And this is important Ally that she does because I know you are in the process of planning to extend your family which means this behaviour/harrasment MUST be nipped in the bud.
you do not need this...you deserve better.

Sorry rant over BUT she has made me cross!

could you tell.

Right, going to reply now to all your very kind responses

Attila...first response to your reply on thur 24th apr 16.34 to my previously posed question...I again don't feel I can say much...you have it all summed up again. Your parents needy/brother needy...they are all together in their little needy world and you are the 'independant' one (feels like my relationship with parents and sister). The lack of interest (oh boy is the grass greener on the other side!!! I wish!) in your children must hurt and grate...but again nothing that you can do. Breaking contact actually sounds like a good option though. What benefits you to be in contact with them? When you just get rejected? And get salt rubbed in the wound by the way they treat your brother? Would you consider confrontation? Do you think they would fight to remain in contact? I'm guessing their attitude now sums up their actions to you as a child?

Onto today (I sound so abrupt...its just my stream of conciousness...I'm like it in rl too!) Thanks for the hug...much needed! And validation I can see the power and control...the manipulation victim/persecutor... agree with justifying her behaviour, thanks for that. And again validation for her totally ignoring my feelings. I always feel I deserve her behaviour now as I've done such a 'bad' thing (as taught by her and society all my life). Yes I really would like a break! Yes she would have dropped off the letter...it was lucky on her part that she saw us. But she was in a strange place in town...and she must come often...that is the 3rd time I have seen her in 2 years...its small but still chances of bumping into someone...

2 beautiful girls - your welcome glad to see you here...really nice that something I said got through so hard to see someone suffer at the hands of a toxic mother and for them to walk away from any support...but so nice to see someone able to accept support Thank you for your validation...it meant alot to me esp so soon after I had posted

Hi More I never replied to your response to earlier in the thread either...I do remember you were doing better tho Thanks for the validation and wishes for the weekend...I will try and think of your words if I get sleepless...(if should be 'when'!!)

TMSB

lol

"If the letter did not raise warm and fuzzy feelings of "awww, it is time to reconcile", then trust that. If you feel like you've been keel hauled across toxic barnacles in an acid ocean, then trust that."

Umm...definately the latter when you put it like that!!

"Not only did she not acknowledge ANY of your feelings but it seems that she wants contact with you and your dc just to fit in with the other grandmothers. It isn't about having a relationship with you/your dc- it is about using you for her to have something to talk about."

So when did you meet my mum?! That is my mother to a T. Tho I do have to add that not having a grandmother figure herself and seeing me as her unreliable mother figure I do think she sees her role as 'rescuing' (fits nicely in the drama triangle ) dd from me as dd would be her as a child...iyswim...not that I have experienced this...but know her very well...always sided against me with my friends (that she openly disliked until we fell out) and sided with my sister...etc...said I sounded 'just like my mother' when I got really cross...I'm putting 2 and 2 together...I really don't want to experience the answer in rl...

As for your lovely ms...who is also barking...(still lol over maternity leave...mental) do you still feel a need to please her? I ask as you are speaking of thinking of but not getting in contact...again iyswim (and I'm drinking a glass of wine...does it show?) But you are reconditioning your brain so I suppose thoughts like this are natural...and you have a natural generosity of spirit...or is it 'rescuing' on the drama triangle?

Signing off now...got to clean out kittens litter tray and play with him...he's already climbed up my back once tonight...

Thank you again all...calm now...long may it last! I'll just lull myself to sleep with 'toxic barnacles, toxic barnacles, toxic barnacles" lol

allyxxxx

x post Smithfield!

I've been quiet (nice to be missed ) a) had kitten for two weeks! He is keeping me busy...b) just feeling generally withdrawn...you know like a hemit crab withdrawing into shell...bit depressed...think that is from last contact from mother

What you have said is ringing true for me. Esp "appreciating the children you have" crossed my mind today. It has put me on the back foot, again.

Your right, nothing has changed. Each time a letter comes I hope it will be one that acknowledges (deep down!) and it never does. Just toxic junk like this. "what about ME and MY feelings AND needs." Yes mum...I know too well about your feelings and needs...rammed down my throat thanks very much.

I love the 'FORCED TO RESPECT YOUR WISHES' yes I would LOVE to make her and my sister and father do that...but as I've not earnt it in 30 years...........I don't think I can earn their respect...goalposts keep moving...and my standing up to them is disrespectful to them in the extreme (in their minds) I'm just a naughty child that needs to be disaplined.

DH and I have discussed restraining orders (tho love the idea of a retraining order ) but cost/time/evidence etc...best thing I can do is just not respond. I do feel happy at times...esp thinking of having another child (unlike last time! Too much dread abotu my mother then)...I must just not let her win this battle over my mind...I'm reading beverly engel 'healing your emotional self' and that is helping...I can do this...mother did not beat me as a child...I survived her abuse...she won't do it to me now. I have a dh, a dd, a kitten, I have this thread, I know (deep down?) that I deserve an acknowledgement from my mother of her behaviour towards me and reasons for it. And genuine remorse. If I don't get that I don't budge. She's had 28 years to acknowledge the fact I have feelings...I'm still waiting!

Thank you for your anger I felt v angry after ring at doorbell!! Nearly ran after her to smack her round the face...but dd was in bed...and I don't want police round

thanks Smithfield
allyxxxxxxx

just reread my post- should say restraining order...not retraining, but hey maybe the latter could work also

x post Smithfield!

I've been quiet (nice to be missed ) a) had kitten for two weeks! He is keeping me busy...b) just feeling generally withdrawn...you know like a hemit crab withdrawing into shell...bit depressed...think that is from last contact from mother

What you have said is ringing true for me. Esp "appreciating the children you have" crossed my mind today. It has put me on the back foot, again.

Your right, nothing has changed. Each time a letter comes I hope it will be one that acknowledges (deep down!) and it never does. Just toxic junk like this. "what about ME and MY feelings AND needs." Yes mum...I know too well about your feelings and needs...rammed down my throat thanks very much.

I love the 'FORCED TO RESPECT YOUR WISHES' yes I would LOVE to make her and my sister and father do that...but as I've not earnt it in 30 years...........I don't think I can earn their respect...goalposts keep moving...and my standing up to them is disrespectful to them in the extreme (in their minds) I'm just a naughty child that needs to be disaplined.

DH and I have discussed restraining orders (tho love the idea of a retraining order ) but cost/time/evidence etc...best thing I can do is just not respond. I do feel happy at times...esp thinking of having another child (unlike last time! Too much dread abotu my mother then)...I must just not let her win this battle over my mind...I'm reading beverly engel 'healing your emotional self' and that is helping...I can do this...mother did not beat me as a child...I survived her abuse...she won't do it to me now. I have a dh, a dd, a kitten, I have this thread, I know (deep down?) that I deserve an acknowledgement from my mother of her behaviour towards me and reasons for it. And genuine remorse. If I don't get that I don't budge. She's had 28 years to acknowledge the fact I have feelings...I'm still waiting!

Thank you for your anger I felt v angry after ring at doorbell!! Nearly ran after her to smack her round the face...but dd was in bed...and I don't want police round

thanks Smithfield
allyxxxxxxx

well never posted twice before

yes retraining order an excellent idea...

Hi Ally,

What has hurt me the most is their apparant lack of interest in my son (as things are this will be both parents and ILs only grandchild) but I know that I can do nothing to change my parents' behaviours. That is hard to accept and I am coming to terms with it but it's literally taken years. I can only change how I myself react to them. Distance and infrequent phone contact are good things and both work for me. I feel happier as a result.

I think what I should do now is also talk to a counsellor.

As for cutting off all contact I have thought often about doing that but why should I be the one who will come out looking the villain of the piece by doing such a thing?. It does not just affect me though am sure my DH, bless his heart, would back me.

Living well is the best revenge I say!. And we do this so stuff em!!!.

With regards to your own Mother do not give her any power. With her its all about power and control; she still wants both over you.
She will never apologise for her actions because she in all likelihood does not believe she has done anything wrong. Toxic people simply cannot be reasoned with.

You may go onto receive more correspondence from your Mum. Do you have a set plan of action should this happen?. I would have either ceremonial burning ceremony in your back garden or a ceremonial shredder ceremony.

Retraining order sounds good!. Think I'll put my parents and ILs onto such a thing!.

BTW I completely agree with your comment to BlueSky and hope that she reads this particular thread.

With best wishes

Attila x

Hi Ally-
Drama Triangle re: Middle Sister and ...my thoughts popping into my head about her.
I think you are right: it is from deep training from her to rescue her (Yes, MS, Thank you, MS). She the Old Maid dependent on TMSB and the kindness (tolerance ) of my entire family to see that she isn't alone-especially on holidays. Something she no doubt took for granted. However, we made it through Easter with no contact - I hardly noticed with new dd2.

Wanting to please her: this was the main bell of the clarion that sounded off over Christmas. I cleaned dd1's room 100%; MS sweeps in and does her inspections on arrival...she pronounced amazement at how clean it was- cleaner than ever before! And there I was proud as a child getting a gold star. And then the self humiliation finally crystallized and the reality of her diminishment of me could not be denied any longer (7 months pg or not).

So wanting to please her... the "right thing to do" would be to invite her to meet her new niece...I just can't do it.
What would the point be? Just to check it off a chart: at least I did ?
And I can hear her initial response would be something sarcastic (a la "am I sure") and I'd say forget it (along with "you still have your head up your a**).

Thanks! Knowing that is where it is coming from helps so much. Any thoughts of her will have to be put through the filter of the drama triangle because that is just the fact of life with MS. I don't owe her anything.

When people seek me out it is usually to use me in some way. I know that may seem paranoid to some, but it has been the truth time and time again that I have had to train myself to pause and look for the hidden agenda. The little voice in the back of my mind says "watch out"- so I say no with out even knowing why. Often times later I find out that indeed there was a hidden agenda to use me. (Often I do say, "no, you'll just have to use someone else"...not emphasizing "use" but they hear it.)

It seems with your mom that the agenda is pretty much always against you no matter what the context or era (life stage). If you say the sky is blue, she'll argue the point. If she asks you what time it is, and you tell her; she'll ask someone else to verify. You are her narcissistic supply and she can't or won't see you in any other way.
MS can not see me in any other way than as a child.

I suddenly feel better about not having her in my life...like clarified justification/validation.

Thanks.

Good luck. Sorry I don't know about the logistics of physical distancing yourself from someone determined to interfere. But just don't let her wear you down.

Ladies here this lady needs some support...

tmsb...yeah I helped!!

Hi all, can I join this thread?

When Ally9o recommended it to me I wasn't sure if I would fit in here. My Mum is very controlling and manipulative. I wasn't sure if you could call that abuse though. After reading some of your threads I now know that that is exactly what it is! She has always been emotionally abusive and I can totally relate to what some of you have been through and are still going through.

My Mum has always had a favourite out of me and my older brother, depending on who was more accommodating to her wishes at the time. Usually my brother! This almost set us up in competition with eachother when we were young. She would be all over one of us but ignoring the other one or even putting them down. Even now it affects us and we try not to mention her when we speak on the phone, which isn't very often.

My Mum needs everything her own way and if you don't go along with what she wants then there is something wrong with you. I always thought that I was everything she told me I was (ugly, fat, argumentative and basically a horrible and hideous person) but I am starting to realise that I'm not.

I went through a stage of hurting myself when I was about 15. I would get a blunt knife and cut at my arms and the tops of my legs. just to release my anger and frustration. I didn't really know why I was doing it at the time though. My teacher at school found out and called my Mum in. She didn't speak to me for a wk apart from saying how ashamed she was and how there was something wrong with me in the head. I've never done it since but looking back now I can see exactly why I was doing that.

I can't go through everything thats happened as I'd be here all day and night but you get the idea.

I think you are all amazing to have been through much worse than I have and to be so strong as you are. It's truly inspirational.

Hi MannyK

You are a survivor of emotional abuse that was controlling in nature. Your Mother continues to want to control you. Do not for one second think that what you've been through to date is somehow "less" worse than what you're read on this thread or any other like it because it is not. Emotional abuse is just as damaging as physical abuse.

The website www.controllingparents.com may help you too as it has lots of resources about controlling parents and the affects on children now adults. There is a book on there that you may want to get a copy of eventually (it should be on Amazon). Its called "If you had controlling parents" by Dr Gary Neuharth.

If you have not already sought out counselling it may be something you may wish to consider too. BACP have a list of counsellors www.bacp.org.uk.

With best wishes

Attila x

Hi MannyK

You are a survivor of emotional abuse that was controlling in nature. Your Mother continues to want to control you. Do not for one second think that what you've been through to date is somehow "less" worse than what you're read on this thread or any other like it because it is not. Emotional abuse is just as damaging as physical abuse.

The website www.controllingparents.com may help you too as it has lots of resources about controlling parents and the affects on children now adults. There is a book on there that you may want to get a copy of eventually (it should be on Amazon). Its called "If you had controlling parents" by Dr Gary Neuharth.

If you have not already sought out counselling it may be something you may wish to consider too. BACP have a list of counsellors www.bacp.co.uk.

With best wishes

Attila x